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Clement

Is anyone actually beating Kings Empire?

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11 hours ago, Clement said:

Which restriction for Fenton?  There are fireteams that aren't part of squads and cast actions that don't target enemy fireteams. (I guess action technically, on immolated Rhino)

Right, forgot that TOS doesn't have a distiction between actions with and without opposed duels.

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The Combined Arms titan is a fireteam element in the Mechanized Infantry squad. From the rules for Combined Arms (emphasis mine)

Quote

During the game, the Combined Arms Fireteam uses [the information] listed on its special Unit Card, rather than the information listed on the normal Unit Card. In all other ways, it functions as a normal Fireteam in the unit it came with (including Activations, Orders, etc.).

Then from Thrace's Morale Action:

Quote

Target Squad with at least one Fireteam in range takes a :ToS-Range: Action.

The Mechanized Infantry Squad would be targeted, and it would take a single gun action from any of its Fireteams, which includes the Walker. Ergo: Thrace can inspire the Walker to Fire At Will!

With regards to the question asked later on Friday: what crew would I put together for a Single Commander game involving Set Traps and a largely fixed KE force? If the table isn't terrain-dense, then I know it will be a shooting gallery. I will want to bring stuff that moves fast so that I can get into combat as fast as possible. The more resources I can force my opponent to burn to just shoot me, the better off I am. What isn't moving fast to tie up shooters (including Edmonton) needs to be resilient and holding the line. That would tempt me in the direction of:
Lord Of Steel with Soulstone Necklace and Deflector Shield (a positive twist on defense in a game with nearly no twist modifiers is huge, see also: comments on Striped Skulkers). His primary job is to get into peoples' business and cause problems. Being a Commander, he can use his free Morale action to break contact and play for scenario once the unit he's jammed has given up its activation. He's also a brilliant Commander to use Lion Among the Gazelles with, and Medic will help keep that Shield online. (2 scrip)
Supporting, I'd bring Samantha Thrace (3 scrip) with Toughness and something like Stylish Monocle. Her job is to do what a more static Commander would do to support the squad that's holding the line, since the Lord of Steel is going to be a bit busy; she also brings additional Tactics Tokens, making up for the LoS's 1. (total: 5 scrip)

So with 7 Scrip spent, we've got 18 to throw into what's going to do the work on the table. If I'm picking from my available models, the Marauder is going in in order to support the Lord of Steel and otherwise be an extreme nuisance. I like to give it Toughness (shared with Thrace, in this case) and when the prototypes are handed out, I also give it the Shock Batons, which gives it a little more versatility with the Accurate keyword, allowing the Marauder to pick off unit adjuncts (say goodnight Sharpshooters) and ignoring the Champion rule if you decide to use the Marauder to jam Edmonton himself. Note: the Marauder is also disgustingly quick for running schemes. (3 scrip)

With 15 scrip left to go, now it's a question of how we're going to slow down the opponent's ability to set traps and ensure that we can set our own traps as well, in the event that the Lord of Steel and Marauder are both too busy being pains in the .. to the KE shooters. Which happens to be enough to bring in Mechanized Infantry with the Engineer adjunct and a unit of Crow Runners.

With more open terrain (the motivation for the Commander pick and primary mode of play), the Crow Runners, Marauder, and Lord of Steel are going to be having a race to see who can be the first to tie up an opposing element, with a secondary race for first blood. Loser of those races will just be setting traps. Winners will too, because we want to be setting as many traps as we can.
Note: the Crow Runners will "win" that race if their actions put another squad in threat range as well, so making use of their Morale Action to shuttle your own stuff up the field is a good idea. There's a lot of interplay in there, with the one Fireteam being told to move and the other Fireteams being able to follow up with up to half the max distance (SP in this case), Crow Runners can use their start of turn movement to get up the field a bit, then use an Advance Order to move another Squad a considerable distance before moving again. In this case, with the Mechanized Infantry being the other Squad, this isn't something that's really needed.
The Mechanized Infantry have the defensive line job, which will involve their shooting anything that looks like it's moving to set traps (hi Motor Scout) that isn't tied up or dead from the speedier threats. Thrace will advance and hold with them, keeping them fed with Reinforcement Tokens and periodically triggering additional shots from the Squad.

Note: that's a first blush idea of what I'd look to do with open terrain and my selection of models. If you don't have Marauders, it won't work the same way. You'll be using Crow Runners to get up the field, and this is a case where you might use their Morale Action to shuttle stuff up the board in order to not leave the Lord of Steel completely unsupported. I would likely use their scout move and rush up the table, going for rapid ground gains, which would make my third Stratagem pick Behind Enemy Lines (remember all your discounts when you're thinking about this, LoS is -1, and if you're behind on VP, it's another -1, reducing it to 3 Tactics Tokens to hire when you're behind). TBF, this would likely be my third pick anyway. But back to the issue at hand: we have 3 unspent scrip and a spare Toughness floating around if you don't have a Marauder to bring. This could become a Rail Gunner (who will eat up the spare Toughness) and an Adjunct in the Crow Runners, giving you additional means of dealing with their objective runners.
Without a Marauder, you also have limited reason to bring Shock Batons, as the Crow Runners' and LoS' melee attacks have effects you'll want in play anyway, but you might find use for Discus Grenades since they're supposed to be closing the distance anyway (and versatile allows Advance Order: nearest team shoots then throw grenades, everyone moves in, remaining teams melee attack). I would recommend a Flare Gun on the Mechanized Infantry so that they can call for fire.

For the other Stratagems, I'm a huge fan of Expert Training even with limited squads to choose from (Crow Runners and Mechanized Infantry). Similarly, you can use Defensive Formations to keep those two squads kicking a bit longer with some canny timing of use. Thrace will be in position for the Mechanized Infantry, and the Crow Runners will be trying to keep up with the Lord of Steel, making both squads potentially eligible for benefit. Unwavering Resolve looks tempting, for when you really need to make an action count. Also: I play dirty, so Detonate Soulstone is another one I'll grab, especially with Crow Runners throwing themselves up the field.

If it's not wide open terrain, then options open up more. You can potentially get use out of Electrocutioners or Mehal Sefari because they'll be able to use cover to make themselves harder to hit on top of having heavy armor. You can also get away with using Prince Unathi in a supporting role as he'll be better able to try and find cover (go for line of sight blocking). Your squads will be doing the work, and he'll be loading them up with Reinforcement Tokens so that they can keep putting pressure on. You do run into the problem of having limited ability to set your own traps (single unit of Crow Runners), but a late-activating squad of gloried Electrocutioners can do some silly stuff, including destroy markers (did I mention Unwavering Resolve yet? Here's a use for it).
Single Commander makes the resources feel really tight, so things like the Dreadnought, Electrocutioners, and Steel Legion might be too expensive in spite of their impact on the field. You need stuff that can complete objectives to win the game.

On the other side of the table, your opponent is leaning heavily on two things to make the traps happen: the Motor Scout and moving markers. Kill the Scout and his ability to score is dramatically reduced.

Edited by spooky_squirrel
removed HHD noise under Thrace; clarified discus shenanigan
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3 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

[...]Lord Of Steel with Soulstone Necklace and Deflector Shield (a positive twist on defense in a game with nearly no twist modifiers is huge, see also: comments on Striped Skulkers). [...]

I would prefer Evasive Manouvers or Hand Held Device (since you'll be using Lion Amongst Gazelles a lot thats 2 extra cards) over Deflector Shield. You can also give him ACTIVE DEFENSES ARMOR to make the opponent really think if they want to shoot him.

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11 minutes ago, trikk said:

I would prefer Evasive Manouvers or Hand Held Device (since you'll be using Lion Amongst Gazelles a lot thats 2 extra cards) over Deflector Shield. You can also give him ACTIVE DEFENSES ARMOR to make the opponent really think if they want to shoot him.

That's one of the things I like about the Lord of Steel: he's super versatile. I was suggesting the Shield primarily because of the scenario OP described: Edmonton zapping his Commander. Edmonton doesn't want to eat an S5 hit just for popping a shield, especially since the thing he just shot is more than capable of closing the distance between Take to the Skies and a Rush Order; a reinforcement token or use of Medic will restore the shield right quick during that same activation as well.

In general I like to use Evasive Maneuvers on top of the Soulstone Necklace in a two commander game because it makes him that much harder to hurt in the first place. In both cases of Evasive Maneuvers and Hand Held Device, I look at the Disable 1 take into consideration the front line role of the Lord of Steel. If I don't have enough cards in hand to activate the Evasive Maneuvers, it saves me 2 wounds at best. Toughness ends up being a better bet at that point. That second commander lets me do a bit more (including Hand Held Recording Device for cards to feed the Evasive Maneuvers), and the additional breathing room for troops allows me to use things that have card draw built into more than just the Tomes trigger for the Allegiance.

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List and reasoning sounds pretty good!

Regarding Envoys and Assets, in the Hire Your Company section it says: "All Assets must be attached to units that share at least one Allegiance with them."

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46 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

That's one of the things I like about the Lord of Steel: he's super versatile. I was suggesting the Shield primarily because of the scenario OP described: Edmonton zapping his Commander. Edmonton doesn't want to eat an S5 hit just for popping a shield, especially since the thing he just shot is more than capable of closing the distance between Take to the Skies and a Rush Order; a reinforcement token or use of Medic will restore the shield right quick during that same activation as well.

In general I like to use Evasive Maneuvers on top of the Soulstone Necklace in a two commander game because it makes him that much harder to hurt in the first place. In both cases of Evasive Maneuvers and Hand Held Device, I look at the Disable 1 take into consideration the front line role of the Lord of Steel. If I don't have enough cards in hand to activate the Evasive Maneuvers, it saves me 2 wounds at best. Toughness ends up being a better bet at that point. That second commander lets me do a bit more (including Hand Held Recording Device for cards to feed the Evasive Maneuvers), and the additional breathing room for troops allows me to use things that have card draw built into more than just the Tomes trigger for the Allegiance.

I was thinking HHD and Soulstone Necklace. EM takes the place of HHD.

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51 minutes ago, retnab said:

List and reasoning sounds pretty good!

Regarding Envoys and Assets, in the Hire Your Company section it says: "All Assets must be attached to units that share at least one Allegiance with them."

That's the part I was looking for, but the PDF available through the Wyrd site isn't keyword searchable (or if it is, it wasn't working right). That means no HHD for the card mill that is Samanthra Thrace, which is for the best.. I shouldn't be getting a discount on kicking her to glory just because I'm playing Aby.

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3 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Whole bunch of much appreciated advice and also...


Supporting, I'd bring Samantha Thrace (3 scrip) with Toughness and something like Stylish Monocle. Her job is to do what a more static Commander would do to support the squad that's holding the line, since the Lord of Steel is going to be a bit busy; she also brings additional Tactics Tokens, making up for the LoS's 1. (total: 5 scrip)

Sonofa...   For some reason I thought the 2 asset limit only applied to commanders, not champions.   I've been stiffing Thrace this whole time.  So far Lord of Steel had been the least played of my commanders, mostly because I'd felt like the other two commanders offered more useful things.  I ran him yesterday and got a few really amazing hits out of him, so I'll definitely give him some more table time.  Thanks again for the advice.

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1 hour ago, Clement said:

Sonofa...   For some reason I thought the 2 asset limit only applied to commanders, not champions.   I've been stiffing Thrace this whole time.  So far Lord of Steel had been the least played of my commanders, mostly because I'd felt like the other two commanders offered more useful things.  I ran him yesterday and got a few really amazing hits out of him, so I'll definitely give him some more table time.  Thanks again for the advice.

You're welcome. I had been stiffing her because ...okay, I'm an Arcanist/10T player in M2e, so I'm biased against Guild in the first place... I didn't really see a place for her in my Abyssinian ranks. Then things like timing of abilities came up, and playing against more numerous forces and wishing I had an extra activation or ability to use for reinforcing (my first game used Kassa and Lord of Steel, so I didn't even have Prince Unathi's Reinforcing ability on the table), and I started looking more closely at Thrace.
The timing discussion that caught my eye was that when she activates, she can pitch two cards to go to Glory, then you draw two Tactics Tokens (instead of one), then a unit within 8 inches gets a Reinforcement Token. In Glory she becomes a card draw machine when stuck in. She gets additional combat abilities, but the big thing I was looking at was the aura effect to draw cards. She also grants you a bonus Tactics Token on activation, which ends up being really big and she'll pay for those two cards discarded within two activations of being in Glory, either due to the Tactics Token recovery in 2 activations, or drawing a card because a nearby friendly fireteam was crunched. If she's not doing anything that results in more card flips or discards, you can even Coordinated Strike to the friendly commander with the Hand Held Recording Device and retrieve the last of the two cards you had discarded, effectively giving you a discount across activations.

So I started thinking more about how she can support my troops when my Commanders are too busy to. Lord of Steel is such a super-solo that he does next to nothing for the rest of the force directly (though cheaper Stratagems can be nice when you've got a good deck to pick from), and he can easily end up over-extended. Against things with Accurate, not having a bodyguard unit nearby to shunt wounds onto doesn't matter as much, and with Assets, Reinforcement Tokens, and timely use of Medic! he can become a real pain to deal with.
This lends itself to him getting into trouble in places that he probably should not be at by himself because while he can be off killing the Motor Scout in turn 1, place a trap marker 21 (or more) inches away in turn 2, and blitz in from 18-30 inches away to pile some hurt on someone who thought they were safely tucked away in the back quarter, it also means he can find himself suddenly surrounded, and against a lone model, you don't need to worry about the Champion rule shunting wounds off onto something less dangerous or meaningful.

So it'll be a good idea to make sure that he's not the only threat getting up there. Hence the Scout&Rush on the Crow Runners. It will get them 18 inches up the board, and if there's something from the KE forward enough, you can start handing out Shaken tokens in order to keep the opposing element under control when the Jetpack-wearing Black Panth.. erm.. Wrecking ball from Waka... erm.. Lord of Steel joins in the melee. If he's near the Crow Runners, the Champion rule will help him against the Royal Rifle Corps counter attack, and his own Assets and shenanigans will help keep Edmonton from being as effective as he wants to be. You can decide if you want to do a piece trade for Edmonton, but with everything that I'd want the Lord of Steel doing, I would try to make sure that he sticks around to run objectives. That's where the Marauder comes in handy as well, however. It too can run around absurdly fast, running objectives, which makes the commander piece-trade where the Lord of Steel dives in and kills Edmonton, then dies to the RRC counter attack less costly to your overall Operation.

We don't have weight of numbers, so we have to rely on elven tricks and coordinated strikes (both special rule in game and use of units).

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5 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

(and versatile allows Advance Order: throw grenades, move, melee attack). I would recommend a Flare Gun on the Mechanized Infantry so that they can call for fire.
 

Just saw this in your write-up.   They can't actually do this, at least not in this way.   When you get to take additional actions (thanks to things like versatile), they all have to be taken in immediate succession (orders pg 21, pdf).  You could do something 90% like this by having one of the fireteams throw the grenades and then do its ranged attack, then everyone advances in and the other two do their melee though.

Commanders and their special bonus moral action get around this because that action is specifically allowed to do it at any time (commanders pg 10, pdf).

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2 minutes ago, Clement said:

Just saw this in your write-up.   They can't actually do this, at least not in this way.   When you get to take additional actions (thanks to things like versatile), they all have to be taken in immediate succession (orders pg 21, pdf).  You could do something 90% like this by having one of the fireteams throw the grenades and then do its ranged attack, then everyone advances in and the other two do their melee though.

Commanders and their special bonus moral action get around this because that action is specifically allowed to do it at any time (commanders pg 10, pdf).

Good catch, the grenading team would have to shoot before advancing, the others would advance and attack. It's still a lot of work out of a 6 scrip unit in a force of elite elements. I'm typically using the Commander's morale action or tinkering around with "what happens if I get Machinations off" scenarios (I don't typically put this Stratagem in my deck because of its cost, but I keep wondering if I'm being silly in overlooking it, especially when playing with the Lord of Steel), which taints impression of action orders. Electrocutioners also present a weirdness because their special morale action can trigger so many other things.

Hello information overload :Abyss:

I've edited the post to be more specific about making it work.

 

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Wrt the thrace wording..... it says fireteam to establish range and target..... but it says "squad" gets to take a shoot..... so do it behind a squad of mehals.... and watch all 3 fireteams which are in that "squad" fire away

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14 minutes ago, Vanilla_Dice said:

Wrt the thrace wording..... it says fireteam to establish range and target..... but it says "squad" gets to take a shoot..... so do it behind a squad of mehals.... and watch all 3 fireteams which are in that "squad" fire away

I love having the argument about this statement.  Can you explain where in the rulebook you get that a rule saying that the "Squad" taking an Action means that every fire team in the unit takes an Action?

There's an Asset which says

Quote

Take the Action on a friendly Prototype Asset without discarding a card.

That doesn't say to choose a fire team to do it, either, yet you have to in order to resolve the Action.

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56 minutes ago, Vanilla_Dice said:

Wrt the thrace wording..... it says fireteam to establish range and target..... but it says "squad" gets to take a shoot..... so do it behind a squad of mehals.... and watch all 3 fireteams which are in that "squad" fire away


I brought up the wording to support my assertion that Thrace can get extra shots out of the Mechanized Infantry Walker (Combined Arms Fireteam), with its 36" range gun (and its Bombardment trigger as well, to strip tokens that would normally help the targeted unit, like Reinforcement Tokens).
I'd rather not disrupt an in-progress game to argue over whether it means the squad can take a single shoot action or every fireteam in the squad can take a shoot action, especially if I don't believe it myself in the first place. It says "Target Squad with at least one Fireteam in range takes a :ToS-Range: Action", which implies that it's a single shoot action for the squad. I assure you that if you try to play it as every Fireteam in the Squad gets to take a shot, you will end up arguing with someone who is going to point out that "[The Squad] takes a shoot action" is not the same thing as "[Every Fireteam in the Squad may] take a shoot action". This will disrupt the game and likely spoil the experience for at least one person. Let's be good gamers and work towards positive experiences, not just for the gamers involved (who may love arguing minutiae), but also passersby who might be interested in the game, audience in general, and the Henchmen who are organizing events and helping coordinate things.

That ability sets her into her role as a support Champion within the Company I am hiring. She lets you get more work out of your elements that need to get work done. With Mehal Sefari that means you would get to attempt to shoot with them outside of their activation (with their Champion-related triggers, which is interesting), but in the list I provided for the scenario described, the Mehal Sefari are decidedly absent. In a more generalist Company, I typically will have a unit of these guys around for getting some work done, but at Single Commander games into known enemies/scenarios, I will tailor my Company to deal with the known situation. To whit:
For the scenario described, vs. a KE player with a penchant for sniping Commanders with Accurate weapons, the Mehal Sefari aren't pulling the same load that they would be in a more generalist match up, so the demands on the field are a bit different.

I went with the Mechanized Infantry because of the stacking effects of its shooting (Tracer Rounds), making the Adjunct shot (18" range, ignores cover) even more helpful for either killing the Motor Scout for coming within the 25" threat range of the Adjunct's fireteam, or projecting enough of a threat to keep the Motor Scout from attempting anything early on (forcing my opponent to activate other elements, which limits their counterattack threat when my faster-moving elements charge in). For the cost of a card, this also works with Prototype Assets like Experimental Rocket or Flare Gun, so you can get your Walker's cannon up to a high enough AV where cover doesn't matter and potentially getting your Margin value high enough (during the M.I. activation) to buy an additional attack (:ToS-Mask::ToS-Mask: trigger) with it.
Then, at the end of their activation, your Adjunct lets you draw a card. I love using Expert Training with this unit (no, it doesn't stack across activations, but what's better than doing all this in the first place? Doing it twice).

In different scenarios, I will likely incorporate different units. It took me several games to find a happy place with Mechanized Infantry, where my first game with Steel Legion sold me on using it, even with the 12 scrip price tag, wherever I can fit it. One of the other Aby players in my FLGS/Meta has had amazing success with Electrocutioners, which has led to my also evangelizing for them (in spite of my own lack of familiarity with them causing me to often make mistakes). With more practice and more time internalizing how the cogs of Aby work together, I will likely find more use for the Mehal Sefari than I currently do (they're a fairly expensive counter-charge element at 9 scrip, but they come in handy against Cult and Hordes).

My primary hesitation at using Mechanized Infantry against KE is that you're trying to play the KE game against them. So generally speaking I would not do this, but the scenario and opposing force is known, so I have an idea of how I would go about it. If I were going in blind, I would likely use something different because KE typically out-ranges Aby and has more tools at their disposal for shooting with. By something different I mean Electrocutioners or Steel Legion, because my effort would be focused on getting them (1) into Glory and (2) up the table, ideally before they activate. That way, when they activate, they're already in position to get a lot of work done at a threat range that KE doesn't want to deal with against Aby.

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Combined Arms rules:

"During the game, the Combined Arms Fireteam uses
the Acting Values, Abilities, Actions, and Fireteam
size listed on its special Unit Card, rather than the
information listed on the normal Unit Card. In all
other ways, it functions as a normal Fireteam
in the unit it came with (including
Activations, Orders, etc.)."

So, given that aside from Acting Values, Abilities, Actions, and Fireteam size you treat it as a normal fireteam for that unit, does that mean you technically don't treat Combined Arms fireteams as Titans? I'm pretty sure it isn't intended to work that way but I think that's how it reads.

Also, do you deploy the Combined Arms separately from the rest of the unit, assuming they are supposed to be treated as Titans?

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1 hour ago, solkan said:

I love having the argument about this statement.  Can you explain where in the rulebook you get that a rule saying that the "Squad" taking an Action means that every fire team in the unit takes an Action?

There's an Asset which says

That doesn't say to choose a fire team to do it, either, yet you have to in order to resolve the Action.

Well it doesn't mention a specific fireteam to take the action.... it says the squad takes the action.... a squad beingmade up of multiple fireteams.... if it was a single fireteam.... it would be worded something like fenton brahms kill them all.... or unathi's field tet... which say fireteaam specifically.

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1 hour ago, Jinn said:

Combined Arms rules:

[...]

So, given that aside from Acting Values, Abilities, Actions, and Fireteam size you treat it as a normal fireteam for that unit, does that mean you technically don't treat Combined Arms fireteams as Titans? I'm pretty sure it isn't intended to work that way but I think that's how it reads.

Also, do you deploy the Combined Arms separately from the rest of the unit, assuming they are supposed to be treated as Titans?

1) No, they are still Titans and they are not Squads (you cannot pass off damage from Champions onto a Walker/Cutter), though they still have to follow Cohesion if they're the CA in a unit that is otherwise made of Squad Fireteams

2) No, the unit includes a Titan and thus the unit is deployed in the Titan step

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40 minutes ago, retnab said:

2) No, the unit includes a Titan and thus the unit is deployed in the Titan step

Easy to miss but on Page 39: ".... (This does not change the Unit's Special rules for game rules, Like Deployment)." 

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3 hours ago, necroon said:

Easy to miss but on Page 39: ".... (This does not change the Unit's Special rules for game rules, Like Deployment)." 

That's.. something I've been misplaying for a little while now :) Will make deployment a little less telegraphing of posture

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8 hours ago, Vanilla_Dice said:

Well it doesn't mention a specific fireteam to take the action.... it says the squad takes the action.... a squad beingmade up of multiple fireteams.... if it was a single fireteam.... it would be worded something like fenton brahms kill them all.... or unathi's field tet... which say fireteaam specifically.

Yes, the squad takes an action. After any single fireteam in the squad does so the squad has now taken an action. If another fireteam takes an action you have now done more than taking an action.

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18 hours ago, Vanilla_Dice said:

Wrt the thrace wording..... it says fireteam to establish range and target..... but it says "squad" gets to take a shoot..... so do it behind a squad of mehals.... and watch all 3 fireteams which are in that "squad" fire away

Best case scenario, it's going to have to be FAQ'ed.   The wording on Thrace vs Endmonton and Brahms is definitely odd.  (Thrace has "target squad takes an action" while the other two very explicitly say "one fireteam that's part of a squad takes an action").  At this point thought that's apparently not a relevant distinction and is apparently odd "just because".  Personally I think you're right, but at this point you're not going to get much traction on here without official support.

 

For my fellow pedants who may call me out for "unfairly paraphrasing":

Thrace: "Target squad with at least one Fireteam in range takes a :ToS-Range: action."

Edmonton: "Target squad gains an Inspired Token.  One of its Fireteams may take a :ToS-Range: action."

Brahms: "Target friendly Fireteam that is part of a Squad takes a :ToS-Melee: or :ToS-spell:  Action targeting an enemy Fireteam."

unrelated:  Why no spell emoji?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Clement said:

For my fellow pedants who may call me out for "unfairly paraphrasing":

Thrace: "Target squad with at least one Fireteam in range takes a :ToS-Range: action."

Edmonton: "Target squad gains an Inspired Token.  One of its Fireteams may take a :ToS-Range: action."

Brahms: "Target friendly Fireteam that is part of a Squad takes a :ToS-Melee: or :ToS-spell:  Action targeting an enemy Fireteam."

This is something we've had to adjust to in M2e as well. Wording for similar effects is not always consistent. I do agree that if an FAQ/official ruling comes down that says:

Quote

change the wording on Samantha Thrace to: "Every Fireteam in the target Squad may take a :ToS-Range: action."


We'll adjust accordingly. I know that for me it would eliminate potential disruption-by-argument of a game in progress because it would be something easily referenced. Similarly, for people who are looking at the "[Squad] takes a" part and thinking that it means every fireteam can, I am hopeful that things would be clarified if a ruling came out that said:

Quote

change the wording on Samantha Thrace to: "One Fireteam in the Target squad takes a :ToS-Range: action."

Either case would be clarifying and prevent the argument.

I mainly bring up the avoiding the argument piece because the last time I participated in a GW tournament for the grimdark futuristic game, the whole experience turned sour for many of us because the people at the top table were arguing about minutiae during the game and millimeter differences when time was called, all while jostling the table (and thus moving models and terrain while arguing about placement). I'd like to avoid pedantic arguments at the table, especially when playing in an event and/or at the FLGS. We want events to run smoothly and people to be interested in joining in the hobby, not getting turned off by repellent behavior.

That said: the main topic for this thread is dealing with King's Empire, with a specific scenario being the primary motivator. Perhaps any arguments about specific wording on the Guild Envoy champion should be in their own thread in the appropriate channel. That way someone seeing the "help me KE keeps shooting my face off" topic isn't getting sidetracked so much, yeah? (I'm guilty too, I know ;))

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1 hour ago, Clement said:

Best case scenario, it's going to have to be FAQ'ed.   The wording on Thrace vs Endmonton and Brahms is definitely odd.  (Thrace has "target squad takes an action" while the other two very explicitly say "one fireteam that's part of a squad takes an action").  At this point thought that's apparently not a relevant distinction and is apparently odd "just because".  Personally I think you're right, but at this point you're not going to get much traction on here without official support.

That's us forum rules lawyers for you, killing the dreams and unreasonable rules interpretations one person at a time.  🥀

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For my fellow pedants who may call me out for "unfairly paraphrasing":

Thrace: "Target squad with at least one Fireteam in range takes a :ToS-Range: action."

Edmonton: "Target squad gains an Inspired Token.  One of its Fireteams may take a :ToS-Range: action."

Brahms: "Target friendly Fireteam that is part of a Squad takes a :ToS-Melee: or :ToS-spell:  Action targeting an enemy Fireteam."

For the sake of the whole damned argument, and all of the other effects that this argument spills over to because of wording irregularities...

Abyssinia Machinations Stratagem:

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For the remainder of the Turn:

All friendly units may take a 🚩Action in addition to any other Actions they can take.

...

The Overclocked Stratagem:

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When you play this Stratagem:

Take the Action on a friendly Prototype Asset without discarding a card.

...

 

Machinations is one (1) additional Action per unit, not one per fire team in the unit.  Likewise, Overclocked results in the action on the Prototype Asset being performed once by a fire team in a unit possessing that prototype asset.  

...

For comparison, the Electric Megaphone asset has an action which says

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Target Squad with one or more Fireteams in range gains a Reinforcement Token.

while Relics of Ancient Malifaux has an action which says

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Target friendly Fireteam gains a Reinforcement Token.   It may immediately reinforce.

The sentences in red both result in the unit gaining a Reinforcement Token because that's how Tokens work--they belong to the unit, not the fire teams.

The irregular Action generating effects are essentially the reverse--You're told the unit or Squad takes an action, but Actions are performed by fire teams.  

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I'm guessing part of the difference to Thraces wording is because the fire team that takes the shot does not have to be in range of the action (unlike Fentons where the fire team that takes the action has to be in range, I think). Imagine the fun if she could be on the same team as something like the ECB, with teams all over the board thanks to Rogue agents.  (Which wouldn't be possible with Spookys changed wording, which is always one of the issues. It would  change the action, not just clarify.)

My TOS rules knowledge is still lacking, but I can't see anything that suggests "the Squad taking an action" is every possible part of the squad takes an action rather than any part of the squad takes an action

 

 

 

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