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Waldo's Weekly - "I am the Key(word) Master!"


Kyle

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6 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

In which case, if  you didn't want a second faction, then perhaps a dual-faction Master wasn't the best choice in the first place?

This is an unfair statement. If you chose your masters 5 years ago thinking about edition changes, you really like planning ahead :D.

Speaking of McCabe a limited and expensive nightmare edition went out 3 years ago featuring mounted guards so McCabe would not have been my first change expectation.

In the same spirit, when I look at the latest alternative Tannen and Graves I do not expect them to change faction...

Nobody can really be expected to anticipate faction changes imho.

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3 hours ago, yool1981 said:

This is an unfair statement. If you chose your masters 5 years ago thinking about edition changes, you really like planning ahead :D.

Speaking of McCabe a limited and expensive nightmare edition went out 3 years ago featuring mounted guards so McCabe would not have been my first change expectation.

In the same spirit, when I look at the latest alternative Tannen and Graves I do not expect them to change faction...

Nobody can really be expected to anticipate faction changes imho.

A fair point.  Perhaps I was a bit harsh with that statement.  But the reverse is also true, buying something 5 years ago doesn't entitle you to have  everything remain exactly the same when a new edition comes further down the line.  Is it annoying when your models usefulness changes?  Sure.  But thats unfortunately how it is sometimes when an entire game line gets redesigned and rebalanced.

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I don’t care how unofficial it is, in any game I’m playing I will happily accept nightmare mounted guards as wanyudos. They’re giant wheels, they’re in what will be McCabe’s faction, close enough, paint them with extra flame-decal patterns and done. And if they end up being useless with McCabe...that’s not much different than McCabe’s box models in Guild now. And hopefully in turn my opponent won’t mind me fishing Ryle out of dead man’s hand (he asked to borrow Ryle for a flesh construct! the nerve! :().

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On 12/30/2018 at 7:22 PM, Bago said:

I will say now and clearly I care little for the games lore and story changes, I care for the game I play. I don't want to throw out models that have become obsolete due to bad decisions.

As someone with little disposable income, I can relate to this. I've lucked out in that my meager collection will actually benefit from the rules changes. I've purchased based on a theme (swampfiends) reguardless of the utility of the models in competitive play and even my models that jumped faction stayed in theme.

For me, the specific character lore is secondary to the game. The idea that a fiction author could just kill off one or several of my key models (masters) or have them switch allegiances and that ends up invalidating my purchases is annoying. The type of changes and growth that make good fiction aren't neccessarily the same changes and growth that help a game like this.

I played for years with paper proxies but felt that I should buy some models partly because it was a way to support a game I'd like to see gain prominence. I imagine it'd feel like a slap in the face if the company then scattered my models across different factions and keywords based mainly on story. Or at least make me feel like giving them my money is a bad personal investment when I have little money to invest.

Sorry for your luck Bago. Sincerely. Maybe Wyrd will hear your plea and be able to accomadate customers like you. Or maybe there are unrevealed elements of 3E that will address concerns (like a simple ugrade for your master that allows the hiring of specific models previously in the faction in M2E. A "legacy" ungrade if you will). Hopefully the new edition will at least bring new players who you can sell to/swap with. I'm hoping for some scene growth in my area.

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Mr. Tannen as unofficial proxy is more difficult. Alt-Graves was always going to be a second mature nephilim locally, just because we actually have a grow list Lilith player who has been proxying extra matures with everything Neverborn on a 50mm base already, and having something that looks like a nephilim at all will be better. Alt-Tannen is a design I love but I don’t know what Neverborn critter that sculpt suggests...suggestions welcome.

 

As for the untangling of the collections...as a Guildie, I decided to branch into Arcanists (already having M&SU stompybots) but not Ressers (I had given the canine remains & flesh construct to the Resser when I got McMourning) or Ten Thunders (there’s a 10T McCabe main currently, which was fine while he was dual faction and we played different factions, but might get crowded when he isn’t). So the McMourning remainder of the box went to the alt-McMourning who couldn’t play without the totem etc., the McCabe to another 10T player, and I got in return some Outcasts who won’t be mercenaries any more, to go with Marlena (who need a Zipp box to make them mesh together ;) ). The alt-performer is waiting for a Colette player to show up, but otherwise the collection untangled itself without too much fuss.

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13 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Mr. Tannen as unofficial proxy is more difficult. Alt-Graves was always going to be a second mature nephilim locally, just because we actually have a grow list Lilith player who has been proxying extra matures with everything Neverborn on a 50mm base already, and having something that looks like a nephilim at all will be better. Alt-Tannen is a design I love but I don’t know what Neverborn critter that sculpt suggests...suggestions welcome.

Insidious madness seems reasonable. Or any of the incorporeal woes. He kind fo reminds me of that painting The Scream and the old sorrows looked quite similar.

Could be a different twist on the Bandersnatch if you changed the base, or some other dreamer thing with a bit of imagination.

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The M2E faction bloat, alongside huge hiring pools is a nightmare to test, maintain and play competitively. Most crew-boxes were bought just for 1-3 models out of it because the hiring was pretty unlimited so the top lists were basically faction all-stars.

 

You can either improve the game overall with a few small hits to people (all the models are still viable, but some require different models) or you can not do anything and have a huge, unmaintainable mess. I know it hurts now, but in the longterm it's a good and needed decision.

 

Also, as for models you can play: the models that saw the shelf, because they are bad, might now actually see play as they have less competition:

M2E example: Changlings for 4SS are better than Terror Tots for 4SS, but Changelings for 5SS might not be better than Terror Tots.

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On 12/31/2018 at 2:08 AM, yool1981 said:

Nobody can really be expected to anticipate faction changes imho.

Nobody expects the Guild Inquisition!

I lost my TT Brewmaster to only be interested in adding Qi & Gong to my list (switching from moonshine to tea); Zipp being viable to my Outcasts then gave new life to having a Bayou only Brewmaster, as Zipp can then be part of the Bayou also.

I've been doing miniature games for almost 20 years now and RPG's for longer.  Games always change... that's the nature of the business.  Those games that stop changing cease to exist. I have boxes of old models from older versions of games I play that are completly unusable, and others that came back into use 3 editions later.  Love it or leave it, this is what the miniature gaming industry is.

Maybe you'll luck out and there will be some kind of loophole in upgrades that will let you use everything but Lucas and Luna with Dashel and you won't really miss out on much.... but plan for not having them and what you'll do then, even if that means dropping the game, because if you can't survive changes from 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th will just keep breaking your heart.... and don't even get me started on the pain from 4th to 5th!

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On 1/2/2019 at 4:47 AM, trikk said:

The M2E faction bloat, alongside huge hiring pools is a nightmare to test, maintain and play competitively. Most crew-boxes were bought just for 1-3 models out of it because the hiring was pretty unlimited so the top lists were basically faction all-stars.

 

You can either improve the game overall with a few small hits to people (all the models are still viable, but some require different models) or you can not do anything and have a huge, unmaintainable mess. I know it hurts now, but in the longterm it's a good and needed decision.

  

Also, as for models you can play: the models that saw the shelf, because they are bad, might now actually see play as they have less competition:

M2E example: Changlings for 4SS are better than Terror Tots for 4SS, but Changelings for 5SS might not be better than Terror Tots.

This is pretty much spot on. The current (M2E) hiring rules made sense when the game was much smaller and there were many fewer options within each theme, but at the current size it just means too many models get left on the sidelines. Keyword hiring also makes things much easier for new players, and the new rules avoid the "bait and switch" of buying a master you like the look of and learning that playing that master competitively means getting a bunch of models that have nothing to do with that master thematically.

Also, thanks for publishing the keyword list before M3E is officially released! It's really helpful for existing players who want to use this opportunity to reorganize / round out our collections so we're ready to hit the ground running. I've started building mini display boards for each keyword to make it easier to choose what to bring to game night.

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  • 6 months later...
1 hour ago, Hellomurse said:

Are there any plans to update this list? There are models missing from it (for example, order initiates for Marcus), and one of the keywords isn't even a keyword (Beast). I made a purchase that is invalid based on the current list, and I'm sure that other people may do the same.

All the correct keywords are on the website under each Master's page

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7 hours ago, Hellomurse said:

Are there any plans to update this list? There are models missing from it (for example, order initiates for Marcus), and one of the keywords isn't even a keyword (Beast). I made a purchase that is invalid based on the current list, and I'm sure that other people may do the same.

The list only has M2E models so you know what goes where. M3E boxes have the keyword on the box.

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6 hours ago, Hellomurse said:

Are there any plans to update this list? There are models missing from it (for example, order initiates for Marcus), and one of the keywords isn't even a keyword (Beast). I made a purchase that is invalid based on the current list, and I'm sure that other people may do the same.

As Retnab says, there is final keyword information on the M3 masters pages as to which models are in the masters keyword.

This list was from during the beta (as the post says) so subject to change (also specified in this post), one of which was the removal as Beast as a keyword (There are an aweful lot of beasts out there. Givign someone access to hire all of them is potentially pretty strong).

It is also stated as only a list of already existing models, so it was never going to include the order iniates, who are a new model for M3.

Sorry you made a purchase that doesn't work for what you currently own. I would have hoped people didn't just make purchases based on a models keyword, but rather also looked that the models rules, which if you'd followed the public beta may have seen some of the keyword change during it. Whilst there were a few keyword changes from this list, there were very few purchases that would have been completely invalidated. Sorry that you caught one of the few.

 

So in short, I don't think they are going to correct this list, as they have put the up to date information out on the new site in a different format.

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