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Gunsmiths (+Ironsides)

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4 minutes ago, Gesuma said:

I love what they did to Ironside but I am disappointed they did not put IWA on her totem now that they removed it from Ironsides. I guess they actually wanted to nerf the crew overall beside reworking Ironsides a bit. I do not like the inflexibility of only having IWA on one model in the crew :(

Oh, absolutely IWA was nerfed, so your opponent has a chance to remove it before the gunsmiths remove them (their Grit being the strongest next to that of Ironsides herself). Not adding IWA to a Sz1 model that can hide behind the rest of its crew while projecting the aura, not sure that was intentional.

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1 hour ago, cbtb11235813 said:

We are back to never, ever leaving home without Amina. Not the worst thing in the world, but I just don't think a Henchman should be so necessary to the crew. 

Aside from that, Ironsides is looking better than she has in quite a while. Her grit is really interesting, in that once it is activated, Ironsides can just declare intimidation and automatically get an Adrenaline regardless of what you flip. Also with her melee, you can fail an attack and still get adrenaline (I think the "additional damage" clause on follow through means you actually need to hit with her for that to happen)

The loss of Injured Workers hurt but I can live with the other changes. Apparently they want to guarantee that you play the M&SU ball instead of two separate fire teams. 

I don’t think it really affects her playability much. This was the part where I was worried the update would hurt us and it wasn’t too bad (relatively) though I would have rather they had changed the trigger to after damage and left IWA....

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2 hours ago, cbtb11235813 said:

Her grit is really interesting, in that once it is activated, Ironsides can just declare intimidation and automatically get an Adrenaline regardless of what you flip. Also with her melee, you can fail an attack and still get adrenaline (I think the "additional damage" clause on follow through means you actually need to hit with her for that to happen)

I wish they'd done a little more with her after succeeding triggers becoming after resolving. Intimidation is a simple duel that is already going off on a 5, so no big gain there, and while it is nice to get adrenaline on her melee even on a miss (while grit is up) it ends up being the only real trigger that functions with her grit other than cage fighter, which is significantly worse that what she used to have.

I'll definitely have to test her out on the table, but I'm worried that if the M&SU crew is only really playable as a single deathball then they'll simply be too niche to see real play, which would be very sad if it is the case. Maybe the new Gaining Grounds will end up with super centralised schemes which reward clumping up, but I have my doubts...

At least Caught in the Ring looks quite strong.

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So, here's how to gain/use Adrenaline in the final version:

Gain

  • Quell the Riot: 1 on activating, +1 per engaging enemy (snuggle up to those 0" enemies)
  • Brass Knuckles: 1 on trigger built in, +1 with suit on card, +1 for stoning, you get it on success or fail when you hit Grit
  • Intimidation: same as above
  • Mouse: 1 on :ToS-Fast:, +1 if Ironsides is 1/2 health or below (not affected by IWA)

Use

  • Pumped Up: spend 1-3 to reduce damage to min 0
  • Brass Knuckles: spend 1-2 to add that much damage - cannot do this and gain Adrenaline
  • Bring It: Spend 1 to heal 2, you get it on success or fail when you hit Grit
  • Second Wind: Spend 2 to take an Action or end Conditions

 

So on an average turn she can expect to reliably get 2 from QtR and Mouse, maybe 3 if she's engaging something.  She'll likely want to spend 2 to actually use Second Wind, leaving her with 1.  Let's say she gets to attack all four times, and she gets a tome on the first hit.  The double tome gives her 2 Adrenaline, up to 3 now.  Second attack she can spend both of them for min 4, back down to 1.  Third attack she gains 1 Adrenaline, up to 2.  Last attack she can either spend those for another min 4 hit or save them to block 2 damage.

Okay, I'm officially concerned.  I can't see how she possibly has the Adrenaline Token input anymore to even really just camp Tokens and try to tank.  Suggestions: drop the built-in :ToS-Ram: from Brass Knuckles and replace Follow Through with Critical Strike / replace her Grit with something like "When this model deals damage it may discard an Adrenaline Token to deal +1 damage" / add "When this model suffers damage, it gains an Adrenaline Token" to QtR or PU.  Thoughts?

  • Agree 3

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1 hour ago, retnab said:

Okay, I'm officially concerned.  I can't see how she possibly has the Adrenaline Token input anymore to even really just camp Tokens and try to tank.  Suggestions: drop the built-in :ToS-Ram: from Brass Knuckles and replace Follow Through with Critical Strike / replace her Grit with something like "When this model deals damage it may discard an Adrenaline Token to deal +1 damage" / add "When this model suffers damage, it gains an Adrenaline Token" to QtR or PU.  Thoughts?

I mean, this was the last update right? We have to wait on Errata now if it's a problem.

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25 minutes ago, Jinn said:

I mean, this was the last update right? We have to wait on Errata now if it's a problem.

They may still change things between now and release, but I doubt it. Kinda sucks to get an overhaul right at the end with no time to test. If she goes to print as is I think it's time for me to shelve Ironsides, which makes me very sad. At least until a new GG makes having your entire crew balled up viable 

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Well it looks like they want Amina to be the real M&SU master. Injured Workers Act is essential for the synergy of the crew, I cant believe they took it from Toni.
Im really sad with the changes, is imposible keep all modes in 6 UM and is not practical. I have not idea what to do with Howard now, he is so grit dependent, if the was nimble at least....
To make things worst Toni doesnt win adrenaline with the defensive trigger any more :(, Caught in the Ring looks a cool ability but now with less adrenaline she is easier to kill and easier to avoid because now there is going to be only one big bubble of models.
 

In my opinion those are really big changes to the end of the beta. We need to test how it works now because this change the whole crew.

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10 hours ago, Sabbac said:

Well it looks like they want Amina to be the real M&SU master. Injured Workers Act is essential for the synergy of the crew, I cant believe they took it from Toni.
Im really sad with the changes, is imposible keep all modes in 6 UM and is not practical. I have not idea what to do with Howard now, he is so grit dependent, if the was nimble at least....

You are absolutely right

Quote


To make things worst Toni doesnt win adrenaline with the defensive trigger any more :(,

CRAP...... I missed that when they posted! I hope this is a typo/oversight and they give her the adrenaline back on the Defense Trigger. 

This is a HUGE knock to her.

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22 minutes ago, thewrathchilde said:

CRAP...... I missed that when they posted! I hope this is a typo/oversight and they give her the adrenaline back on the Defense Trigger. 

This is a HUGE knock to her.

They'd have to give her a new trigger or add it onto one of her other abilities, the trigger's borrowed from Bishop and he doesn't care about Adrenaline.  Just making it so she gains an Adrenaline when she suffers damage'd probably be the best, give you a reason to not reduce everything down to min 1 while also making it Stunned-proof.

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11 minutes ago, retnab said:

They'd have to give her a new trigger or add it onto one of her other abilities, the trigger's borrowed from Bishop and he doesn't care about Adrenaline.  Just making it so she gains an Adrenaline when she suffers damage'd probably be the best, give you a reason to not reduce everything down to min 1 while also making it Stunned-proof.

Since IWA is stil a thing I think they should put it on Mouse - then the opponent also have a target a bit easier to take down to cripple the M&U and Amina would not be the sole most important model in the crew and they would be a bit more flexible as the crew can actually split up then!

That I see as the number one thing while the crew still have several models too depended on the grit :(

  • Agree 5

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Yikes... An overhaul on the last update? Doesn't that kind of defeat nearly the entirety of her beta up until now? Did Toni really even need an overhaul? Adrenaline is the lifeblood of Ironsides and now who the hell even knows how she's going to play? On first glance it looks like generating it is going to be harder since she lost it from her Df trigger. In my games that was the primary source of how I generated it so I have no idea where she stands and I kind of feel like a lot of testing went down the toilet. 

I do like her change to more of a tarpit as a means of separation from Mei (who has always been a more capable ass kicker) so that part is cool. Just maybe not in the final week of beta.... My impressions (and that of others it appears) is that she's lost just as much as she gained and is going to live with some severe under testing. I remember in M2E when she got under tested and it took years before she finally got to a good spot and I have fears we may be repeating past mistakes. 

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well I've got 0 interest in iron-sides now, at least when she had IWA you could form 2 death bubbles 1 round her and 1 round amina. 

 

no you can't and 3/4 strategies promote spreading out (to a degree reckoning also promotes spreading out) 

sorry ironsides you spent the last 6 months in the box being ignored for other masters, your going to spend the start of m3e in the box too... unless i sell the rest of the M&SU

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Got in a game tonight and Ironsides got flattened.  It was one of her worst possible matchups (Levi), but a lot of the damage she took was not irreducible.  She barely gained any Adrenaline all game, and she definitely would have gained a good chunk more if she was still getting them from her defense trigger.  Also, she now has Staggered built-in in melee now, which is very nice!  Rusty Alyce being slapped for Staggered and :-flip to Disengage means she's unlikely to go anywhere.

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Her new direction is certainly more akin to her M2E version of locking down models, which is fine in theory but I wonder how it actually works in practice. I feel like the thought process was to pull models into Toni and have them unable to leave (and to be fair, your pretty much not leaving unless you have some pushes) and that will lead to her generating more adrenaline via enemy engagements instead of her Df trigger. 

However when I look at it, it's now MUCH more attractive to just hit her now. Disengaging is just not going to happen between the negative flips and staggered and as an opponent I won't even bother trying. However now that her Df trigger has been neutered to hell, it's in my best interest to just wail on her, forcing her to lower her adrenaline, which means less to use offensively.

So by making her more of a tarpit, I actually feel like you've made the decision so much easier for the opponent. There just isn't really any reason not to attack her now. She won't hit back nearly as much and it'll force her to burn her only means of damage via adrenaline.

So in reality, yes she can lock down a model now, but to what end? Her damage output is so much lower and the opponent is much less scared to actually attack her now. Where as before it actually made sense to try and escape her because every hit was guaranteed to take something in return. 

I feel like Toni was so close to good prior to this update. Myself and a good many other people just thought she needed a little bit more adrenaline but was otherwise in a pretty decent spot. I just don't see how this overhaul was warranted, especially this late in the beta. By this point, she should release as she was and if she needs addressing, then we can look at her when we get to errata's.  Making this big of a change this late is only going to lead to problems. 

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Just a thought,

but would it help if Brass Knuckles had Critical Strike instead of Follow Through to solve the "Adrenaline for damage or survivability" question.

and to make the tarpit a bit more sticky:

Quell the Riot: At the start end of this model's Activation, ...

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The reason her defense trigger got nerfed seems to be because some people have issues with getting hurt when attacking her and one of her bigger problems is not getting enough Adranelin. Maybe the answer is to make her defense trigger a gaurantee again and then give her a bounce of adrenelin she can use both offensively or defensively?

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Posted my batrep, and I think all in all I'd like the following changes:

Put IWA on Mouse so Amina doesn't feel mandatory (dropping his Grit if he feels too good) or as I've mentioned before make IWA something all the Hench have with a reduced range

Remove the :-flip to disengaging from caught in the ring (it plus Staggered is maybe overkill), replace her Df trigger with something like "When Resolving, this model gains an Adrenaline. If this Action is a :melee Action, the Attacking model suffers 2 damage and gains Staggered" so its focused less on killing and more on control and tanking, and change her Grit to either basically be HtW or be something that increases her efficiency, like "When it discards one or more Adrenaline Tokens it counts as having discarded an additional one." (The latter may be overkill though)

Have enemies engaged by her be at a :-flip to Intimidation's Wp duel

Thoughts?

  • Agree 1

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1 minute ago, retnab said:

Posted my batrep, and I think all in all I'd like the following changes:

Put IWA on Mouse so Amina doesn't feel mandatory (dropping his Grit if he feels too good) or as I've mentioned before make IWA something all the Hench have with a reduced range

Remove the :-flip to disengaging from caught in the ring (it plus Staggered is maybe overkill), replace her Df trigger with something like "When Resolving, this model gains an Adrenaline. If this Action is a :melee Action, the Attacking model suffers 2 damage and gains Staggered" so its focused less on killing and more on control and tanking, and change her Grit to either basically be HtW or be something that increases her efficiency, like "When it discards one or more Adrenaline Tokens it counts as having discarded an additional one." (The latter may be overkill though)

Have enemies engaged by her be at a :-flip to Intimidation's Wp duel

Thoughts?

I'm trying her out on Thursday, so I haven't seen the new version in action yet, but I agree on IWA on Mouse.

I'm concerned with removing the :-flipto disengage her, since most games I've tried with her previous to that my opponent would just ignore her and disengage and she'd make minimal Adrenaline from not being engaged or attacked in melee.

If the change to her Df trigger means people are just attacking her and she's not making enough Adrenline, I'd suggest change it to the old trigger, just make it After Succeeding.

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She has auto-Staggered on her melee now so they're already going to be at -2 Mv and not movable by friendlies, but I'm not going to complain if the :-flip stays lol

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Again, Ironsides is supposed to be DONE this update. Assume we get nothing else, no more iteration. Looking at her right now, she needs at a minimum of a few more weeks of testing and iteration  but we simply don't have it. 

I would love to hear from the Dev's on exactly what they were trying to address with this recent update. Giving her a brand new play style can't have been the answer. If there was feedback then it should have been implemented gradually. However again I wonder why this feedback wasn't brought up earlier when we actually had time to deal with it. 

The BEST thing for Toni right now is to revert her back to last week and make MINOR tweaks based on any last minute feedback. From my understanding there are two main points of feedback and some assuming on my part of her play style.

1) Good Shot My Turn felt oppressive

  • Again I'm not sure why this feedback is coming out NOW and not months back as it literally hasn't changed in many months. However if Wyrd did deem it so then we should look at toning back its effects rather than completely changing such an integral part of how she plays. For example 1/2/3 damage, 2/2/3 damage, 2/3/4 with a negative to damage flip. Maybe no damage and instead she gains 1/2/4 adrenaline instead? 

2) She's not generating enough adrenaline to fuel her both offensively and defensively. 

  • This has been my experience and I've seen the feedback brought up frequently. There are sort of two ways to go with this. We can make her adrenaline go further, depleting less, or you can give her better means of accumulating it. Allowing her to reduce damage by 2 per 1 adrenaline spent (to a min of 1) feels like a better trade off than how it currently works. Alternatively, allowing her to generate an amount of adrenaline based on the turn number (plus engagements) so early game she's relatively tame and late game she's getting really pumped up. 

3) It seems like the Dev's want her to be less punchy and more tar pit

  • This is really dangerous to try and change her this late. To be honest I would love to see her become more tarpit but it's simply too much too fast. You could however make very minor tweaks to introduce a bit of this. Simply giving her positives to disengaging strikes and give her staggered on her attack is plenty. Heck just give her "Challenge" and call it done. 

 

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So I realized after the fact in my most recent batrep but Mouse can't pull friendlies around anymore since Staggered happens before the push.  If we want him to be able to do that, then I see two ways of fixing this: could make the Staggered a "may" instead of a must, or we could make the push part of the action and make Staggered the built-in trigger. What do you all think?

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