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Plus that would drastically weaken terror now. It would make you immune to its effects even on failed flips to the downsides if you only made 1 attack on your turn or immune to the effects on your first attack. And that’s assumibg you failed your flip.

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2 hours ago, Yomster said:

Idk if this has been discussed, but what if failing a terrify check gives distracted instead of ending the models action.

I think it's an interesting idea. But you'd definitely have to adjust the balance of Terrifying, since it's Serene Countenance at best, and nothing at worst.

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On 1/19/2019 at 6:41 PM, Ceej said:

I really don't think 100% trigger chance when hired by Seamus as a leader is a good idea at all. I think Doxies are already really badass, and Belle's are really close to perfect.

I really like my Harem idea where you need to invest into multiple Redchapels to gain a guaranteed suit, independent of Seamus. That way Seamus doesn't have to go out of his way to benefit from it, and anyone else taking it gains a huge out-of-keyword synergy just for doubling up on models.

For reference "Harem: If this model activates within 6" of 2 or more Redchapel models with the Harem ability, it may add 1 suit of its choosing or +2 to any Attack Action Duel total it generates."

Stick that onto Sybelle, Doxies and Belles and I think you've got a great footing for reliability.

Something like that I feel gives a great deal of reliability, and it also reinforces luring models into a trap, where one model gets a guaranteed trigger on Lure for Distracted, and two other models then get at least 1x guaranteed trigger Unexpected Ferocity.

I don't know, I think I'm self biased because I've already spoken about this stuff, and addressed it all in my other post thing, even if it went a little over the top towards Terror. I don't think I'm adding anything valuable to the discussion anymore and I'm just bloating the thread, which might cause more experienced posters from being seen by the company. 

I'm not sure how anyone thinks Doxys are bad ass. 7 SS models with no zero action, a very luck based attack where you need a condition AND a trigger, and a lead the way ability thats mediocre at best with strong limitations. Doxys are over costed. 

Belles are good, but again this all ties into limited synergy, and abilities that look good on paper but in games are very very situational. Seamus needs a lot of work and I've seen some great ideas in here. I just hope some of these are implemented because I want to see how they play. 

 

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Terror isn't as good as most believe. Its never really important, and in games I'm facing someone with terror, I just save a card to do that one important thing I need to if I have to. I've just never seen it be someone that saves a model's life, or has a major affect on the game. 

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6 minutes ago, IronmanKC81 said:

Terror isn't as good as most believe. Its never really important, and in games I'm facing someone with terror, I just save a card to do that one important thing I need to if I have to. I've just never seen it be someone that saves a model's life, or has a major affect on the game. 

And there is so much To thread available to most factions. My main opponent’s McCabe crew is usually half or more Ruthless and if he really wants to he can make it almost all Ruthless except McCabe. 

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Which is why there is some interest in an ability for Seamus to strip immunity to terror. Heck if that’s not desired I’d settle for an ability that makes ruthless models that target terrifying models take some drawback. A damage or two, become distracted before the shot, become slow, just something that doesn’t automatically mean “hey Seamus! Cool let me break out all my ruthless models to shut down your terror, your healing, your prime henchman’s Terror and her ability, thanks for playing.”

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I agree mostly with the sentiment if not the execution. I don’t think you can divorce terror from him. It’s too central to the character.

i think the terror mechanics are mostly fine, but they are too overlapped with his other abilities. Terror and his ability to heal are linked and if you overcome one, you overcome the other. 

I’m not sure at this point we can restart. Nor would it be desired. I can say with some experience the models that get massive overhauls late in the process almost always cause problems down the line. 2E Leveticus I’m looking at you. That’s pretty much the big reason any suggestions I toss out have been trying to work within the structures already established. I think the crew is a bit of a mess right now that doesn’t work together well, but there is something there if a few of the rules are tweaked.

I don’t care if Seamus is on top of the pile, Id like him to be competitive, but what I really want is for him to be fun. Throughout most of 2e he just wasn’t. He was the effectively 2ap master with no 0 action most of the time who jumped and shot once a turn. And when you missed or the BJ happened, boy, were you sad. I’d really like to avoid doing nothing but what he did last edition, or being the world’s most expensive wastrel.

Glad you liked Bass.

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I think lying in wait is a very interesting mechanic, since outactivation has been reducing or entirely removed in M3E, and it's a viable strat in any "you-go-I-go" game... though when that is said, I think that Seamus is a bit much: "one big gun" once a turn, an little else... so agree that Seamus needs looking at...

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On 1/20/2019 at 10:51 PM, Saduhem said:

And Drowned
And Crooked Man

You're also giving auto 1 Damage around Monty, +1 auto damage on his bonus action, +1 on a Crow.

You're also giving bonus damage to the rest of the crew, especially Daw, who can go to a min 5 damage on a ram against anything with staggered. 

Using lying in wait anywhere near him is suicidal.


Have I also mentioned that you're giving +flips to an entire Woe crew?

Drowned and Crooked men are very niche picks, so the sky is hardly falling. The bonus damage on monty is barely a thing since the whole crew applies the condition in spades he is always getting that anyway. 

+flips to a woe crew is a much more significant deal, but the answer is clearly to not use the ability recklessly? 

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23 minutes ago, Andrew James Princep said:

Drowned and Crooked men are very niche picks, so the sky is hardly falling. 

Crooked men are the first thing I put in my crews. They can give staggered to multiple models and it's the only ranged attack that can do so that is not a projectile.

Jack can't technically give staggered. The upgrades don't kick in till the turn after you attach them. 

These guys are the backbone of the crew.

 

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4 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

Crooked men are the first thing I put in my crews. They can give staggered to multiple models and it's the only ranged attack that can do so that is not a projectile.

Jack can't technically give staggered. The upgrades don't kick in till the turn after you attach them. 

These guys are the backbone of the crew.

 

Im going to have to try them out next time i play jack cause they havent made it into any of my crews at all. I tend to have two Hanged running Servant of Dark Powers for the 6" push and Terrifying 13 + heal on kill, so i could probably ditch one of them and a guilty for two crooked men... 

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41 minutes ago, IronmanKC81 said:

You can even call the terror through ruthless ability “do you know who I am” out of m2e. 

Like it!

It could at least make ruthless not apply when targeting Seamus instead of a LoS kind of thing.

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Large aura or LoS would be necessary I think, or you get the same problem that his current design of Wait for it does, encourages him to clump up with the rest of his models while his other mechanics encourage and require him to operate all over and not be locked in a clump.

I think the name of the ability would be great if they imported it. I do think it would be Important to point out I would only support getting around Ruthless for Terrfying, not for Manipulative or anything else Ruthless protects against.

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11 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Holy cow, six pages of feedback. So, what I'm gathering is that Seamus and all of Redchapel are in a perfect spot and that there's absolutely no reason to adjust them whatsoever. Right?

We hear you. We will be making some adjustments to the Redchapel Crew in the next update. 

Once we make those adjustments, it would be fantastic to see the updated models hit the table in some battle reports so that we can gather data from play. There are only so many games we can get in at the office before we have to go home. 

Keep an eye out for tomorrow's update.

As soon as you update it I’ll get two games in this weekend 

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On 1/19/2019 at 7:29 PM, thewrathchilde said:

but there are quiet a few crews that can field a significant amount of Ruthless models that circumvent all their defensive tech

I keep hearing this, so I pulled the numbers. The only real outlier is Ten Thunders with 11(!) models with Ruthless. Seems like that should be toned down, especially with 3 Versatile models with Ruthless. That is nearly double any other Faction for Ruthless.

Even crews with 3-4, many are Henchman that cost 9-10 SS typically. I'm not seeing how there is so much as to make Terrifying meaningless, other than in TTs. They also have the most Versatile models with Ruthless at three, some of those are Minions so you can bring multiples. Looks like most Horsemen are Ruthless, but again they are all 10SS I think. I didn't check Upgrades though, there might be more there.

Arcanists - 4 (one Master, One Horseman-Versatile, an Enforcer and a Henchman).

Bayou - 3 (one Hench, one Versatile Minion, and the Pigapault-Versatile)

DMH - Ryle is it.

Guild - 6 (three minions, one Hench, one Enforcer and the Horseman-Versatile

Neverborn - 2 (Horseman-Versatile and one Hench (Carver)

Outcasts - 3 (one Minion, one Hench, one Horseman-Versatile)

Ressurs - 6 (Three Hench, two minions-one Versatile, one Horseman-versatile)

Ten Thunders - 11 (why?) - (five Hench - one Versatile, two Enforcers - one Versatile, four Minions - one Versatile) 

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1 hour ago, Kyle said:

Holy cow, six pages of feedback. So, what I'm gathering is that Seamus and all of Redchapel are in a perfect spot and that there's absolutely no reason to adjust them whatsoever. Right?

We hear you. We will be making some adjustments to the Redchapel Crew in the next update. 

Once we make those adjustments, it would be fantastic to see the updated models hit the table in some battle reports so that we can gather data from play. There are only so many games we can get in at the office before we have to go home. 

Keep an eye out for tomorrow's update.

So happy to hear this!

Is there a change Forgotten won't be.... Forgotten in the next update?

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@PaddywhackIt’s sort of an issue because just like the discussion on anti-armor you need far fewer models with ruthless to mostly trivialize terror/manipulative.

Consider, how often do you have your chaff or scheme runners realistically attack the opposing beaters/masters? Mostly beaters kill scheme runners and chaff to clear them out, and kill beaters to prevent them from killing your chaff and protect their own. 

Its the same problem with giving  extra AP to models. In older editions you only needed to get 1 model with extra AP through that didn’t have downsides that made that Extra AP the defacto standard. Make a single beater able to reliably get an extra AP and no other beater will be taken unless it’s equally as good. You need comparatively far fewer models to render a defense relatively pointless than you need protection itself. And then you get into the paradox that the more of something you have the easier it is to negate. In armor’s case the more your entire crew is known for having armor the less good it is because it’s known to just bring anti armor. If you just had 1 model that incidently had armor it’s less likely the opponent will have thought it worthwhile to bring something against it. 

As a functional defensive mechanic terror gets the worst of both worlds. It’s only really great and useful, as currently designed, if you have a lot of it, or if the TN is so high most models need to burn a severe to target you. 1 or 2 terror causing models of TN 12ish are annoying, but not much more.

And that’s the problem with Red Chapel as it stands now. Let’s ignore Bete for a second since even if she’s balanced I think her survival mechanic is very feel bad.

Seamus’ card has Terror and ability to get a benefit from failed terror. And that’s pretty much all his defenses aside from his mobility (which is a consideration I’m not knocking and one of the reasons I haven’t been screaming for H2W back to pair with H2K), but we also have to recognize that 3e is a far more mobile game and while his teleport tricks are possibly a fair trade to help keep him safe, especially since they fixed the CCK (thank you for that x 1000), it isn’t as hard to get to him and he only has df 4, when other masters get high stats and defenses. Bring a ruthless model or anything that incendently gets around it and he’s just lost 2 abilities in his card for an incremental ability on the beater.

It compounds with Madam Sybelle who also has 2 abilities shut down by that and she’s already overcosted to begin with.

Im personally focusing so heavily on terror for a few reasons.

Personal preference for one. That’s always been the most interesting aspect of him to me.

For another the intro article on Wyrd’s own site for 3e specifically called out terror are being a big theme of direction for him and at the moment it feels like a forgettable part of his design.

And finally fluff. Even if avatars are not officially part of the game any longer it doesn’t change the Fact that in fluff and in the past his avatar was the avatar of dread. He is the literal embodiment of Fear and Terror. 

For myself I don’t need him to be doing what he was in 1e, tossing out impossible to pass terror duels no one could pass and reaping reward from it. But I really would like the Terror mechanics to work and be more relevant for him than for any other crew, since that’s really his thing.

I don’t need him to be the absolute modest terrifying thing in the game (he should be though ;) ), it’s fine Pandora has a higher Terror TN, but he should get more consistent and better use of it than anyone, and right now it’s a pretty forgettable part of his design in my opinion.

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4 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

I keep hearing this, so I pulled the numbers. The only real outlier is Ten Thunders with 11(!) models with Ruthless. Seems like that should be toned down, especially with 3 Versatile models with Ruthless. That is nearly double any other Faction for Ruthless.

Even crews with 3-4, many are Henchman that cost 9-10 SS typically. I'm not seeing how there is so much as to make Terrifying meaningless, other than in TTs. They also have the most Versatile models with Ruthless at three, some of those are Minions so you can bring multiples. Looks like most Horsemen are Ruthless, but again they are all 10SS I think. I didn't check Upgrades though, there might be more there.

My main opponent is a Ten Thunders player so that may have skewed my perception 

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