Did we get nerfed in m3e

[Omenbringer]

Well I appreciate that Fixxer. I understand wanting the new edition to succeed, I do as well. I have to much money tied up with Malifaux ( It is easier to list the handful of crews I don't own than the ones I do) and way more time invested building communities and play testing over the years to want otherwise. As I said in my original post though, the new edition is bringing much more change than I think a lot of the community was really expecting. Rebalancing and rules cleanup is one thing, and something that definitely needed to occur; however many crews are very different from what they were even in M2e and that is a tough pill to swallow for a lot of folks.

[Wildcard626]

7 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Well I appreciate that Fixxer. I understand wanting the new edition to succeed, I do as well. I have to much money tied up with Malifaux ( It is easier to list the handful of crews I don't own than the ones I do) and way more time invested building communities and play testing over the years to want otherwise. As I said in my original post though, the new edition is bringing much more change than I think a lot of the community was really expecting. Rebalancing and rules cleanup is one thing, and something that definitely needed to occur; however many crews are very different from what they were even in M2e and that is a tough pill to swallow for a lot of folks.

Your right on the money their omenbringer I'm finding it a really hard pill to swallow indeed as I own every gremlin crew available and every alt model etc which I've paid to have  painted I have 3 kr multicases full of gremlin models I loved everything about them from the wacky play style to the wacky sculpts of some of the models i dressed as a hill Billy complete with giant pig to enter tournaments to raise money for charity I was that into them and having so much fun playing them that I never even looked at another faction.... But Now I don't like how they've changed  or how they play its very different and not as fun anymore  . I do feel they've gone a step too far and taken too much away from the gremlins as a hole but yes that's just my personal opinion and I'd love to sing the praises of m3e  but I just can't sorry if this upsets people but to me they've made m3e so much less fun and that's what I played malifaux for the fun 

[bedjy]

I know some guys that just hate anything new. They like their habbits and don't want to hear of the new. Reading at this topic is quite extreme in that manner, and I can likely see how some people were disgusted by such negativity.

People have to be helped through change, there is an emotional investment to do whatever the change is. In my community, everyone is quite happy with the 3rd, even if there are some things that are not in a good spot yet, it's overall quite refreshing. But that is quite hard to do if no one tries to push people, at least a little.

So rather than whining here, you should just take a deep breath, look around and come back later in the beta with a fresh sight without heavy expectations.

[Omenbringer]

No offense Bedjy, but you are exhibiting exactly the behavior that keeps many of us from participating in these play tests. That is not good for the community or the game. What you call "Whining" is other players voicing their legitimate concerns about the game. There is nothing wrong with that, it is after all how we arrived at an edition change in the first place. If no one whined about the elevation and LOS rules would the new edition have devoted any development time to improving them? How about all the whining about balance, without that would we even be play testing a new edition?

Your suggestion to

Quote

take a deep breath, look around and come back later in the beta with a fresh sight without heavy expectations.

Will only ensure that when we come back the game would definitely not be what we expected or enjoy and by then it will be too late to adjust anything. I wont speak for anyone other than myself, but this isn't my first rodeo with Wyrd play testing or a Malifaux edition change. While this one has been rather tame in comparison to the last one, the heat is starting to rise as enthusiastic supporters of the changes try shouting down those who are not. Nothing good comes from dismissing or trivializing the legitimate concerns of others as simply whining or faction bias, other than having to rebuild communities when the dust settles. It wasn't easy rebuilding after the last edition change and this one will likely be just as difficult since GW seems interested in pulling in a share of the skirmish game community.

[Wildcard626]

7 hours ago, bedjy said:

 

So rather than whining here, you should just take a deep breath, look around and come back later in the beta with a fresh sight without heavy expectations

I've looked around and other people are commenting on how we've lost our flavour. Not everyone sees dancing unicorns and rainbows when they look at m3e . I'm glad you and your community are happy with m3e but that's not the case everywhere else. I'm not against change at all but feel they've changed too much as do others on some of these threads. Not everyone has to like the changes or not be negative and keep quiet about such things I won't and never will be a suck up to everything wyrd and yes I will wait until the beta is finalised and give it another try then but won't be holding my breathe that they inject some of the fun back into our faction that is so obviously missing 

 

 

 

 

[Davie]

13 hours ago, Wildcard626 said:

Not everyone sees dancing unicorns and rainbows when they look at m3e .

it's funny that you imply that @bedjy is looking at M3E through pink-shaded glasses, because during closed beta he was the one I had the strongest discussions and arguements with, with him being very forward with his criticism towards certain Things in M3E.

But unlike the negativity some throw towards M3E, he uses the beta and the Forum to post constructive criticism, backed by batreps.

And by saying "some" I don't want to throw shade at anyone in particular. I can see that many Posts in this thread are not just negative and I think your hearts are in the right places.

[bedjy]

@Omenbringer I'm sorry, I don't mean for you to stop being critical about M3e. But here is not the proper place to do it. You have some forms you can fill in a few minutes without having to invest much time in the process and you have a whole section of the forum where you can share your point of view.

So no, posting here your disappointment is just bringing negativity to people who will read you, I'm afraid.

As Davie say, there are several things of this M3e I'm not a fan and in the Closed Beta I've been fighting quite hard to be heard through disagreement and I continue to do so. I've improved several things that people can enjoy when playing their games and I'm quite proud of it.
Sorry for your pretty cool Unicorn reference, but you're not adressing it to the right person.

[Omenbringer]

Think you have the wrong attribution there @bedjy

As I said earlier I am glad that this time at least Wyrd has provided a method of reporting play test concerns other than in the public forums. It is something that I am sure is being well utilized by those who have had less than stellar experiences with past methodologies. However, I don't feel as if stating that crews don't play like they used to or have changed substantially from previous versions is overly negative as much as it is a statement of fact. To each his own I guess.

@Davie Battle Reports definitely provide some good data points but have not proven all that successful at keeping things balanced or clear over the years. Plenty of things have been supported by battle reports only to become major issues after general release. Always with the wider community asking "how did this get thru play testing?" Often the answer is it didn't, but the "hard" data and a vocal group supported no modification/ or modification while other play testers were resigned to a silent "I told you so" later.

Play testing is both art and science and every player base largely unique. What one player may find weak, another finds extremely potent. Sometimes feeling or perceptions are just as, if not more, important than the hard data. There are a few M3e inclusions that I definitely feel are going to be major issues once they hit the wild (and yes I reported them during the closed beta). In my opinion, gremlins more so than any other faction have found themselves in this conundrum more often than any other faction or model set as a product of their design. When the cards are favorable and the player skilled, Gremlin crews can do some absolutely wonderful things, when they are not they tend to fall flat hard and fast. Many in the communities I have played with considered my Gremlin crews extremely broken the first time out, after a few games though, they are much less terrified and have become very skilled at countering them.

The crux of this thread's discussion appears to be one side arguing that the faction/ crews they love and play don't feel like their old selves while the other side is arguing it is a new game so approach it as such. A new edition doesn't have to "throw the baby out with the bath water," I would argue that there was an awful lot that could have stayed exactly as it was and still produced an improved experience through surgical rebalancing and core rules clarifications (except the elevation rules which were largely unplayable and needed much more than a scalpel). Again you may disagree, and that is fine, but I would wager a larger segment of the Malifaux community did not expect the significant changes M3e is bringing. I know I didn't and that is one reason I made a suggestion to Wyrd staffers during the closed period to begin "prepping the battlefield" publicly so the community might understand the "why" of the designers changes and hopefully reduce the inevitable player attrition a new edition causes (as I have mentioned previously, this is a major concern for a publisher now that GW is actively courting skirmish level players).

Lastly, I would caution against assuming that other posters were not or did not participate in the closed or open beta sessions (again the internet is a difficult medium for gauging tone, but there does appear to be a dismissive one in some of these postings). Not everyone in a group had to post individually to voice thier opinions or experiences, and not every play test group had access to other groups discussions. It is an even more dangerous assumption now that Wyrd is allowing direct (non-forum) anonymous reporting during the open play test period.

I do appreciate the passion and largely congenial discourse though, and again am glad to see that others are having a very different experience. Should those who are not happy with the final published game decide to leave, then it will fall upon the shoulders of those who are to keep things going.

[Mxbedlam]

So I have played a LOT of Bayou in the beta closed and open. I've played every master but Zoraida (as a primary master at least) multiple games now. I've tested the faction against every other faction out there and I have yet to find us lacking in power levels comparatively with any of the other factions barring maybe Guild but that's cause Guild is a bit busted in 3e so far. As a matter of fact I feel like I have to actively TRY to build crews that don't do their job well in this edition. I've played in Keyword and I've played outside keyword grabs (whiskey golem and brin stand out), I've played multi master and single master. Overall I think the faction is full of strong options for the game as it stands coming out of m3e and that's despite the fact that once again, we didn't see enough people play testing Bayou in the betas.

The only master at this point (and its Master, not keyword) I have a quibble with is Wong and that's because I'm not a fan of the shockwave mechanic as is and he still has a place.

Many of our options have changed and honestly HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME has changed the most. Its not a game of score big early and coast out the win, or flood the board and win through activation superiority. You fight tooth and nail for every point you get in 3e and most of your points have to be scored across the turns instead of all at once.

Most models don't drop out massive damage all at once anymore either. They CAN for sure, I laid waste to models with Mancha the other night like it was nothing, but he doesn't consistently spike big damage. Same for Franc, Whiskey Golem, Emissary and Alphonse. They hit hard when they can but often they aren't taking any model that isn't a minion out in a single turn.

Here's my biggest take away in these games though, outside of an early stupid Marcus game that doesn't matter anymore, I have never played a game of m3e with Bayou and thought "I'm not gonna win" from the get go. The depowering that you feel from 2nd ed. Everyone feels it. No one is out there rolling every table based on Master strength alone. 3e is a game of synergies which is why its hard to look at a master specifically without considering their keyword models as well. Games tend to build upon multiple activations of models working together. Sometimes it takes 2 or 3 models to achieve scoring a single point, that's our new reality.

To sum up (too late): Bayou is fine. There's some little points that will come out as we go into live that need to be adjusted but on the whole they are as good as everyone else, barring cheaty guild players. (seriously Lucius can suck it)

[4thstringer]

Cheaty guildy checking in.   I haven't played against Gremlins much this edition, but there is a piece of advice I can give that I have to someone who thought guild sucked now in the open beta forums.  It's that the playstyle of the faction might not bring you happiness anymore. If that's the case, it might be more worth it to explore the other factions and see if you can find what does.

[Mxbedlam]

^^^^^ 

This. 

Somer isnt the same. His best 2e comparison is pre uber Nicodem honestly. Brewie plays more like 2e McM. Zip plays about the same. Ulix is way more aggro. Mah is more movement shenanigans and versatility.  Ophelia crew is mostly the same. Z is the same but that's ok cause she might as well be new considering how few people played Grem Z

[Omenbringer]

14 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

...there is a piece of advice I can give that I have to someone who thought guild sucked now in the open beta forums.  It's that the playstyle of the faction might not bring you happiness anymore. If that's the case, it might be more worth it to explore the other factions and see if you can find what does.

So your suggestion is to look for another faction/ crew that does what your old favorite did in another faction? If it exists in another faction then what the hell was the point of all the changes?

You are correct in stating that it should be looked at as a new game. It is a very different game than either of the previous editions and in some aspects nearly unrecognizable. Some may view it as an improvement, others will see it as quite the opposite. There is nothing wrong with that. I am glad that some are really enjoying the changes.

[Da Git]

Everything has been refreshed in the game, so at this stage (remember, the game isn't even out yet!) it's it's pretty well impossible to tell what is weak or OP, especially in the long term. Remember when wave 4 came out and people were saying Sandeep was crap?

21 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Cheaty guildy checking in.   I haven't played against Gremlins much this edition, but there is a piece of advice I can give that I have to someone who thought guild sucked now in the open beta forums.  It's that the playstyle of the faction might not bring you happiness anymore. If that's the case, it might be more worth it to explore the other factions and see if you can find what does.

This is some super solid advice. It applies to me in that I loved both M2E Asami and Kirai's mobility and now they've become more generic summoners (although at least Asami can move her friends) and Misaki has taken on a whole new lease of life for me with the edition change (hint, I like mobility tricks ).
 

[4thstringer]

10 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

So your suggestion is to look for another faction/ crew that does what your old favorite did in another faction? If it exists in another faction then what the hell was the point of all the changes?

 

I'm not saying another faction does.  My guess is you will never find another faction that does exactly what your old one did, but no amount of Internet argument, which appears to have gone on for months in this forum, is going to change your mind about it.   Unless the argument itself is making you happy, finding what does will cause positive change for you.  

For me, I always felt guild was behind in 2e from the first errata to wave 4 and maybe wave 5.  That may have been accurate, and it may not have, but always feeling like it was didn't improve my enjoyment of the game.  And that's the point.

[Macdaddy353]

As someone who has played MK3 Zipp, Wong, and Somer I can say they are all really strong.

 

ulix also looks really strong.

 

i really like the beta rules for the crews I tested, although I think sommer might be busted. The best summary I have heard of gremlins is:

”Butloads of random damage for no reason at all” and that about sums up my experience with them. 

[Mxbedlam]

5 hours ago, Macdaddy353 said:

As someone who has played MK3 Zipp, Wong, and Somer I can say they are all really strong.

 

ulix also looks really strong.

 

i really like the beta rules for the crews I tested, although I think sommer might be busted. The best summary I have heard of gremlins is:

”Butloads of random damage for no reason at all” and that about sums up my experience with them. 

I think the constant attention to Somer has helped him from being too excessive. A lot of his card draw potential is keyed back a bit and he can now be more toolbox summoner with a decent gun than the bayou spam card drawing killing machine he was early on. A good player is gonna capitalize on his strengths but the need to be close to Bayous for buffs now is probably going to be prohibitive to a certain degree.

[4thstringer]

Ok, so I have not played Gremlins.  TBF it was starter box Mah v. Starter box misaki, so any conclusions from it deserve a heaping spoonful of salt.  

She and her keyword are so good.  

[Cathaidan]

I may be wrong here, but it seems like this discussion is more about deciding if apples or oranges are better or worse.  The issues of the OP, as I have read them, aren't about game balance or game potential or even the manner in which Malifaux as a whole have changed.  The issue from the OP seems to be more that the crazy shenanigans that used to make the Bayou seem like random insanity on the board have been replaced with other things that seem more measured and controlled.

I haven't played Malifaux for very long, but the Gremlins always kind of struck me as being similar to Warhammer Goblins.  Weaker on average, not as intelligent, not as capable as the others, but willing to try out things that nobody else was trying.  The stories from the Breachside Broadcast seem to back this up.  It isn't that Zipp should have this mechanic or that mechanic in the game, it is that whatever his mechanics are should feel more like an opportunist who knows a good thing when he sees it.  Somer isn't some mastermind whose schemes will win him the day, he should feel like someone that is in charge because he says so, and will find a way to make sure it happens come hell or high water.

So, instead of discussing if this or that is balanced or in a good place competitively, the question should be, "Does this mechanic feel like I'm playing a cunning and goofy character that is making it up as they go along?"  If so, then the gremlins would have the same feel.  If they traded some of the wackier abilities for balance, then it probably doesn't feel that way anymore.

(Another way to look at it is this:  I went into a GW Store for modeling supplies the other day because it is a closer walk than the local Hobby Town shop.  They asked me if I would be interested in coming back to playing Warhammer and were talking to me about what I used to play.  The store clerk pointed out that now, because of the changes in the editions, you can field an all goblin army and it is balanced!  I picked up the book and flipped through it and then asked some simple questions, "Where is the Snottling Pump Wagon?  Why don't Doom Divers fail like they used to?  Why can't I mix and match Goblin tribes only to have them crumble as they fight against themselves?"  The answer was, instead of tinkering with the numbers on things to make the completely game changing swings in power narrower and more balanced, they just threw them out and added stats or lowered costs on models to make them balanced.  But I didn't play Goblins because they were balanced.  If I wanted balanced, I would play either my Dark Elves or my Orcs.  I played Goblins because it was insanity on the table that neither myself nor my opponent could fully control.  In balancing the Goblins, they removed a lot of the crazy stuff that I loved about them instead of trying to balance the randomness.  Sure, it is balanced now, but it doesn't feel like I'm playing Goblins.  I'm just playing a Green-Skinned Army.  So, what have they done with the Bayou Faction that makes it still feel like a bunch of drunk rednecks living on the fringes of society and making it up as they go?  Balanced or not, competitive or not, when I play a Gremlin list do I feel like it is a Gremlin list just because of what it does compared to another faction?)

[Morgan Vening]

21 hours ago, Cathaidan said:

Balanced or not, competitive or not, when I play a Gremlin list do I feel like it is a Gremlin list just because of what it does compared to another faction?)

That's part of the problem. One of the biggest complaints, including the literal title of this thread, was about the relative power level of the Faction, especially at a tournament level.

So, Wyrd had to make a choice. Have a crew that's inherently unbalanced, with massive swings that'll either fizzle or destroy, or work towards making all eight factions worthwhile at a competitive level.

Wyrd made their choice, and frankly, given the volume of complaints about Gremlins, a reasoned one. Now, you may think that's the wrong one, and that's a fair opinion. But I understand (from a marketing/sales/argumentative perspective) why they went the other way.

Granted, there's been a lessening of general shenanigans across the board, and that might make it seem like Bayou are especially diluted. But those shenanigans were also a detriment to the entry level of the game (as anyone whose first game was against Viks, RatBomb, M1E DreamerYoYo, etc, would attest). There's still more than enough complexity, but a lot of the "way out there" stuff has been removed across all factions, and I think that's for the best. You may disagree, and it might end up being a massive failure for a niche game. But I trust Wyrd looked at the numbers, and felt this was their best way forward.

[Mxbedlam]

So in that regard, Wong WANTS to shoot his own guys to make them fast and give them glowy. Somer summons with upgrades that make his bayous drunk. Mah still yells at people and her kids have reckless. Zipp still drops pianos. Ulix pigs still have mandatory triggers. Brewie is still both getting drunk and getting people drunk. Its still there in the context of the abilities. What isn't there is Dumb Luck. That mechanic is completely gone and rightly so as it was the most abusive thing in the faction, especially on models like Francois. Gremlins are still a wonky faction with small access to defensive techniques that hurt themselves and blow shit up, but the lost the more risk big win big mechanics from last edition that could often be gamed so that the risk didn't matter.

[Davie]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 6:48 PM, Cathaidan said:

I haven't played Malifaux for very long, but the Gremlins always kind of struck me as being similar to Warhammer Goblins. 

So that, besides other Things, had drawn me towards Gremlins when I startet Malifaux. I thought of them like the "O&G of Malifaux".

But soon after playing my first games back in M2E I realized that they are only marginally like that. They did very high amounts of damage while being very reliable and selfsustaining. Yes, Dumb Luck was very harmful on themselves but Slop Haulers were so good in mitigating those self damaging effects. I always felt they were very reliable yet still full of flavor and comedic value. And during the Beta a bit of that flavor got lost in Translation I. But then again we have great new additions like the spit hog and Gerogy&Olaf.

 

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 6:48 PM, Cathaidan said:

"Where is the Snottling Pump Wagon?  Why don't Doom Divers fail like they used to?  Why can't I mix and match Goblin tribes only to have them crumble as they fight against themselves?"

I think that this is awhole nother can of Worms. Age of Sigmar did terrible Things to Warhammer, if you ask me.

 

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 6:48 PM, Cathaidan said:

So, what have they done with the Bayou Faction that makes it still feel like a bunch of drunk rednecks living on the fringes of society and making it up as they go? 

They drink lots of moonshine (I think the "Trusty Flask" is much more frequent now than it used to be), they still have great self-damaging potential thanks to many stray shots and they still have lots of flavor.