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Cadaver_Junkie

Unbalanced Hiring?

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When hiring models that belong to your faction, that do not share Keywords, you can hire them for +1 SS.

Is this a little unbalanced, skewed towards the big guys?

Teddy: + 10% hiring fee
Sorrow: + 20% hiring fee
Oiran: gone? Have they been removed?
Iron Skeeter:  + 14% hiring fee
The First Mate: +11% hiring fee
Flying Piglet: +33% hiring fee

 

Under the new method, I can't see any efficient way to hire non-core cheaper models into your crew.
Sure, there'll be ways to make it work, but it will always be more efficient to hire the big guys.

1 Teddy is cheaper than two sorrows.
 

Thoughts?

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It qas an issue thar was brought up in the CB, but it seems the simplicity of +1 is preferred over several options that deal with the issue you're having, but are either harder to explain, or harder to figure.

Also, Oiran are now Kunoichi, and part of QI&GONG. A few models had name changes.

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I know cheaper models are now less 'worth it' with the +1 out of theme cost, but after playing m3e for a few months, I don't think I would take most out of theme cheap minions if they removed the out of theme cost totally (don't do that tho! ha).  Themed minions just add so much to the crew and make everything run smoother.  The only holes I've need to plug are big beaters, healers and counter tech pieces, which I'm happy to pay the surcharge.

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If we are tossing out ideas, I think it would be neato if hiring another Master allowed you to take their keywords without the upcharge as well. So I could pick Nekima as my leader, pay 13(12+1) for Dreamer, and then hire Coppelius without the upcharge.

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26 minutes ago, BreckenHipp said:

If we are tossing out ideas, I think it would be neato if hiring another Master allowed you to take their keywords without the upcharge as well. So I could pick Nekima as my leader, pay 13(12+1) for Dreamer, and then hire Coppelius without the upcharge.

...and then hire rest of Dreamer's crew, and no Nephilim. Declare "nephilim", go "nightmare", trick your opponent at no additional cost at all. Bad idea.

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1 minute ago, Jingizu said:

...and then hire rest of Dreamer's crew, and no Nephilim. Declare "nephilim", go "nightmare", trick your opponent at no additional cost at all. Bad idea.

It absolutely adds the ability to trick someone, I totally agree. But by doing this you've given up the synergies of your Leader, any Leader specific abilities that work off of keywords, and you've spent a hefty investment to do so. You won't be taking advantage of Meat For The Young, you won't be using Enraged by Insolence, etc. Your "Waking Dream" is still Plentiful 2, not Plentiful 5, so you are playing a nerfed Dreamer crew at that point, if you went full nightmare instead of bringing nephilim.

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Just now, Fetid Strumpet said:

I don’t see what advantages the suggested change bring to the game to make it a better game overall. I’d personally not like to see such a change.

That's totally fair. I was just trying to solve OP's issue of minions being inefficiently costed when purchased out of theme. Paying 4 instead of 3 for a minion is a huge deal, but the Master idea is sort of a "bulk discount." I wouldn't argue seriously about it making the game better unless I had play tested the idea successfully, which I haven't done.

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Ok, so I declare "Outcast, Viktoria", hire two Viktorias for 0ss (no synergy with other Mercenaries) and the rest of the crew is something totally else (except for Tara, as she summons), at the cost of 1 ss. Why even declare leaders then?

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10 minutes ago, Jingizu said:

Ok, so I declare "Outcast, Viktoria", hire two Viktorias for 0ss (no synergy with other Mercenaries) and the rest of the crew is something totally else (except for Tara, as she summons), at the cost of 1 ss. Why even declare leaders then?

Couldn't you pay the same argument for the current system though? You can still declare Outcast, Viktoria, and then buy whatever you want. Viktoria certainly seems more reasonable to take this approach with than most Masters, as her synergies rely more on just the other Viktoria than having much to do with mercs in general. However, in the current system, you can really only do it for elite crews, or you've paid a lot of stones for very little gain.

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14 minutes ago, BreckenHipp said:

Couldn't you pay the same argument for the current system though? (...) However, in the current system, you can really only do it for elite crews, or you've paid a lot of stones for very little gain.

You answered yourself ;) Currently the trick probably isn't worth the price, but at 1ss cost it would be too good not to consider.

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The main reason the out of theme tax exists is because the range of models in Malifaux has become so huge that it became impossible to balance every model against every other model in it's faction. It was also to try and stop "all star" crews from each faction. So you're really not meant to play out of theme models at all. I'm sure if Wyrd thought they could get away with it they'd make it outright impossible to take out of theme models at all. So, if you take a crew made up of out of theme models it will be severely unbalanced, both in costs and in stats. This seems to be a thing in 3e unfortunately. You can take out of theme models in your crew, but you're crew wont be as good as one which stayed entirely in theme, just like you can take a henchman as your leader, but your crew wont be as good as one led by a master, or you can take a master who gets a free 2SS totem, but your crew won't be as good as one whose master gets 7SS totem for free, etc.

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I would disagree that I answered myself. It isn't just 1ss, it is 1ss with the additional cost of buying the master to obtain the keyword. If you thought that Sorrows were super good, for example, you wouldn't just be paying 15ss instead of 18ss to take 3 sorrows. To obtain that discount you would have to have invested in Pandora, which now means you've spent 31ss to save 2. Yes, you did get something for your money, but you also invested so heavily that it is hardly "just 1ss."

Anyway, I don't want to sabotage OP's thread any further. I think unfortunately Shadowdragon is right, and really the idea is to try and dissuade people from playing outside of keyword as much as possible, and I expect this to tighten more rather than loosen up.

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46 minutes ago, BreckenHipp said:

I would disagree that I answered myself. It isn't just 1ss, it is 1ss with the additional cost of buying the master to obtain the keyword. If you thought that Sorrows were super good, for example, you wouldn't just be paying 15ss instead of 18ss to take 3 sorrows. To obtain that discount you would have to have invested in Pandora, which now means you've spent 31ss to save 2. Yes, you did get something for your money, but you also invested so heavily that it is hardly "just 1ss."

Anyway, I don't want to sabotage OP's thread any further. I think unfortunately Shadowdragon is right, and really the idea is to try and dissuade people from playing outside of keyword as much as possible, and I expect this to tighten more rather than loosen up.

The downside of all this for me, is that I only have one Neverborn master (Titania) and a LOT of different Neverborn models that helped her run different Schemes and Strats, or themed games. Not "dual bubbles of you can't attack me" cheese crews, but things like "lots and lots of WP duals that's not Pandora" crews. I have Sorrows, but I'm not planning to buy Pandora, and now my Sorrows will likely be shelved. Sad face.:(

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Fluff wise, two masters bringing a few of their peeps each to face off against someone makes a lot of sense and feels weird(unwyrd 😏) that you can't do it(without a surcharge).

 

The only dual master crew I've tested so far was having somer teeth as a second master tho, to avoid that issue by summoning his crew in later. So that both proves that it's a dissuading factor and also suggests some masters will be more appealing than others when faced with the issue. We may see alot of crews taking summoners as a second master in their metas as a result

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5 hours ago, rawshark said:

Fluff wise, two masters bringing a few of their peeps each to face off against someone makes a lot of sense and feels weird(unwyrd 😏) that you can't do it(without a surcharge).

 

The only dual master crew I've tested so far was having somer teeth as a second master tho, to avoid that issue by summoning his crew in later. So that both proves that it's a dissuading factor and also suggests some masters will be more appealing than others when faced with the issue. We may see alot of crews taking summoners as a second master in their metas as a result

With the significant restriction on those summonings, I wouldn't count on it so much.

Most Summoners have to attach an Upgrade to their Summons. When they're crew Leader, that's usually Plentiful (5). Meaning you can have up to 5 summons on the table. When it's not a Leader, it's Plentiful (2). Having Sandeep, Dashel or Somer only able to have two Summons on the table at any point, is a significant limitation for them. Because unless both are gone, they tend not to be so great to waste an action on summoning. Tara and Dreamer have better Summons, but without the crew to support it (giving out Fast and failing WP tests respectively), it's harder to put them in play.

This was done during the Closed Beta specifically because hiring in Summoners was too potent for the exact reason you're considering.

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The out-of-keyword hiring had a lot of discussions. AFAIK the reasons it went with +1 are:

1) simplicity
2) low cost models are more spammable so if you get one wrong you end up with 3 changelings in every NB crew for example.
3) If a 10SS model is overcosted and should cost 9 you still might consider it for synergies because its 11% too expensive. If a 5SS model is overcosted  its 20% too expensive.

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I appreciate everyone's feedback on the updated hiring system in M3E. That being said, this has been playtested for months and will not be seeing any adjustments in the Open Beta. From a hiring perspective, we are only taking a look at the cost of individual models in comparison to their worth at this time. 

 

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On 1/21/2019 at 11:09 PM, Kyle said:

I appreciate everyone's feedback on the updated hiring system in M3E. That being said, this has been playtested for months and will not be seeing any adjustments in the Open Beta. From a hiring perspective, we are only taking a look at the cost of individual models in comparison to their worth at this time. 

 

Thank you.

 

Just a question though, as I was not in the closed beta.

Were multiple hiring costs on the same card considered?

 

That is, instead of having a single cost like 10SS for a Teddy, you have two; 10SS/12SS
Where the first cost is for hiring with shared keyword, the second is for outside that range.

You could remove the 'Versatile' keyword altogether, a versatile Teddy would just be 10SS/10SS.

Cheap models that shouldn't be easily splashed could be 5SS/7SS
Other cheap models could be 5SS/6SS to encourage some use outside keywords, versatile as 5SS/5SS.

A powerful model easily splashed might be 11SS/12SS.
A powerful model that shouldn't be splashed frequently outside keywords could even be 11SS/14SS.

You could use this to adjust masters that will be more powerful as secondary hires compared to other masters.

 

Allows for a larger points resolution in hiring crews, and would look neat on the new huge cards. Plus added easy flexibility in managing nerfs or buffs down the track.

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It was not that I saw, though I definitely suggested the idea of models having a cost for hiring and a "cost" for summoning, to try and separate those two things out to fix the "never hire, only summon" and vice versa models.

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7 hours ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

Thank you.

 

Just a question though, as I was not in the closed beta.

Were multiple hiring costs on the same card considered?

 

That is, instead of having a single cost like 10SS for a Teddy, you have two; 10SS/12SS
Where the first cost is for hiring with shared keyword, the second is for outside that range.

You could remove the 'Versatile' keyword altogether, a versatile Teddy would just be 10SS/10SS.

Cheap models that shouldn't be easily splashed could be 5SS/7SS
Other cheap models could be 5SS/6SS to encourage some use outside keywords, versatile as 5SS/5SS.

A powerful model easily splashed might be 11SS/12SS.
A powerful model that shouldn't be splashed frequently outside keywords could even be 11SS/14SS.

You could use this to adjust masters that will be more powerful as secondary hires compared to other masters.

 

Allows for a larger points resolution in hiring crews, and would look neat on the new huge cards. Plus added easy flexibility in managing nerfs or buffs down the track.

or keep it simple with samething like:

+1 Minions

+2 Enforcers

+3 Henchmen

+4 Master

=> Teddy 10SS (+2SS for Enforcer ) = 12SS

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4 minutes ago, PeterParkerPlays said:

or keep it simple with samething like:

+1 Minions

+2 Enforcers

+3 Henchmen

+4 Master

=> Teddy 10SS (+2SS for Enforcer ) = 12SS

If you're willing to pay X+3 for a henchman outside of his keyword then he's most likely severely undercosted in the keyword, where he is suppose to have the most synergies.

 

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Just so you know:

We went through a lot of brainstorming in the Alpha about hiring. I think the current solution is a mix of simplicity/enforcing keywords/allowing mixing in and while it's not perfect, the only better solution I see is : individual keyword/non-keyword costs for each model. But looking at the current state of the game, I think it would be a giant mess.

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My biggest issue with hiring is how in some crews, the vision of playing a thematic crew doesn't jam with rock-papers-scissors part. 

Thus some crews who have more models in the theme or have a greater set of tools is inherently more efficient than the crews that don't. Which becomes a little bit of an issue if the focus lies on balancing singular models against one another.

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