Flipping cards and cheating

[DeleteAccount]

Can a card that is just flipped be cheated? My assumption is no since cheating seems to only apply to duels and penetration flips but would like to clarify. I'm asking this for effects like the ECB Black Ops death triangle.

Also, if they cannot cheat it, can they reflip it using a Ta token?

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Razhem said:

Can a card that is just flipped be cheated? My assumption is no since cheating seems to only apply to duels and penetration flips but would like to clarify. I'm asking this for effects like the ECB Black Ops death triangle.

Also, if they cannot cheat it, can they reflip it using a Ta token?

You've been mislead by the statement in the rules:

Quote

In duels, Cheating Fate follows a specific timing.

That statement is there because there are two players involved, and you'd either get card slapping or "Uh uh, I want you to cheat first."

You can cheat any flip that doesn't say otherwise.  Like the penetration flip rules saying that you can't cheat those when performed by fire team that's missing models.

Whether or not you can Cheat a flip, you can spend a tactics token to flip the additional card.  It's a completely independent thing, granted by the Tactics Token rules.  Again, the Duels steps specify details because there are potentially two players involved.  Note that the statement about one token of each type being used to modify a duel resulting in a limit of one tactics token for each player is mostly redundant--the callout box on the page with the Cheating rules creates an equivalent "one Tactics token per flip" restriction.

 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

Followup: so you can cheat Area flips, correct? 

This is the "You May Not Cheat This" list according the search function:

• You chose to keep the Black Joker in a Flip even though you didn't need to and could have spent a Tactics Token to flip an additional card.  
• Penetration Flips "if the Penetration flip is the result of an Action performed by a Fireteam with one or more missing models".
• The Hit from the Disarm Trap action in the Set Traps scenario
• The Penetration Flips caused by the Bouncing Bombs trigger on the Discus Grenades asset
• Dreadnought's Crushing Legs's Penetration Flips.
• The Hits from the Electrocutioners' 1.21 Gigawatts action.
• The Breachling's Oops hits (a.k.a blowing up a Breachling)
• The Flip for Fast Healing on the Fast Regeneration asset
• The Flips for Constrict on the Writhing Coils asset
• Horomatangi's Cloud of Steam Hits.
• The Hits caused by the Artillery Strike strategem

The Bonus Trivia Argument Bullet Point

• The flip to determine operation.  If you perform a flip before anyone has a Control Hand, can it be Cheated?  😛

Half of that list are pulses that, as far as I can tell, aren't Area effects simply so that they can be specified as unCheatable.  But, for ALL of those Flips you could spend a Tactics Token to flip an additional card if you had any Tactics Tokens.

 

[DeleteAccount]

24 minutes ago, solkan said:

You've been mislead by the statement in the rules:

That statement is there because there are two players involved, and you'd either get card slapping or "Uh uh, I want you to cheat first."

You can cheat any flip that doesn't say otherwise.  Like the penetration flip rules saying that you can't cheat those when performed by fire team that's missing models.

Whether or not you can Cheat a flip, you can spend a tactics token to flip the additional card.  It's a completely independent thing, granted by the Tactics Token rules.  Again, the Duels steps specify details because there are potentially two players involved.  Note that the statement about one token of each type being used to modify a duel resulting in a limit of one tactics token for each player is mostly redundant--the callout box on the page with the Cheating rules creates an equivalent "one Tactics token per flip" restriction.

 

So when doing the Burning Man Walks or the death triangle you can cheat as you want some of the cards?

[solkan]

5 hours ago, Razhem said:

So when doing the Burning Man Walks or the death triangle you can cheat as you want some of the cards?

 

For The Burning Man Descends, that's not a "flip":

Quote

Place the top six cards of your Fate Deck into the Conflict, resolving the below once per suit in the Conflict.

Disclaimer:  I presume that after you resolve the cards, they get discarded to clean out the Conflict.

Same for the ECB death triangle:

Quote

On any Turn after the first, if there are three unengaged Fireteams in this unit, discard the top card of your deck for every enemy Fireteam within the triangular area between this unit’s Fireteams. On a , the Fireteam the card was discarded for suffers a Strength 4 Hit. You may not Cheat these Penetration Flips.

  You can Cheat and/or spend a Tactics Token on a Flip.  But it'll be called a flip if it's a Flip.

[trikk]

Followup: so you can cheat Area flips, correct? 

Quote

If the Action was successful, as part
of Resolve Effects, flip a card.

 

[trikk]

4 minutes ago, solkan said:

This is the "You May Not Cheat This" list according the search function:

• You chose to keep the Black Joker in a Flip even though you didn't need to and could have spent a Tactics Token to flip an additional card.  
• Penetration Flips "if the Penetration flip is the result of an Action performed by a Fireteam with one or more missing models".
• The Hit from the Disarm Trap action in the Set Traps scenario
• The Penetration Flips caused by the Bouncing Bombs trigger on the Discus Grenades asset
• Dreadnought's Crushing Legs's Penetration Flips.
• The Hits from the Electrocutioners' 1.21 Gigawatts action.
• The Breachling's Oops hits (a.k.a blowing up a Breachling)
• The Flip for Fast Healing on the Fast Regeneration asset
• The Flips for Constrict on the Writhing Coils asset
• Horomatangi's Cloud of Steam Hits.
• The Hits caused by the Artillery Strike strategem

The Bonus Trivia Argument Bullet Point

• The flip to determine operation.  If you perform a flip before anyone has a Control Hand, can it be Cheated?  😛

Half of that list are pulses that, as far as I can tell, aren't Area effects simply so that they can be specified as unCheatable.  But, for ALL of those Flips you could spend a Tactics Token to flip an additional card if you had any Tactics Tokens.

 

Is that a "Yes, Area can be cheated/tokened?"

[solkan]

8 minutes ago, trikk said:

Is that a "Yes, Area can be cheated/tokened?"

No.  This is:

On 1/9/2019 at 5:06 AM, solkan said:

You can cheat any flip that doesn't say otherwise.

So, yes, even Area can be cheated or tokened.

[NeaTheOutcast]

So, if you use a tactics token then, you can ignore your natural black joker draw by flipping a new card to replace it? Then black jokers mean nothing in this game?

[retnab]

36 minutes ago, NeaTheOutcast said:

So, if you use a tactics token then, you can ignore your natural black joker draw by flipping a new card to replace it? Then black jokers mean nothing in this game?

Not nothing, you can't cheat on the BJ but spending a TT to reflip is still an option.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, NeaTheOutcast said:

So, if you use a tactics token then, you can ignore your natural black joker draw by flipping a new card to replace it? Then black jokers mean nothing in this game?

If by “nothing” you mean “It will cost you a tactics token to get out of this situation, even if you already had your card in your hand”, then, sure.