Dimensional Instability, how does it work?

[LexLock]

I don't know about everyone else but I find the Dimensional Instability allegiance ability more than a little confusing.

Here's the wording:

Dimensional Instability: During Scouting, place three 50mm Portal Markers on the board in any location at least 8" from any other Markers and not in your opponent's deployment zone.When a Cult of the Burning Man Fireteam in this Company comes into (or starts in) base contact with a friendly Portal Marker you may place its unit in base contact with any other friendy Portal Marker. Fireteams that move in this way may not use any remaining movement that was granted by the Order, and cannot use the Dimensional Instability rule again during this Activation.

The first sentence of the ability makes sense but the rest of it can be interpreted in several ways.

"When a Cult of the Burning Man Fireteam in this Company comes into (or starts in) base contact with a friendly Portal Marker, you may place its unit in base contact with any other friendly Portal Marker." Is "Comes into base contact" supposed to include portals (or Stalking Portals) moving into btb with the fireteam being teleported, because the rules allow it and yet the Burning Man Descends stratagem has a specific allowance for the effect that occurs on a "move a portal Marker 1". If it comes into contact with a friendly Fireteam, that Fireteam's unit may immediately use the Portal Marker". On "starting" in base contact, does it mean starting an activation or a movement effect? If it means starting a movement effect it seems superfluous and if it means starting an activation it doesn't mesh with the wording later in the ability that restricts remaining movement from an order as an order hasn't been given yet.

"Fireteams that move in this way may not use any remaining movement that was granted by the Order" What Order and what movement is this sentence referring to? This sentence seems to imply that you need to use an Order (such as an advance or rush) to use the portal whereas earlier in the ability it states that you may teleport after starting in base contact with the Portal Marker (once again, is that starting movement or an activation?). As it is written it seems to be trying to stop you from say activating the Warped, teleporting across the board and then Rushing a further 16".

I hope Wyrd release an Errata or an FAQ at some point because the core ability of 1/4th of the models of the game is extremely open to interpretation and I'd like to know what version I should be running with in my games.

[solkan]

Just to be clear, and put everything in one post...

For the words

Quote

Dimensional Instability: During Scouting, place three 50mm Portal Markers on the board in any location at least 8" from any other Markers and not in your opponent's deployment zone.When a Cult of the Burning Man Fireteam in this Company comes into (or starts in) base contact with a friendly Portal Marker you may place its unit in base contact with any other friendy Portal Marker. Fireteams that move in this way may not use any remaining movement that was granted by the Order, and cannot use the Dimensional Instability rule again during this Activation.

They mean

• If you start in base contact with the marker, you can be placed by the portal, but the last sentence prohibits the models from using any of the movement granted by the unit’s Order.  It doesn’t matter that you haven’t chosen an order yet.
• If you move into base contact with the portal because of a non-Order effect, you can be placed by it.  A stratagem pointing this out is just a reminder.  The last sentence applies in this case as well.
• If you move into base contact with the portal because of the Order’s movement, of course the last sentence applies and means what it says.

 

[solkan]

5 hours ago, Jinn said:

Also... Wouldn't placing a model during deployment technically allow it to use the portals? This would allow for some nasty rushes on turn 1, so I hope people aren't playing it this way. Could be fun though 

Nasty rushes from everyone on turn one happen as soon as you play a dual commander game.   

Edit:  For deployment, I'm pretty sure you a game mechanic problem:

• Deployment isn't defined as movement.  And the deployment paragraph doesn't say the word "place" anywhere.
• If deployment isn't movement, then two things placed in base contact with each other haven't "come into" base contact.  And the game hasn't started yet so they can't yet "start in" base contact with anything yet.  The game starts in "Play!", after Deployment.

For what it's worth, I remember someone claiming there was going to be an errata to portals due to breaking them.  I don't know if that was convention high spirits or not.  

[retnab]

When a Fireteam 1) comes into 2) or starts in base contact with a friendly Portal Marker.  So if it starts its activation b2b with one, it can go through it.  If during any movement effect (via moving the portal marker or the Fireteam, so long as their bases contact) then the unit can go through it.  If the movement effect used was an Order (Advance, Rush) then you don't get to use any more of it after using Dimensional Instability.

5 hours ago, LexLock said:

As it is written it seems to be trying to stop you from say activating the Warped, teleporting across the board and then Rushing a further 16".

That's pretty much exactly why.

[LexLock]

1 hour ago, retnab said:

When a Fireteam 1) comes into 2) or starts in base contact with a friendly Portal Marker.  So if it starts its activation b2b with one, it can go through it.  If during any movement effect (via moving the portal marker or the Fireteam, so long as their bases contact) then the unit can go through it.  If the movement effect used was an Order (Advance, Rush) then you don't get to use any more of it after using Dimensional Instability.

That's pretty much exactly why.

Yeah that seems to be the point of the rule but it doesn't really work because you can just start your activation in base contact with a portal, teleport through and give a rush order.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, LexLock said:

Yeah that seems to be the point of the rule but it doesn't really work because you can just start your activation in base contact with a portal, teleport through and give a rush order.

If the unit is starting it’s activation in base contact with a portal, it seems to me that it came into contact with that portal earlier, and could have been placed then.  And then from that position, you wouldn’t have a problem with the unit activating and moving from a rush order, right?

 

[mattbird]

Further question: 

"you may place its unit in base contact with any other friendly Portal Marker. "

How is "unit" defined here: must all fireteams in a unit touch the portal it's teleporting to, or just 1 fireteam? 

[retnab]

28 minutes ago, mattbird said:

Further question: 

"you may place its unit in base contact with any other friendly Portal Marker. "

How is "unit" defined here: must all fireteams in a unit touch the portal it's teleporting to, or just 1 fireteam? 

The base contact is talking about any Fireteam, the place effect is regarding all Fireteams in the contacting Fireteams' unit (so you can't place just one ECB Fireteam in the squad this way, they all go through regardless of how far apart they are)

[JimO]

After listening to the most recent Coordinated Strike, I was having this exact conversation locally.  Some parts of the rule seem to indicate that the unit must be activating, but others don't.  The parenthetical (or starts in) feels like it means (or starts an activation in).

I hadn't noticed the specific allowance on "The Burning Man Descends", that feels like a pretty good argument against the intent being that a portal moved via "Tears in Reality" into contact with a fireteam triggering the placement.

The "remaining movement that was granted by the Order" clause made us think that movement would have to have been granted by the unit's order.  Can a unit which starts it's activation in base contact with a portal (say via deployment, to avoid other interactions) be given the Focused Effort order and still take the portal movement?

 

[retnab]

Yes, if it starts in base contact with a Portal Marker then it can go through it regardless of the order it takes.

[LexLock]

5 hours ago, retnab said:

Yes, if it starts in base contact with a Portal Marker then it can go through it regardless of the order it takes.

Well that is what the wording says, but is it what Wyrd intended? The whole ability is a sloppy mess right now and given it is the defining ability of 1/4th of the game that seems like a pretty huge oversight, I just want a designer to give a ruling somewhere on how we're supposed to play the ability while we wait for them to properly fix it.

[retnab]

1 minute ago, LexLock said:

Well that is what the wording says, but is it what Wyrd intended? The whole ability is a sloppy mess right now and given it is the defining ability of 1/4th of the game that seems like a pretty huge oversight, I just want a designer to give a ruling somewhere on how we're supposed to play the ability while we wait for them to properly fix it.

There's nothing to fix there.  That is how it works, the wording literally says "comes into (or starts in) base contact with a friendly Portal Marker"

[LexLock]

3 hours ago, retnab said:

There's nothing to fix there.  That is how it works, the wording literally says "comes into (or starts in) base contact with a friendly Portal Marker"

If you look over the whole ability (and other references to portals in the Allegiance) there are parts that seem to be at odds with eachother, further on in the Dimensional Instability wording it mentions not using any remaining movement granted by "the order". Is this a typo? is it supposed to say an order? Or is it referencing something further up in the abilities text that was mistakenly removed before release? On the Burning Man Descends stratagem it includes a clause on the effect to allow friendly fireteams to use the portal if it comes into base contact with them. Is this a mistake? Or does it hint at the way the actual ability is supposed to work.

I don't actually mind which interpretation is eventually settled on, I just want a solid set of rules that I can be confident in using.

[solkan]

14 hours ago, LexLock said:

If you look over the whole ability (and other references to portals in the Allegiance) there are parts that seem to be at odds with eachother, further on in the Dimensional Instability wording it mentions not using any remaining movement granted by "the order". Is this a typo? is it supposed to say an order? Or is it referencing something further up in the abilities text that was mistakenly removed before release? On the Burning Man Descends stratagem it includes a clause on the effect to allow friendly fireteams to use the portal if it comes into base contact with them. Is this a mistake? Or does it hint at the way the actual ability is supposed to work.

I've been working on a rules reference sheet, and I've been discovering some of the various redundant rules in the rulebook.

For instance, the Titan rules get repeated and paraphrased in various places, and the Resolve Action rules explain when generated Actions are resolved twice in three paragraphs for Resolve Action and then repeated in the Trigger rules.

There are some cards like triggers with "gain an additional Reinforcement Token" when the action previously gave the same token; while Prince Unathi's Glory side trigger 'They'll be There Soon" trigger doesn't in the same situation (it says "gains a Reinforcement Token" twice).  Neither card is in error, they're just equivalent phrases.

 

[Jinn]

On 11/28/2018 at 7:48 AM, solkan said:

If you start in base contact with the marker, you can be placed by the portal, but the last sentence prohibits the models from using any of the movement granted by the unit’s Order.  It doesn’t matter that you haven’t chosen an order yet.

 

On 11/28/2018 at 7:48 AM, solkan said:

"Fireteams that move in this way may not use any remaining movement that was granted by the Order, and cannot use the Dimensional Instability rule again during this Activation."

The wording here is very confusing if that is what it is intended to mean. If it applies to an Order that hasn't been given yet then why does it say remaining movement? Movement that may not have even been generated yet can't be considered remaining...

Changing it to:

"Fireteams that move in this way may not use any subsequent movement granted by an Order and cannot use the Dimensional Instability rule again during this Activation."

would be more clear IMO, or: 

"After a fireteam moves in this way it cannot use any movement granted by an Order, and cannot use the Dimensional Instability rule again during this Activation."

At the very least the part of it that refers to "the Order" should be changed somehow, as it doesn't quite make sense.

Also... Wouldn't placing a model during deployment technically allow it to use the portals? This would allow for some nasty rushes on turn 1, so I hope people aren't playing it this way. Could be fun though 

[Synn]

So reading the ability and checking multiple parts of the rule book.  this is how I see it.  As far as portal markers coming into base contact with fire team.  Adeodatos and Doomseekers both have abilities that can move units into base contact with them.  If there is a portal marker close enough that they end up coming into base contact with that as well.  then you may place said unit into base contact with any other portal marker.  this also applies if you move a Stalking Portal or a portal marker (through the use of burning man descends) into base contact with any fire team.  only one fire team needs to be touching the portal marker,  but all fire teams that are part of the squad are placed at the new portal Marker.

 

So this next part is where I'm seeing  the most debate over.  The parts about starting in base contact and remaining movement.  So, If a fire team is not in base contact with a portal marker,  and you issue an order (advance or rush) then use the movement part of that order to move them into base contact with a portal.  You may now place them in b2b with another portal marker.  Any remaining movement that you did not use when you initially moved said fire team, is now gone and they cannot move any further.  Now.  If you look at the rules for activation phase on pg 48 of the rule book.  It says.  1 play stratagems,  2 choose unit (any effects that occur when this unit activates,  resolve now ).  generate tactic tokens (if able too), 3 Give orders.  So,  If the fire team is starting in b2b with a portal when you choose to activate them.  You may resolve the effects of Dimensional Instability and move them to a new portal marker.  Since you have not issued an order yet you cannot lose any remaining movement issued by an order ( since you have not given it yet ).  Now you may give the unit an order,  and they will have their full movement capabilities.  I have seen some people say that as soon as you activate you must issue orders immediately.  On page 49 in the paragraph for "Timing" It says If 2 effects would occur at the same time.  The Acting Player may choose in which order the effects resolve. Dimensional Instability says if you start in b2b you may use it's effect.  The acting player (under the timing rule ) chooses what order that these 2 effects occur in.

[katadder]

10 hours ago, Synn said:

So reading the ability and checking multiple parts of the rule book.  this is how I see it.  As far as portal markers coming into base contact with fire team.  Adeodatos and Doomseekers both have abilities that can move units into base contact with them.  If there is a portal marker close enough that they end up coming into base contact with that as well.  then you may place said unit into base contact with any other portal marker.  this also applies if you move a Stalking Portal or a portal marker (through the use of burning man descends) into base contact with any fire team.  only one fire team needs to be touching the portal marker,  but all fire teams that are part of the squad are placed at the new portal Marker.

 

So this next part is where I'm seeing  the most debate over.  The parts about starting in base contact and remaining movement.  So, If a fire team is not in base contact with a portal marker,  and you issue an order (advance or rush) then use the movement part of that order to move them into base contact with a portal.  You may now place them in b2b with another portal marker.  Any remaining movement that you did not use when you initially moved said fire team, is now gone and they cannot move any further.  Now.  If you look at the rules for activation phase on pg 48 of the rule book.  It says.  1 play stratagems,  2 choose unit (any effects that occur when this unit activates,  resolve now ).  generate tactic tokens (if able too), 3 Give orders.  So,  If the fire team is starting in b2b with a portal when you choose to activate them.  You may resolve the effects of Dimensional Instability and move them to a new portal marker.  Since you have not issued an order yet you cannot lose any remaining movement issued by an order ( since you have not given it yet ).  Now you may give the unit an order,  and they will have their full movement capabilities.  I have seen some people say that as soon as you activate you must issue orders immediately.  On page 49 in the paragraph for "Timing" It says If 2 effects would occur at the same time.  The Acting Player may choose in which order the effects resolve. Dimensional Instability says if you start in b2b you may use it's effect.  The acting player (under the timing rule ) chooses what order that these 2 effects occur in.

I really hope they FAQ this soon but I believe it is meant to say if you start you movement in base to base, not if you start your activation.
being able to pop up halfway across the board and then issue orders is over the top and not good for the game as it takes away all downsides of this mobility and you will just have units lining up at a portal behind a forest to jump through and ambush the enemy without them being able to do a thing about it.

if this is how all the COTBM players have been playing it then its no wonder they seem to be smashing everyone