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3 hours ago, trikk said:

Well, 3 if you count Lynch. But apart from Lilith, which was removed due to fluff reasons, both Lynch and Collodi didn't really fit in neverborn. Collodi is a nice concept but fluffwise he's non-existant because he has 0 interactions with others because... why would he?

Because someone decided he wouldn't have to. Collodi could easily fill the same part nytemare had.

Could say "didn't fit in" about a bunch of Master in almost all factions. Neverborn weren't a very cohesive force. Besides the 3 Ladys everybody just did their own thing. That didn't made them any less Neverborn or prevented players to fall in love with them.

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9 minutes ago, Tors said:

Because someone decided he wouldn't have to. Collodi could easily fill the same part nytemare had.

Could say "didn't fit in" about a bunch of Master in almost all factions. Neverborn weren't a very cohesive force. Besides the 3 Ladys everybody just did their own thing. That didn't made them any less Neverborn or prevented players to fall in love with them.

Well, Lucius fits way more than Nytemare, Lynch and Collodi. Same as Titania. Nytemare fits because he's at least in the fluff and is important to the malifaux world. Lynch doesn't have any connection to neverborn except Hungering Darkness (which doesn't have the same interests as other neverborn) and Graves/Tannen that are basically his bodyguards/slavers.

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9 minutes ago, trikk said:

Nytemare fits because he's at least in the fluff and is important to the malifaux world.

He's in the fluff and important to the Malifaux world but that doesn't make him fit the Neverborn. He probably should've been an Outcast and him being Neverborn doesn't make much more sense than if he were part of the Gremlin faction.

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27 minutes ago, trikk said:

Well, Lucius fits way more than Nytemare, Lynch and Collodi. Same as Titania. Nytemare fits because he's at least in the fluff and is important to the malifaux world. Lynch doesn't have any connection to neverborn except Hungering Darkness (which doesn't have the same interests as other neverborn) and Graves/Tannen that are basically his bodyguards/slavers.

You realize this is a completly subjective statement backed by nothing but your own Interpretation and feelings, which may differ from a vast majority of players? And that this feeling doesn't invalidate any other point of view as it isn't beeing invalidated by those either?

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6 minutes ago, Tors said:

You realize this is a completly subjective statement backed by nothing but your own Interpretation and feelings, which may differ from a vast majority of players? And that this feeling doesn't invalidate any other point of view as it isn't beeing invalidated by those either?

Of course it is. I just gave a possible reason as to why (IMO) Collodi was moved to DMH. We'll probably never know for sure.

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1 hour ago, trikk said:

Of course it is. I just gave a possible reason as to why (IMO) Collodi was moved to DMH. We'll probably never know for sure.

It was said we'll have some explanation in the lore to come.

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I'm also afraid part of DMH's existence is due to marketing. Need to introduce new Masters and sell them, but you also want all factions to start out with the same number of Masters.

DMH, so far, is just a way of saying "If you REALLY want, you can still play those models". Telling players that half their collection is never going to see the table again would probably be disastrous. So we have this alternative solution in its place. I also think we will have new plastics for them in the next book or two. If I'm wrong and the plan is to just let these masters starvebout without further support in future books... then they should probably just go ahead and make them proxies for other things.

I personally preferred if Wyrd put more confidence behind DMH and removed the "Not officially allowed in tournaments" clause.

I think most TOs will still allow DMH, especially at first, but right now it just looks like it's a "for fun" option. 

I'm hoping the open Beta will see DMH tested a lot more than it has been and we end with balanced crews that deserve upgrades and the Wyrd stamp of approval for tournament play.

 

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8 minutes ago, bedjy said:

It was said we'll have some explanation in the lore to come.

Yes, but it will be a reason to "sell" the idea, not the reason behind it most likely

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4 minutes ago, trikk said:

Yes, but it will be a reason to "sell" the idea, not the reason behind it most likely

I also think this is the case. 

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It has been a while since I read my fluff but I remember a few things.

In the Book 4 vignettes, it is written that Collodi leaves Malifaux city to search for his maker if I remember correctly.

If the inventor is ancient, given that most of the Fae died a long time ago, his maker would be either a powerful immortal or even a Tyrant.

I wonder if they will relate this search for an inventor with the symbol that Ramos uses on his own creations and that (again if I remember correctly) comes from ancient Malifaux books.

Or they could relate the maker to an old novel  (M1E book so my memory may not be good) where the name Collodi is used for a somewhat different creature (still a doll maker though) that attacks a village, killing people in their sleep with his dolls to recharge soulstones. But I wonder if they have not just dropped this storyline altogether.

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When ‘12 Names for 13 Tyrants’ thread got the Other Side lore added to it, I was reminded that Collodi was one of the masters affected by the first step of the ritual the Governor-General cast to spread his will over all of Malifaux (Unmask! Unmask!, Chronicles 14). Collodi may have received more backlash than the subsequent night of the failed ascension than we realized, especially if the ‘Tyrants’ prisons weakening’ theme for third edition intersects with this inexplicable desire to find the construct creator.

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3 hours ago, Saduhem said:

I personally preferred if Wyrd put more confidence behind DMH and removed the "Not officially allowed in tournaments" clause.

That depends a lot on how balanced DMH really is. Being able to take them for any faction makes them incredibly powerful, so I'm not sure I'd want to see them tournament legal if that ends up being the case all the way through. And I say that as a big Collodi player. (The only Collodi models I'm missing are the arcane, brutal, shadow, lucky and hodgepodge effigies, and they're on order at the shop.)

I think I'd rather just play 2E sometimes to get to play the master I love than do DMH. Honestly I'm not sold on 3E yet, given the favtion changes, DMH and (this was the sticking point for me) the abandoning of the Conflux upgrades for the emissaries.

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46 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said:

That depends a lot on how balanced DMH really is. Being able to take them for any faction makes them incredibly powerful, so I'm not sure I'd want to see them tournament legal if that ends up being the case all the way through. And I say that as a big Collodi player. (The only Collodi models I'm missing are the arcane, brutal, shadow, lucky and hodgepodge effigies, and they're on order at the shop.)

I think I'd rather just play 2E sometimes to get to play the master I love than do DMH. Honestly I'm not sold on 3E yet, given the favtion changes, DMH and (this was the sticking point for me) the abandoning of the Conflux upgrades for the emissaries.

Tournament play absolutely requires them to actually BE balanced.  Given how specific each of their hiring pools would have to be, I think they each end up a "known quantity" versus other masters.  As to how they'd work "as a faction" in tournament settings it would really depend on implementation.   There are really 2 ways to think about it I think.

1) (the boring way) each DMH model has a normal faction still, and if DMH is allowed, they can go play with their "home faction".  So Lilith and Collodi go back to Neverborn, Nico to Ressers, etc.

2) (the awesome way)  DMH becomes it's own special "mash-up" supergroup of a faction where the abandoned gods of Malifaux yesteryear ride again to crush all who come before them. 

2 sounds like a LOT of fun, but also very expensive.

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2 hours ago, Barbagianni said:

Collodi's creator is of course a nice old man named Pinocchio.☺️

Or maybe could be Geppetto the creator of Collodi..as a second evil son.. 🤨?!!

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1 hour ago, Clement said:

There are really 2 ways to think about it I think.

IIRC they already said it wasn't either, every faction can run DMH masters unless otherwise specified (no Lilith in neverborn) and their pools pull from whatever faction they're in.

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I don't know where you go that, but DMH masters do NOT work in any faction. DMH is its own "faction" that doesn't share any models between each other. They can only hire a specific pool of models noted on the front of their cards or that share their keyword.

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I like that Malifaux is a story driven game, and it's good for sales to have prople put down some models and buy others but... is DMH the way to go about it?

We get a non-faction with no upgrades that is conditionally allowed in tournaments with models that are probably going to be out of it eventually and I bet  no one will ever be added to it in the future.

If anyone goes missing in the fluff, do other Masters get booted to DMH too? I think the "because lore" isn't really the determining factor. Are we going to lose exactly 1 master per faction whenever something gets added to it so that they stay even? Are the new Masters just never going to die till M4e? Are the DMH just going to get new plastics and cards next book and get shuffled across factions to keep the same number of masters in each faction?

It really just looks like M3e needs to ship out with new shinies and some stuff got thrown in DMH to make room for them. It looks like a convenient placeholder till they get reintroduced. 

I'd rather have DMH models be 100% supported or just not be there until the company is ready to bring them back in, if ever. 

I'd honestly rather not have DMH at all.

Are we really going to have masters get put in there whenever they're absent in the story?

Would it be that bad to have factions with an uneven number of Masters? Can't they just be placed back where they were?

If the aim is to have them balanced and 100% playable, why have DMH in the first place? 

Is this move really necessary from a financial perspective for the company? That's the only reason I can see for pushing this this Pseudo faction in the game. It certainly isn't to make players happy. It's just a guess, but I'd say that there are more people hating the idea than ones loving it. Poll, perhaps?

I hate sounding negative, especially since I really like M3e, but DMH just doesn't make sense to me. 

Is it really adding more to the game than it's taking away?

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I liked it from the start, buy the more I look at the artwork, the more I like it (and this is actually fairly unusual for me as usually the artwork takes a while to grow on me).

I love the similarity to the Gibbering Hordes aesthetic in the Alps, Coppelius and especially the critter snuggling his legs. I imagine that's what terrifies the Dreamer, so it makes sense that's what he'd unleash on his foes. 

As for Chompy, as the Dreamer gets older and his imagination becomes more twisted, why wouldn't Chompy become more twisted? Again the torso maw harks back to the Devouring Eel. His also an incorporeal dream phantom, why would he need to limit himself to our comfortable human proportions? 

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3 hours ago, Da Git said:

I liked it from the start, buy the more I look at the artwork, the more I like it (and this is actually fairly unusual for me as usually the artwork takes a while to grow on me).

I love the similarity to the Gibbering Hordes aesthetic in the Alps, Coppelius and especially the critter snuggling his legs. I imagine that's what terrifies the Dreamer, so it makes sense that's what he'd unleash on his foes. 

As for Chompy, as the Dreamer gets older and his imagination becomes more twisted, why wouldn't Chompy become more twisted? Again the torso maw harks back to the Devouring Eel. His also an incorporeal dream phantom, why would he need to limit himself to our comfortable human proportions? 

I really want those Alps. I guess I can use some striped skulkers in the meanwhile. And yeah, the fact that his nightmares start looking like Gibbering Hordes units is a really nice touch. 

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I think the new Dreamer looks awesome. I agree that dad bod chunky chompy looks a bit weird but the rest look amazing. We can always mix and match M2E and M3E crews to get the look we like, more model options is always good (can't wait for a new Toshiro model... I dislike the 2e version so much)

I played DMH Collodi in the closed beta a few times and just want to say that he was so much fun. The crew is very nicely balanced and he feels more like a puppet master than ever before. He can hire versatile Neverborn models but I didn't feel I needed to as the puppet keyword had everything I needed. I'd say about 30% of games I play are tournament so that leaves a lot of friendly games to play Collodi or other DMH Masters.

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19 minutes ago, Athiko said:

I think the new Dreamer looks awesome. I agree that dad bod chunky chompy looks a bit weird but the rest look amazing. We can always mix and match M2E and M3E crews to get the look we like, more model options is always good (can't wait for a new Toshiro model... I dislike the 2e version so much)

I played DMH Collodi in the closed beta a few times and just want to say that he was so much fun. The crew is very nicely balanced and he feels more like a puppet master than ever before. He can hire versatile Neverborn models but I didn't feel I needed to as the puppet keyword had everything I needed. I'd say about 30% of games I play are tournament so that leaves a lot of friendly games to play Collodi or other DMH Masters.

Were we in the same Beta group? Consesnsus in the blue one was that Collodi was in a terrible shape by the end, especially after the changes to Vasilisa and the wicked dolls. I've seen it referred as the "Collodi Catastrophe". Before that, he was mostly alright I think, the "Acts" really added to the puppetteering theme!

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