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Anung Un Rama

Carrion Effigy- no love?

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It has a bunch of problems, sadly. Its master condition is mediocre, requiring additional resources, its unique ability is very situational, its melee attack is bad, probably even for a 4ss model. 

In short, raw stats aside, it has nothing going for it, which makes it one of the worse Effigies (you get to have one of the best Emissaries though, so it's not all bad).

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It's mostly that the condition for the leader isn't great and ressers have other models for scheming which is usually what effigies do apart from putting their condition on the leader. I wouldn't say it has a worse attack than other effigies really. The brutal effigy is a very popular guild/Collodi model because the condition it deals out is awesome and it can scheme, no one ever taked it for thr attack action.

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It has good stats, as do they all, but unless you want a durable model that doesn't really support the rest of your crew, you can often find things like Canine remains in faction that can do similar basic things, with chances to do other things.

In short, its not bad to use, but you are more likely to want to try other things because ressers seem to create more crew interlinking than most other factions.

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It's just that durability alone is often no good when not coupled with a useful effect, because the opponent can simply choose to ignore it, plus it can even become a liability with something like Take Prisoner in the pool. 

The best Effigies (Brutal, Arcane) provide incredible utility for their respective factions. Thus they become targets that the opponent needs to deal with, but then they require more resources than they're worth. 

@Ludvig It's a fair statement, but having that sort of attack action means that your AP will not go to waste as often. The Shadow Effigies ml stat of 7 is one of the bigger selling points I feel, as it makes it a good model to lock a model somewhere. Ml 5 1/1/2 is very poor, and the trigger is rather conditional, although it can be good. 

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@DonCheadle

If the carrion and brutal effigies had swapped conditions I'm pretty sure the brutal effigy wouldn't be very highly regarded. Its utility as a schemer made it an auto-include back when guild basically had the choice of hounds or the effigy because only books 1 and 2 were available. Watchers were also nice but many players were hamstrung by there only existing a single sculpt only available in Hoffman's box. As someone playing Lucius a lot the effigy hasn't been an auto-include for me since Lucius rarely attacks stuff himself, it's just that many guild masters mesh well with the condition. If the carrion effigy gave you a free card every time you summoned a model I don't think anyone would take issue with the attack on the card, the condition it grants is the single most important reason that it isn't being brought into lists.

As someone who both plays and faces guild a lot I'd say the effigy is a pretty low priority to me. In a Collodi list it might sometimes be necessary because the buff becomes insane there but in guild I generally find it more efficient to go straight for the master. The effigy often spends several turns simply doing nothing or moving around to get the condition on the master. Once melee fights are locked it's usually stupid to risk firing into them, I can't tell you how many times me and my buddies have hit our own models or had to cheat away our own effigy shots. It also can't hold an opponent in engagement so they can go near it for protection against :ToS-Range: attacks while at the same time making it unable to attack but next turn they can just walk out again and keep scheming since it doesn't have a :ToS-Melee: attack. It also has sh 4. I would rather have the attack of the carrion on my brutal if I got a choice.

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You're right, definitely depends on which Models people bring. 

I was mostly facing masters such as Lady J and Perdita, where the condition is clutch (as you've said). I feel like the better spread of the Effigy can sometimes come in handy, 1/1/2 is just very low, disengaging strikes is a good point however, but au think I'd rather have the ranged attack still. The Brutal Effigy drops a scheme marker when killed, which further disincentivizes it. 

Besides, you've ignored/chosen not to comment on my statement on the Shadow Effigy, where I feel like the attack is an integral part of an otherwise subpar model. 

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14 minutes ago, DonCheadle said:

You're right, definitely depends on which Models people bring. 

I was mostly facing masters such as Lady J and Perdita, where the condition is clutch (as you've said). I feel like the better spread of the Effigy can sometimes come in handy, 1/1/2 is just very low, disengaging strikes is a good point however, but au think I'd rather have the ranged attack still. The Brutal Effigy drops a scheme marker when killed, which further disincentivizes it. 

If you can bop Francisco you can usually take out Perdita in a couple of attacks so the condition doesn't have time to kick in. Spending those ap on the effigy would probably be hurting your game longterm since it will probably mean at least an extra turn of Perdita going nuts. The new Lady Justice often outruns her effigy when I face her, I just give her juicy targets and sherish the bloodbath. :D 

Quote

Besides, you've ignored/chosen not to comment on my statement on the Shadow Effigy, where I feel like the attack is an integral part of an otherwise subpar model. 

I don't think I've ever faced it so I completely of forgot to respond to that. I would rather have the ml 7 since you're usually scoring weak damage anyway. That being said I've actually seen the brutal effigy hilariously score moderate on a negative damage flip against friendlies in two of the three last games I played so it does happen. Once when I and once when my opponent tried a hail-mary into engagement to get the last wound on an opponent but ended up moderating our friendly model. I've also successfully used the slow trigger a few times (which the carrion has on an even better stat but unfortunately on the faction's preferred suit instead of an off suit which I think is pretty bad design). I would say the shadow emissary has extremely good tactical actions as well so the whole package is just better than the carrion. That defensive condition in a Collodi list is pretty rude, thankfully no one plays thunders around here anymore. The carrion lost immunity bubble is rather interesting though, was that changed or was it always like that? I was remembering it as a condition.

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Hahaha, that's great. 

I've never actually taken my Shadow Effigy, though I do own it. It's mostly the problem of a Ten Thunder Brother usually being better, and while the tactical sounds great, it needs a ten to go off... 

Defensive Collodi could definitely work, but whether or not that's worth giving up the Brutal buff for is another matter. 

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Carrion Effigy can sometimes be useful fo McMourning because Douglas don't usualy need all those corpses he creates. However it's true only when McMourning goes heavy melee and it's not the best way to use this Master nowadays...

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I faced a Seamus list with several frozen hearted models, and the aura was pretty good for paralyzing me. But you never know when you will need it because there aren't that many immunities out there.

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I bought him, painted him and have never used him in a Resser crew. Think i summoned him once when playing Collodi. The trouble is there is always a better choice in Ressers for the cost. I'm hoping 3e will bring some of these unused models back into circulation

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On 10/5/2018 at 2:07 PM, Athiko said:

I bought him, painted him and have never used him in a Resser crew. Think i summoned him once when playing Collodi. The trouble is there is always a better choice in Ressers for the cost. I'm hoping 3e will bring some of these unused models back into circulation

Changing up what people would want to buy is probably part of the goal with any edition change so I would assume the nevertakes get a major redesign to make them appealing. If everything stayed the same there wouldn't be much of a point and since an edition change always risks alienating players you want a good payout after the change.

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That's a rather cynical way to look at things, although there is very likely some degree of truth to it.

I have faith that Wyrd trusts a good game to sell itself, rather than relying on cheap tricks. That being said, their sales team's tactics are impressive, what with dual factions and summoning.

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I guess I am quite cynical in my expectations on people. I set pretty low expectations on how others are supposed to behave but I love it when I'm proven wrong and don't take offense at the thought of others doing what is good for them. I think 

I think people getting into games design are motivated by an honest ambition to make good games. I think the economic reality is also that their livelyhood depends on selling minis while the rules design costs a significant amount in work hours that ends up being a net loss. That means the rules are (to some extent at least) there to sell minis. Another aim of an edition change would be to shake it up so people don't get bored, if the same models end up autopicks I think the new edition would be considered a failure and I think gamers are prone to declaring autopicks so if I was designing games myself I would err on the side of too good rather than too bad with models who was to a large extent declared useless last edition. 

I'm still psyched for the next edition, I have a large collection of models so I'll enjoy figuring out which work well together after the change.

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2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I think people getting into games design are motivated by an honest ambition to make good games. I think the economic reality is also that their livelyhood depends on selling minis while the rules design costs a significant amount in work hours that ends up being a net loss. That means the rules are (to some extent at least) there to sell minis. Another aim of an edition change would be to shake it up so people don't get bored, if the same models end up autopicks I think the new edition would be considered a failure and I think gamers are prone to declaring autopicks so if I was designing games myself I would err on the side of too good rather than too bad with models who was to a large extent declared useless last edition. 

The goal is to make every model good because every model should be good. Dead options don't bring anything to a game, and it sucks to pick up a really cool model only to learn that they're just not worth putting on the table (or worse, an active hindrance to winning).

If a model is an "autopick," it doesn't get attention to "shake things up," it gets attention because it's probably too good at what it does, which is why it gets added to lists without any sort of thought or evaluation. I think there's a certain amount of room for that sort of thing - taking Sebastian with McMourning, for example - but when that spills over to the entire faction - when every Resurrectionist list includes Sebastian because he's just the best model, regardless of Crew or Strategy or Scheme - that's because Sebastian is just too good at what he does for his price.

I would be perfectly happy if someone who ran a Lady Justice Crew ended up bringing the same models to their M3E games as their M2E games. My goal isn't to shake things up and force them to change, it's to ensure that those models are more streamlined, easier to understand, and still providing plenty of options and tactical depth.

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Unrelated, but Mason, I heard you're a weaboo (which isn't an inherently bad thing, but poses it's own set of risks). Please use actual historical reference and not anime fantasy for Ten Thunder inspiration. 

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@Mason Thanks again for engaging so much lately, it really feels great! Just to clarify I wasn't saying that you have an interest in making models crap but I can see how my post seemed a bit too cynical in retrospect. What I was getting it at is that I think certain miniature gamers want to find the OP/UP models and since there are so many factors where you can compare models I think pretty much no matter how flatly you manage to balance something those kinds of statements will float around. The balancing process is also a really tight rope to walk so it's sometimes hard to tell what is player perception and what is an actually overpowered model. It only takes a few vocal players declaring something OP for that perception to spread.

In the guild part of the forums we have had a group of players who purposefully picked the underappreciated models and tried to stay away from the autopicks. I found that I really didn't need Francisco for example despite having the feeling that he was probably objectively above the power curve for his cost (before the last winter errata which gave him a lot more competition). Dropping the hunt for the "objectively best" models renewed my love of the game and is partly the reason why I opted out of applying to the m3e beta.

I'll tone down the cynicism a bit, I have a good feeling about m3e from what you've revealed so far.

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18 hours ago, DonCheadle said:

Unrelated, but Mason, I heard you're a weaboo (which isn't an inherently bad thing, but poses it's own set of risks). Please use actual historical reference and not anime fantasy for Ten Thunder inspiration. 

Not really. I played the L5R CCG for a long while and was a rules team member / alpha playtester for the L5R RPG for a number of years, so I learned a fair amount about Asian culture over those years. I'm not obsessed with it, though, just relatively informed.  :)

 

18 hours ago, Ludvig said:

@Mason Thanks again for engaging so much lately, it really feels great! Just to clarify I wasn't saying that you have an interest in making models crap but I can see how my post seemed a bit too cynical in retrospect.

I didn't take it that way! It seemed like a good spot to jump in and clarify some things.

 

18 hours ago, Ludvig said:

What I was getting it at is that I think certain miniature gamers want to find the OP/UP models and since there are so many factors where you can compare models I think pretty much no matter how flatly you manage to balance something those kinds of statements will float around. The balancing process is also a really tight rope to walk so it's sometimes hard to tell what is player perception and what is an actually overpowered model. It only takes a few vocal players declaring something OP for that perception to spread.

I don't disagree!

There's a tendency in playtest towards something I call "Arcanist Ratchet," which happens in every faction and every miniatures game. It just tends to happen to Arcanists first, since they usually have the most (or at least, most active) players.

Basically, someone says that all the Arcanist masters are fine, except for Rasputina, who could use a little boost. Rasputina gets a boost, and then someone says that she's great, but now Colette seems a bit underpowered and probably needs a boost. She gets a little boost, and everyone cheers... but also points out that now Kaeris needs a little love. And that cycle just keeps repeating itself as the goal post gets ratcheted ever-upwards.

 

18 hours ago, Ludvig said:

In the guild part of the forums we have had a group of players who purposefully picked the underappreciated models and tried to stay away from the autopicks. I found that I really didn't need Francisco for example despite having the feeling that he was probably objectively above the power curve for his cost (before the last winter errata which gave him a lot more competition). Dropping the hunt for the "objectively best" models renewed my love of the game and is partly the reason why I opted out of applying to the m3e beta.

I think that the Keyword system will go a long ways towards softening "objective best" picks. For instance, to use a random model as an example, the Blessed of December might be amazing for Rasputina at 7ss, but for other Masters who have to pay 8ss, she's less impressive and doesn't quite click with everything their Crew is doing, so there's less of an incentive to just auto-add her to lists. Now, if you want whatever the Blessed of December is doing because it's something you otherwise don't get in your Crew, then that could still be a good hire, but I think we'll have less faction-wide auto-hire models like Francisco in M3E.

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Right. I have not played L5R, only looked at the lore introduction, but from what I gather, it's loosely (note: loosely, about as much as GoT could be said to be based on medieval Europe) on Japan.

But the Three Kingdoms encompass so much more than Japan, and I say the following as a person of direct Japanese descent - to neglect this diversity in history and cultures would not only be ignorant, but also wasteful. There's a rich pool to draw from, and Wyrd has certainly shown to be capable of going deep. The Penangalan is a wonderful reference.

Now to be fair, I am not accusing you of being ignorant. I only heard a rumour, and its verity is unknown to me. What I have noticed is a trend in haphazard naming of characters, with Asian sounding names being willfully chucked together without much thought, which makes me wonder if Wyrd staff were able to name which culture they stem from if asked to do so. This trend continues with the Obsidian Gate and the new master, whose name is Japanese, yet she is the headmistress of an establishment with a Chinese name.

Everything considered, I have great faith in Wyrd, and by extension, in you. You've made a beautiful game, and while it may not have my favourite lore of all time, it nonetheless has a pretty damn interesting premise. Just please, do your research properly. Appreciation musn't become appropriation.

 

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38 minutes ago, DonCheadle said:

Now to be fair, I am not accusing you of being ignorant. I only heard a rumour, and its verity is unknown to me. What I have noticed is a trend in haphazard naming of characters, with Asian sounding names being willfully chucked together without much thought, which makes me wonder if Wyrd staff were able to name which culture they stem from if asked to do so. This trend continues with the Obsidian Gate and the new master, whose name is Japanese, yet she is the headmistress of an establishment with a Chinese name.

So here's the thing!

The Three Kingdoms are a loose affiliation of Japan, China, and Vietnam that all more or less worth together as a unified front.

The Little Kingdom - the neighborhood in Malifaux City that is primarily home to natives of the Three Kingdoms - is similarly unified, with Japanese, Chinese, and Vietnamese buildings and people living right next to each other.

The Ten Thunders, meanwhile, are a criminal syndicate run entirely by the Katanaka family, which is, itself, a Japanese family. They more or less run the Little Kingdom, so they have holdings that belong to people hailing from all three nations of the Three Kingdoms (as well as holdings that are distinctly Western, such as the Honeypot casino, which is run by a southern American). The Qi and Gong has a Chinese name, sure, but it's one of the oldest and most important holdings of the Ten Thunders, right next to the Katanaka Trading House. When the proprietor of the Qi and Gong was no longer able to perform their duties, the Ten Thunders put someone they trust in control of it. That person ended up being someone the Japanese Katanaka family trusted, a Japanese woman (not too much of a stretch, that).

So what this comes down to is basically, the Ten Thunders don't believe that someone has to be Chinese in order to run a brothel with a Chinese name.

As for the Obsidian Gate, the Japanese names used in that adventure were actual Japanese names, and a lot of research was done to ensure that Japan was portrayed in a manner befitting the time period, so I'm not sure what your complaint is about that adventure in particular.

 

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