M3E Guild Prediction(read: Wish)

[Rufess]

With the beta is around the corner within only few days, I want to know how everyone is expecting Guild in M3E.

 

Lady Justice and Guild Marshals:

• The most significant change I have noticed in the preview is that Acrobatic Assault has became a Bonus(0AP) action. Assume that Lady J has same Wk value of now, the Acrobatic Assault then will be a better Charge action, hence I do not think it will retain the Df bonus.
• Since Acrobatic Assault is now a Bonus which may compete with Juggernaut, so the healing may change from action to ability. The thematic ability gives us some hints: heal when kill.  

• [SPOILER]I did not follow the story but heard that the Judge might not show up in M3E. So maybe the Jury will become Lady's new henchman in crew box.[SPOILER]

• Death Marshal has more threat in M3E due to increased threat range(Walk + Charge). Hopefully they are more durable as well since over all damage is tuned down.

Nellie and Reporters:

• Seems like a bit cuddled. Nellie can no longer give out fast directly. Instead she has to debuff enemy with her new Scandal Tokens first. That means Nellie will be more close to enemy, which I think is somehow reasonable for a journalist.
• The push attack has been cuddled as well. It became a friendly-only action and cannot push enemy around any more, and it is now toward a enemy scheme marker instead of any direction. However the pushing is now combined with fast-giving action, so it is 1 AP less than now.
• With the above changes I think Nellie is now more focus on debuff. Maybe some aura like "Enemy model with a Scandal Token have to use their first action to place a scheme marker(pseudo slow and set up for pushing)". I think it is a good direct because her fast-giving was a bit duplicated (arguable) with Lucius's AP Manipulation role.
• Because of the keyword hiring, Allison may now have synergy with reporters instead of guardsman now.

Lucius and his new followers:

• With Dashel was promoted to master, Lucius maybe more focus on the law division in Guild(think of the False Witnesses). Maybe the Jury will receive a second keyword to work for Lucius.
• Lucius retains his AP Manipulation according to the preview, and in the meantime, also gains Card Manipulation via the thematic ability. Hope he keeps his Deep Pocket upgrade.
• Since the keyword hiring mechanism, there are less valuable minions (Monster Hunter and Thrall are still great with +1ss though) around so Lucius may has his minion limitation being removed.

Dashel and Guardsmen:

• Guild finally has a full summoner. He can summon Guardsman into scheme marker according to the preview.
• With the new Charge action Mounted Guards should have new ability. Hope they can carry other friendly model when moving just like Kentauroi.
• Austringer's Deliver Orders action has to be changed as well due to the rid of (2) action. It would be too much if it becomes a (1) action on a minion model. So the safest bet is that push or take interact action on player's choice. 
• Guardsmen division always lack of beatstick. I think Executioners can make good fit in both fluffs aspect and rules aspect.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Rufess

[zurelol]

Never understood why Executioner doesn't have keyword 😧 Hope they get Guardsmans, and I hope Lucius still get access to mimic, I bought yesterday Vogel, Tannen and Grave XD

[Adran]

1 hour ago, zurelol said:

Never understood why Executioner doesn't have keyword 😧 Hope they get Guardsmans, and I hope Lucius still get access to mimic, I bought yesterday Vogel, Tannen and Grave XD

Back in the day (first ed) Executioners were part of the witch hunters. But I can imagine they were thought of as too durable for Disrupt magic in M2E.

From a story viewpoint I would expect Lucius to have access to Vogel somehow. And he is still dual faction, so at least as a neverborn he could probably hire Graves and Tannen. No idea if they are going to match his new keywords, there certainly isn't any story linking them that I know of.  

[Mason]

1 hour ago, zurelol said:

Never understood why Executioner doesn't have keyword 😧 Hope they get Guardsmans, and I hope Lucius still get access to mimic, I bought yesterday Vogel, Tannen and Grave XD

The fluff from Above the Law spells out pretty clearly where Executioners are going to wind up. ^__^

[Ludvig]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

Back in the day (first ed) Executioners were part of the witch hunters. But I can imagine they were thought of as too durable for Disrupt magic in M2E.

From a story viewpoint I would expect Lucius to have access to Vogel somehow. And he is still dual faction, so at least as a neverborn he could probably hire Graves and Tannen. No idea if they are going to match his new keywords, there certainly isn't any story linking them that I know of.  

There is a story where Graves and Tannen do some dirty work for Lucius but a single story is hardly a solid connection.

It could go either way since they have a bunch of hiring keywords and that is supposed to be rarer from now on. They are certainly Darkened first and foremost and if Lynch is leaving nvb for tt I could see those two following him. Would be awesome if they kept mimic though, I often run them with Lucius and there are hardly any "big" mimic models apart from those two.

[Regelridderen]

10 hours ago, Ludvig said:

There is a story where Graves and Tannen do some dirty work for Lucius but a single story is hardly a solid connection.

It could go either way since they have a bunch of hiring keywords and that is supposed to be rarer from now on. They are certainly Darkened first and foremost and if Lynch is leaving nvb for tt I could see those two following him. Would be awesome if they kept mimic though, I often run them with Lucius and there are hardly any "big" mimic models apart from those two.

With their latest Alt. Models, I’d wager, that they’ll stat very much with the neverborn too.

[Ludvig]

Must admit I forgot about the alts. Nico did get an alt less than a year ago though...

[Parker Barrows]

11 hours ago, zurelol said:

Never understood why Executioner doesn't have keyword 😧 Hope they get Guardsmans, and I hope Lucius still get access to mimic, I bought yesterday Vogel, Tannen and Grave XD

I think they might go to Lucius. Executioner's are a part of the law, especially since Lucius will likely lose the Thralls to Sonia.

This is just theorizing. I'll get Above the Law tomorrow.

I also think he might get the Guild Investigators in his break-up with Dashel. Investigators who  plant evidence and occasionally investigate things do seem like something that might stay under the under-handed Elite Division Lucius leads.

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Must admit I forgot about the alts. Nico did get an alt less than a year ago though...

To be fair, his alt was a whole new character. It was a sign really.

9 hours ago, Mason said:

The fluff from Above the Law spells out pretty clearly where Executioners are going to wind up. ^__^

I guess I'll find out tomorrow, but is there any fluff about Cornelius in Above the Law?

My thought:

Cornelius
- I think he'll get Mounted Guards, Guild Pathfinders, Clockwork Traps, and Guild Hounds.
- Now that I'm writing this, maybe he'll get Executioners since they're supposed to be about traveling around fulfilling Guild "justice." Still think Lucius is more likely, but I could see it.
- The standards are covered already. Lady Justice is melee. Sonia is magic. Perdita is shooting. Hoffman is the buffer/support. Lucius is control. Nellie is a scheme master. Dashel is the summoner. So, what is Cornelius? With his theme and crew abilities, I think he will focus on movement manipulation. His crew has a larger deployment. His units will probably be fast (Mounted Guard, Guild Hounds) and/or be able limit enemy movement at least without cost (dust clouds, severe terrain, and I think Guild Pathfinders and Clockwork Traps will fit perfectly with that). I hope I'm right. Because that sounds awesome (surprise, surprise, I would come up with an idea I personally find awesome).

[Da Git]

1 hour ago, Parker Barrows said:

I think they might go to Lucius. Executioner's are a part of the law, especially since Lucius will likely lose the Thralls to Sonia.

This is just theorizing. I'll get Above the Law tomorrow.

I also think he might get the Guild Investigators in his break-up with Dashel. Investigators who  plant evidence and occasionally investigate things do seem like something that might stay under the under-handed Elite Division Lucius leads.

I'd like to see Lucius focus more on the Elite Division, so definitely think Investigators fit that under umbrella alongside Guild Lawyers.  Executioners also fit under there too, but they might be too overt.  I'd like him to be more behind the scenes manipulative (the SPECTRE of Malifaux if you will), with his hidden snipers, investigators, Lawyers, we might see some new secret operative/assassin-type models (again, think of the whole host of SPECTRE agents we could include in the game... poison knife shoes!).

1 hour ago, Parker Barrows said:

I guess I'll find out tomorrow, but is there any fluff about Cornelius in Above the Law?

My thought:

Cornelius
- I think he'll get Mounted Guards, Guild Pathfinders, Clockwork Traps, and Guild Hounds.
- Now that I'm writing this, maybe he'll get Executioners since they're supposed to be about traveling around fulfilling Guild "justice." Still think Lucius is more likely, but I could see it.
- The standards are covered already. Lady Justice is melee. Sonia is magic. Perdita is shooting. Hoffman is the buffer/support. Lucius is control. Nellie is a scheme master. Dashel is the summoner. So, what is Cornelius? With his theme and crew abilities, I think he will focus on movement manipulation. His crew has a larger deployment. His units will probably be fast (Mounted Guard, Guild Hounds) and/or be able limit enemy movement at least without cost (dust clouds, severe terrain, and I think Guild Pathfinders and Clockwork Traps will fit perfectly with that). I hope I'm right. Because that sounds awesome (surprise, surprise, I would come up with an idea I personally find awesome).

That sounds like a great list and thoughts of what he might be like.  I'd also add Austringers to that list.  Much like the Guild Pathfiner, they've always seemed like the type to spend most of their time away from the city.

[Parker Barrows]

46 minutes ago, Da Git said:

That sounds like a great list and thoughts of what he might be like.  I'd also add Austringers to that list.  Much like the Guild Pathfiner, they've always seemed like the type to spend most of their time away from the city.

Definitely. I was thinking there was one more, but couldn't think of who it is. Somehow, I forgot about the Austringers. They would definitely make sense. Especially since ME2 where they kinda separated from Lucius (one of the most fun Chronicles story with hidden messages within hidden messages). It would make sense they would leap at the chance to get out of Lucius's and his former lackey's divisions. That they fit in with Cornelius's theme just makes it even better.

[KingJocko]

Re-reading the Monday Preview of the Executioner pursuit for Above the Law kind of spells it out:

Quote

Originally, Executioners were bodyguards and enforcers that traveled alongside the Guild's circuit judges as they made the rounds between the northern Contract Towns, settling disputes and bringing the Guild's law to the frontier. When the M&SU came into power, the willingness of Northerners to submit to Guild justice dwindled, and eventually, the circuit judges simply stopped leaving the city. The Executioners were folded into the ranks of the Guild Guard, where they have become powerful tools of intimidation and carnage.

So unless what's in Above the Law is radically different from this they'll most likely end up with the Guardsman tag with a possibility of also running body guard for some of Lucius's lawyer types.

[longfanz]

Well, some models could stay as "versatile" and executioners could be one of those. In the last Wyrd Chronicles there is an article about starting gremlins and they recommend models that (for now) will be part of each master subset, then they have some that are recommended for more than one of them (Burt, Gracie, McTavish...). Maybe model's that don't fit quite well will be versatile or available for multiple masters...

[Mortarion]

I've been thinking about keywords, and how they will be spread out between the masters. If the look at the M2E keywords, they are as follows:

Guardsman: Captain Dashel (He), Master Queeg (He), Guild sergeant (En), Guild austringer (Mi), Guild Guard (Mi), Guild hound (Mi), Guild investigator (Mi), Guild pathfinder (Mi), Guild rifleman (Mi), Mounted guard (Mi), Warden (Mi)
Total: 11 (0+2+1+8) Dashel will become a Master though...

Witch hunter: Sonnia Criid (Ma), Samael Hopkins (He), Dr Grimwell (He), Nurse Heartsbane (En), Witchling handler (En), Witchling stalker (Mi), Witchling thrall (Mi), Orderly (Mi), Thalarian Queller (Mi)
Total: 9 (1+2+2+4)

Guild Marshal: Lady Justice (Ma), The Judge (He), The Jury (He), The Lone marshal (En), Exorcist (En), Domador de Cadáveres (En), Death marshal recruiter (En), Death Marshal (Mi)
Total: 8 (1+2+4+1) 

Journalist: Nellie Cochrane (Ma), Phiona Gage (He), Allison Dade (He), Field reporter (Mi)
Total: 4 (1+2+0+1)

Family: Perdita Ortega (Ma), Francisco Ortega (He), Niño Ortega (En), Papa Loco (En), Santiago Ortega (En), Abuela Ortega (En), Pistoliero de Latigo (Mi), Monster hunter (Mi)
Total: 8 (1+1+4+2)

Mimic: Lucius (Ma), Guild lawyer (Mi)
Total: 2 (1+0+0+1)

I have ignored any totems (since they belong to the master in question) and any dual faction masters leaving the Guild (since I guess their thematic models will leave with their master). There are also some models which do not currently have any keyword linking them to a master, such as Executioners, Sanctioned spellcasters, most Guild constructs and the ones confirmed to become versatile (rider, effigy, emissary).

Looking at this, I have concluded the following wild speculations:
- Guardsmen will likely be divided between Dashel and Cornelius. Some of them might get dual keywords perhaps. Cornelius may also get some new models to help establish his identity as anything other then "That guy who stole Dashels models".
- Witch hunters will keep their stuff. Possible exception for the medical staff which never really seemed witch hunter to begin with. Otherwise they will end up with the largerst thematic crew.
- Guild marshals. Propably not too much change. The most likely thing to happen will be The Judge going to "Dead man's hand", since he is dead. On the other hand, a different person may take on the title of "The Judge", in the same way as "The Governor-General" is a not the same person now as it was at the beginning of M2E. 
- Journalists will most likely not lose any models, but will hopefully get some new.
- Family. Unless they kill someone in the background I don't think much is happening here.
- Mimics: Lucius may get another keyword, such as Elite division. But he might keep Mimic as well, and be able to hire out of faction models. Mimics have been his thing for a long time, and it is a pretty controlled theme in terms of game design. It will be interesting to see what the elite division consists of. I am hoping for dirty tricks such as investigator rather then elite fighting.
- The Guild constructs will likely get some kind of Keyword to tie them to Hoffman. Currently Hoffman and Ryle has the M&SU Keyword, but that would make no sense for the Guild constructs.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Mortarion
The name of the guard keyword is "Guardsman".

[Da Git]

11 minutes ago, Mortarion said:

- Mimics: Lucius may get another keyword, such as Elite division. But he might keep Mimic as well, and be able to hire out of faction models. Mimics have been his thing for a long time, and it is a pretty controlled theme in terms of game design. It will be interesting to see what the elite division consists of. I am hoping for dirty tricks such as investigator rather then elite fighting.

I agree 100% on this. I'm really hoping that Lucius is the Guild's evil twin of the CIA!  Mimics are really Neverborn, and despite being Duel, Lucius is more Guild in his toys and none of the Guild stuff are actually Mimics (besides Lucius himself and The Scribe). So I think he'll go back to his old Elite Division keyword from 1.5. So yeah, things like the investigators, Lawyers and the like.  I think there will have to be some new models coming out as we've seen in the previews.  Nellie also requires some new toys too.

From the Previews, we've seen Undercover Agents, Newsies, Hucksters & False Witnesses.  Hucksters don't sound very Guild, more like Outcasts, but I think the rest belong to Guild.  Undercover agents sound like they could be Elite Division and Newsies & False Witnesses go with Nellie (or maybe FW combine with Investigators in Elite?).

Either way I'm hoping it's SPECTRE in Malifaux!

[Dirach]

I think the prediction is sensible, but I think there will be more models with two or more key words. Queeg and the Wardens might fit the "legal" theme of Lucius, and the wardens might also fit Hoffman. I guess both Cornelius and Dashel could use guardsmen. And don´t forget the mimics. I think we will see many models borrowed from other factions. I would not be surprised to see the most of the mimics with Lucius. 

[Mortarion]

2 hours ago, Dirach said:

I think the prediction is sensible, but I think there will be more models with two or more key words. Queeg and the Wardens might fit the "legal" theme of Lucius, and the wardens might also fit Hoffman. I guess both Cornelius and Dashel could use guardsmen. And don´t forget the mimics. I think we will see many models borrowed from other factions. I would not be surprised to see the most of the mimics with Lucius. 

I am hoping for this as well. And it would make sense for Wyrd from a financial standpoint. If a model is only cost-efficient for one master, fewer players will buy it.

[Mason]

Most models only have one Keyword, and nothing has more than two Keywords.

[Dirach]

4 hours ago, Mason said:

Most models only have one Keyword, and nothing has more than two Keywords.

Yes, most models have one Keyword but we don´t know if it "still will still be" the chase in 3rd edition. Earlier you said earlier when asked "Mister @Mason, can a model have multiple Keywords?😃🙂": (in 3rd edition) you answered:

On 7/30/2018 at 3:27 AM, Mason said:

Absolutely, though it doesn't happen all that often.

 This answer led me to think that two keywords will be more common but still rare in 3rd. I will not know until release off course. I´m quite sure using the current keywords will give us a rough idea on what to expect, but I´m also quite sure this is not the whole story. I cannot see how Nellie would work with the current journalist pool.  Of course there are options others than keywords. If Hoffmans theme is "Archanist and guild constructs" wardens could both be hired in Hoffman and Lucius crews if the Warden keyword fit the Lucius theme even if the Warden just got one keyword (But in this chase it would give Hoffman an enormous pool compared to others like Nelly if "Journalists" are her only option.) 

An other way is to have many "keywords" tied to the masters "Theme". Nellie could be "journalists" and "Guild mercenaries" (I know mercenaries are gone as we know them, but maybe they come in other forms?) Lucius could get "Mimics" "and "Elite division"

 

[Mason]

20 minutes ago, Dirach said:

An other way is to have many "keywords" tied to the masters "Theme". Nellie could be "journalists" and "Guild mercenaries" (I know mercenaries are gone as we know them, but maybe they come in other forms?) Lucius could get "Mimics" "and "Elite division"

One Keyword per Master. 

Though some Henchman have two Keyword and lend themselves to some odd hiring pools.

[cbtb11235813]

35 minutes ago, Mason said:

One Keyword per Master. 

Though some Henchman have two Keyword and lend themselves to some odd hiring pools.

Maybe an incentive to hire a Henchman as a leader, even in a 50ss game?

[Dirach]

33 minutes ago, cbtb11235813 said:

Maybe an incentive to hire a Henchman as a leader, even in a 50ss game?

Or some henchmen open up the themed pool even when hired by masters?

Maybe we should not write off the wastrels and Sidir just yet? Queeg is currently the only double keyworded henchmen as far as I know. If he still is both "guild guard" and "Black sheep" in 3rd he could open up the "theme" for guild guard masters. 

The Jury could be "Death marshal" and "elite division"

Allison Dade could be "Guild guard" and "journalist" and could open up the Nellie pool. 

All these are sold individually and it makes sense that they are usable in many crews from a "sell more miniatures" point of view.

I guess the chance is bigger for the "included in master boxes" henchmen to be single keyword such as Frank, Phiona and Samuel.

Maybe Ryle will be a key piece to open up archanist constructs?

Exciting times!  

 

[Clockwork_Fish]

I'm wondering what will happen to Nellie's Embedded upgrade.  Will she still have something similar?  Like maybe allow her to hire x number of models and ignore the keyword restrictions?

[Adran]

5 hours ago, Clockwork_Fish said:

I'm wondering what will happen to Nellie's Embedded upgrade.  Will she still have something similar?  Like maybe allow her to hire x number of models and ignore the keyword restrictions?

Since upgrades are lessening, I wouldn't be surprised if it went completely. That said it could work almost exactly as it does now if they want her to have " mercs". Obviously the mercs hiring pool has shrunk to just the Victoria crew...

[Ludvig]

She might get something like no tax on non-theme guild models. They might also want to scrap it since it goes against the shift towards mote restricted hiring. Allowing her to hire from the Viks keyword makes little sense thematically where the old rule represented her being embedded/undercover, not actually hiring mercs.

[Parker Barrows]

According to Above the Law (not including anything that is unchanged from ME2 or entries that don't have models):

Guild Investigator: Elite Forces/Guardsman

Witchling Thrall: Witch Hunter (No Elite Forces)

Executioner: Guardsman

Wokou Raider: Last-Blossom (No Bandit)

Sanitarium Workers: In the lore section, it was mentioned that they are considered Guardsman. No particular reason other than it's easier for Guild accountants to keep them on the same payroll as the Guardsmen that are protecting them and the inmates.

So, those are possible changes we'll be getting.