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1 hour ago, misterfinn said:

^ This. It's a simple matter of consideration for the wider community. Closed beta testers have been grinding on this stuff for months. It's not new and shiny for us anymore, but it was once and we were all excited about delving into it. Remember how cool it was to see the new stuff? Now the forum community at large has the same opportunity. Would it have been as fun if alpha testers jumped in immediately, posting all of the things they liked/hated about alpha? Nope. If a few people (including me) keep their mouths shut for A FEW DAYS, many people have a more enjoyable experience. How is that even an issue that requires discussion? Show some empathy, for crying out loud.

As someone waiting for 3e to jump in, I would prefer that the beta testers be 100% open as that will make the strongest edition of the game. Frank, realistic feedback is best.

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Hey Wyrdos, We’re thrilled to announce that on Wednesday, January 16th, we will be launching an OPEN BETA for Malifaux Third Edition! Many of you have gone through the grueling process of te

I think they are watching the forums and social media and wallow in people's anguish. The kinetic energy of everyone's eye-twitching while waiting for the files are powering their servers.

Tournament players, casual players, and new players all provide completely different types of feedback, all of which are equally as important when making a game. A new player might not be able to

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15 minutes ago, blueskies_overhead said:

As someone waiting for 3e to jump in, I would prefer that the beta testers be 100% open as that will make the strongest edition of the game. Frank, realistic feedback is best.

I agree, but there is the fact some people make a lot of noise with their disagreement even if they are "wrong" for everyone. 

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I don't think the intent is to hide things, but the closed testers will have their own views on things based on old data. 

For example I disliked M2e Mei Feng. But that is because I really enjoyed her First edition version, and that knowledge coloured my view of her second. If I had never seen the older version I might have liked the new version. So my opinion of her was based on things that don't effect most M2e players.

But I wouldn't worry, you'll see plenty of opinions from old testers and new.

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17 hours ago, WWHSD said:

Most of the people that will be in the open beta don't want to test. They just want to play M3E. That was true of a decent number of folks that participated in the closed beta. 

There's a ton of "group think" and "common knowledge" on game forums. I'd like to think that I'm too smart for that but I know I fall victim to it just like everyone else.

Not going to lie, this will likely be me. I don't get to play often and I'm not good enough to really provide nuanced feedback, so my observations will probably be minimal - I am looking forward to seeing the rules and the profiles though - and playing, obviously!

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Thank you Kyle for the info about the open beta, and I'm looking forward to the post next Wednesday.  I'm excited for the larger community to get their hands on the work the Dev team and testers have been working on for the last few months. 

Personally, I'd prefer people hold off on passing out beta files until Wyrd creates the new forum and posts the docs.   Reasoning behind this is:

  1. Wyrd may be doing some in house tweaking, so the files that exist could be out of date.
  2. As soon as files start dropping people will want to ask questions / comment on them, so holding off till next week gives Wyrd time for the web infrastructure / personnel to handle those comments / posts.
  3. Its a big milestone for Wyrd, let them have their thunder and give them the reveal.

Beyond that, I'm excited to hear about the open beta, especially as this will allow some tournament / larger group events to really kick the tires on the system and find the odd models / combos that are broken / OP.  I hope that there'll be some posts in the open forum from the devs about goals / things to test.  I don't have that much time to play, so I'd rather not waste my limited testing time testing / thinking up solutions to things that are deemed as 'finished / set in stone'.

I'm sure as soon as the forums are up the community will quickly ramp up and the gap between closed and open beta testers will disappear.  There may be some war stories and 'i miss x' comments, but in general, Malifaux players (while prone to theory-faux and group think) are thoughtful and polite.  We also all want the same thing, a fantastic product we'll happily play for years to come.  M3e is already that product for me, and additional tuning will only reinforce that opinion.

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1 hour ago, theamazingmrg said:

Not going to lie, this will likely be me. I don't get to play often and I'm not good enough to really provide nuanced feedback, so my observations will probably be minimal - I am looking forward to seeing the rules and the profiles though - and playing, obviously!

Don't be silly. "Good" players are just as much players as "bad" ones, and they can provide unique insight into the game that's just as valuable. Is the game difficult to get into? Difficult to parse what's happening? Hard to make good decisions? Punished too hard for making those bad decisions? Requires too much "insight" to feel like you're playing? This is all stuff that a tourney player isn't going to see the same way a more casual player would, but is just as critical for the success of M3E. 

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2 hours ago, blueskies_overhead said:

As someone waiting for 3e to jump in, I would prefer that the beta testers be 100% open as that will make the strongest edition of the game. Frank, realistic feedback is best.

It's about the timing of that feedback. Closed beta testers have had months of giving feedback to Wyrd. There's no reason to make that feedback available to the larger open beta community until after those players have had an opportunity to read and experience the content. Much of the feedback from closed beta testers is going to be colored by their experiences earlier in the beta with things that have changed and may not actually be all that valid for a new group of eyes. 

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46 minutes ago, retnab said:

Also don't forget to always colour code your batreps! Makes skimming through much easier on people who don't have time to read every one of them

On that topic, when copy/pasting your batreps form wherever, please post as plain text.  Some of us use the default theme for these forums and just copy pasting into it can lead to black text on black background.

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3 hours ago, blueskies_overhead said:

Yeah, one opinion should not be more important than another.

Well, that sounds nice, but realistically, a player that has put models on the table should (and will have) more weight than somebody speaking from theory.

Also, a tournament veteran's world would carry more weight than somebody new to the game (though not always a mechanic being op or up I put more stock on the vet, but when it comes to fun factor, well that can go either way) in my eyes by far.

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27 minutes ago, Razhem said:

Well, that sounds nice, but realistically, a player that has put models on the table should (and will have) more weight than somebody speaking from theory.

Also, a tournament veteran's world would carry more weight than somebody new to the game (though not always a mechanic being op or up I put more stock on the vet, but when it comes to fun factor, well that can go either way) in my eyes by far.

It really depends on what the specific feedback is. There are some types of feedback that hardcore tournament players that are playing 5+ test games a week are less qualified to be making than someone that recently started playing, has a limited collection, and only gets in a single test game every other week. More casual players are a better reflection on how approachable and understandable the rules are and how limiting playing with a smaller selection of models can be. 

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I can't wait to have everyone involved in the Beta. The fact that playing different crews feels almost like playing a different game is just amazing. Seriously, playing Jack Daw, Von Schill, and Parker will make you forget they belong to the same faction.
I also think that ANYONE can now get a competitive crew with the crew box and 2-3 outside purchases because of how keyword hiring works.
A miniature game that can see you win tournaments with less than 100$ spent throughout your entire Malifaux Career? That's just mind-blowing. You like Lynch's gambling theme but not so interested in Oriental swordsmen? No problem, M3e has got you covered! I expect people to dabble in multiple factions instead of feeling like they "have to" own everything in a single one to stay competitive. And not having to paint models you don't like? Oh yeah. That's a thing now.

Given how accessible the game will be for everyone (in financial terms), I think the hardest thing to do from now on will be balancing the game in a way that is streamlined and fast enough to make new players fall in love with it right away while, at the same time, keeping the game cerebral enough for the players that got into Malifaux for its complexity. 

Without going into talks of specific crew balancing, I would love for the new players help identify ways to make the game faster. Please remember that playtesting takes longer than just playing, and there is going to be a slow-down in the flow of the game just from having to read new stat cards all the time, but overall the game is still a bit slow and I am dying to hear new suggestions about speeding things up!

I also need more people to complain to about last names.... oops, spoilers.

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1 hour ago, Saduhem said:

I expect people to dabble in multiple factions instead of feeling like they "have to" own everything in a single one to stay competitive. And not having to paint models you don't like? Oh yeah. That's a thing now.

That and the fact that factions have only around 10-ish Versatile models each means that there's less of a feeling that you need to buy everything to have all the options for each keyword

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7 hours ago, Saduhem said:

I can't wait to have everyone involved in the Beta. The fact that playing different crews feels almost like playing a different game is just amazing. Seriously, playing Jack Daw, Von Schill, and Parker will make you forget they belong to the same faction.
I also think that ANYONE can now get a competitive crew with the crew box and 2-3 outside purchases because of how keyword hiring works.
A miniature game that can see you win tournaments with less than 100$ spent throughout your entire Malifaux Career? That's just mind-blowing. You like Lynch's gambling theme but not so interested in Oriental swordsmen? No problem, M3e has got you covered! I expect people to dabble in multiple factions instead of feeling like they "have to" own everything in a single one to stay competitive. And not having to paint models you don't like? Oh yeah. That's a thing now.

Given how accessible the game will be for everyone (in financial terms), I think the hardest thing to do from now on will be balancing the game in a way that is streamlined and fast enough to make new players fall in love with it right away while, at the same time, keeping the game cerebral enough for the players that got into Malifaux for its complexity. 

Without going into talks of specific crew balancing, I would love for the new players help identify ways to make the game faster. Please remember that playtesting takes longer than just playing, and there is going to be a slow-down in the flow of the game just from having to read new stat cards all the time, but overall the game is still a bit slow and I am dying to hear new suggestions about speeding things up!

I also need more people to complain to about last names.... oops, spoilers.

That’s exactly what I hoped for M3E, I’m listening to the Breachside Broadcast and I’m loving the background of various casters from different factions. Being able to play them without having to invest in the whole faction is HUGE!

The only problem is that I like too many masters for my limited walled and play time 😭

Any chance to have a preview of how Ophelia and her Kin play in M3E?

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I''ll just add that while batreps are good for figuring out numbers and costs, sometimes all it takes is theoryfaux to see that something is:

a) very bad (never hire)
b) very good (always hire)
c) very unfun
d) poorly explained 

;)

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I want to say a BIG THANK YOU to Wyrd!

:)

Most games released are "closed betas": betas you have to pay for and a month later they will be made alpha with FAQ and errata. So to make it an open beta, fix some problems and smoth it so the official release can be as good as it can be is a great step. For me it underlines that Wyrd wants to deliver a product we all like and will have fun with.

THANKS A LOT!

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36 minutes ago, trikk said:

I''ll just add that while batreps are good for figuring out numbers and costs, sometimes all it takes is theoryfaux to see that something is:

a) very bad (never hire)
b) very good (always hire)
c) very unfun
d) poorly explained 

;)

As long as you're prepared that sometimes the theoryfaux is wrong.

And you don't always know when that is without testing it in an actual game. ;)

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1 minute ago, Adran said:

As long as you're prepared that sometimes the theoryfaux is wrong.

And you don't always know when that is without testing it in an actual game. ;)

No opinion is entirely and 100% accurate, but I can tell you there are situations where you don`t need a batrep to test it out. You usually need a baseline (which is a lot harder in a new edition compared to a new book)

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36 minutes ago, trikk said:

I''ll just add that while batreps are good for figuring out numbers and costs, sometimes all it takes is theoryfaux to see that something is:

a) very bad (never hire)
b) very good (always hire)
c) very unfun
d) poorly explained 

;)

Well said. I would also like to add, that there are also hundreds of models to test, and most of them won't appear in that many battle reports. It may be because they are not very popular, don't have easily available models or because the rules don't seem that interesting. Getting an accurate estimate of a model's power level based on battle reports alone would take at least dozens of reports. That is just a mathematical fact.

Theorycrafting, or as it is called in real world, modeling and simulation let's us test the rules in a much more time efficient way. It's not just a yelling competition without any foundation in reality. Many theorycrafters use actual mathematics as foundation for their theories. Miniature wargames are also extremely easy to simulate because the rules and interactions are very transparent and the underlying probabilities readily available. It's much easier than modeling real warfare, and even that is being done quite successfully.

While one should be careful about drawing definite conclusions based on theoretical analysis alone, it is an extremely powerful tool for finding the potentially under or overperforming models that deserve more playtesting attention.

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3 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Well said. I would also like to add, that there are also hundreds of models to test, and most of them won't appear in that many battle reports. It may be because they are not very popular, don't have easily available models or because the rules don't seem that interesting. Getting an accurate estimate of a model's power level based on battle reports alone would take at least dozens of reports. That is just a mathematical fact.

Theorycrafting, or as it is called in real world, modeling and simulation let's us test the rules in a much more time efficient way. It's not just a yelling competition without any foundation in reality. Many theorycrafters use actual mathematics as foundation for their theories. Miniature wargames are also extremely easy to simulate because the rules and interactions are very transparent and the underlying probabilities readily available. It's much easier than modeling real warfare, and even that is being done quite successfully.

While one should be careful about drawing definite conclusions based on theoretical analysis alone, it is an extremely powerful tool for finding the potentially under or overperforming models that deserve more playtesting attention.

how do you simulate movement tricks or sinergies from other models? Those things are not easy to get ex ante without playing a proper game. Am I wrong?

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AFAIR M2E has around 420 models. Testing them in isolation and in combination with other faction models (and considering huge hiring pools in M2E with other factions) is mathematically impossible without modeling/simulation, especially if you add in upgrades, schemes, etc.

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