New to Malifaux, new to Guild, just plan new.. help!

[Monster]

Good afternoon everyone!

So figured I would just through this up, I finally committed to trying some Malifaux after years of taunting and abuse from my gaming club. I pretty much play anything and everything EXCEPT this game lol... Anyways so after a little research and a TON of back and forth I settled on the guild mainly cause they looked easier than the rest of the factions and aesthetically they were pretty sweet.

Be advised I have not even completely read the rule book, not knowing what over 90% of these abilities power are and having not played even a demo game yet this is my first 50 SS crew that I was going to learn with. Please any advice, tips, tricks, tactics etc.. greatly appreciated. Please let me know if it just looks bad or the do's and don'ts of Guild.

Leader: Sonnia

Henchmen: Francisco Ortega and The Judge

Enforces: Witchling Handler and Santiago Ortega

Minions: Witchling Stalker x2

So I have 10 SS left and I assume I'm going to want some of those upgrades, no clue whats good or not. I feel like I saw a must take on Sonnia somewhere but cant find it now. I also read that its good to have a ton of SS on her for spending? If not I was considering and would really like to play either a Monster Hunter, that model looks so sweet. Maybe a 3rd Witchling stalker, or perhaps the Malifaux Child?! 

I'm really struggling with the upgrades particularly so any help here would be SUPER appreciated.

Thanks in advance and please remember I am about as green as they come so I probably won't understand typical short hand, slang or terms that other veteran Malifaux players might so baby steps lol.

 

[thewrathchilde]

if you have not yet bought what you described above the first thing I would recommend is......slow down. 

Look around and find a local group of players or a Henchman that can run a demo game for you. Also read through the rulebook- there are some things that are pretty unique to Malifaux (Fate Deck/card mechanics, +/- flips, cheating) but if you have played other miniature games then a lot of the stuff (models, stats, engagements) should be familiar. Perservere and wade through it; reading the rules will put you miles ahead and make any demo that much easier.

Once you get a demo in I still caution you to slow down. Look through the different crew boxes and find one that appeals to you and start there. The partial list you have above includes portions from 2 x different crew boxes plus a separate small box as well. Take one crew box and play a few games at the points level you can play with that box. Each box is different and most are not going to provide a full crew's soulstones worth of models but they will let you explore the different aspects of the game and decide what you want to focus on before you select additional models. 

I would recommend either Lady Justice's box or Perdita's box as a start. Both are masters which can be played in a pretty straightforward manner that is friendly to a new player but also have the depth to play a much more complex game as your experience expands. Perdita's box also provides multiple models that you will use in a variety of crews and strategies and scheme pools as well. 

If you don't want to start that small scale then buy both of these boxes as your start. With the two of them you can play pull 50 SS games and have a lot of flexibility in how you construct a crew and can allow you to experiment with a wide range of approaches and crew focuses. Once you have gotten a lot of mileage out of these then look at expanding to Nellie and Sonnia to fill things out.

[Monster]

Thanks, any tips on actually running Sonnia and upgrade options and stuff like that? I want to learn with the crew that I'm intending on running for most of my games to start. Minor additions or substitution likes the ones I mentioned.

I'm not worried about find the games, group or demo. Its there when I want it I just literally haven't gotten around to it seeing that I ordered the models 2 days ago and picked up my Rulebook yesterday. I just want to hit the ground running and the upgrades are not exactly clear to me from what I have read and is the easiest way to flex / change the leaders tactics from what I can see.   

 

[Adran]

There isn't a right way to run any of the models, just because something works for me doesn't mean it will work for you, and just because the internet says something doesn't work doesn't mean you can't get good results with it. 

And whilst I would suggest a fairly fixed crew as you learn, I would also say Malifaux is a game where you build your crew after you know the board and the strategy and scheme pool. 

So to start with I would personally suggest not using any upgrades. They add extra things for you to think about and learn. Once you've played a few games and feel comfortable with what Sonnia can do, you might want to try some upgrades. None of them are essential for her. They will change her style, but I suggest knowing her core style before you worry about changing it. 

For your first few games I would add a 3rd witchling stalker and her totem to the list you propose. Largely because you are already learning how to use a stalker. 

Finally to answer you question. Lots of people like her flame wall upgrade. It can help control line of sight and keep areas safe. 

I've seen good use of her reincarnation upgrade to allow stalker summons, but you do really have to play in that style to make it worth while. 

Disrupt magic is useful against some crews. Her new upgrade that gives blasts in melee again requires playing in a certain way to work. 

The other new upgrade that allows chain activation can be helpful if you use 1 model to set up burning and then activate Sonnia before they can clear it. 

I haven't seen any good use of the everburning upgrade, but that not to say there isn't one. 

[Monster]

33 minutes ago, Adran said:

There isn't a right way to run any of the models, just because something works for me doesn't mean it will work for you, and just because the internet says something doesn't work doesn't mean you can't get good results with it. 

And whilst I would suggest a fairly fixed crew as you learn, I would also say Malifaux is a game where you build your crew after you know the board and the strategy and scheme pool. 

So to start with I would personally suggest not using any upgrades. They add extra things for you to think about and learn. Once you've played a few games and feel comfortable with what Sonnia can do, you might want to try some upgrades. None of them are essential for her. They will change her style, but I suggest knowing her core style before you worry about changing it. 

For your first few games I would add a 3rd witchling stalker and her totem to the list you propose. Largely because you are already learning how to use a stalker. 

Finally to answer you question. Lots of people like her flame wall upgrade. It can help control line of sight and keep areas safe. 

I've seen good use of her reincarnation upgrade to allow stalker summons, but you do really have to play in that style to make it worth while. 

Disrupt magic is useful against some crews. Her new upgrade that gives blasts in melee again requires playing in a certain way to work. 

The other new upgrade that allows chain activation can be helpful if you use 1 model to set up burning and then activate Sonnia before they can clear it. 

I haven't seen any good use of the everburning upgrade, but that not to say there isn't one. 

Thanks for the specifics on Sonnia related info there, really appreciate it! 

From a personal opinion level I would have to disagree that there isn't a right way to run models. With just under 25 years of miniature tabletop wargaming experience I can tell you for certain there is a right way to run a model lol. Each model or unit definitely has a key aspect, tactic, strategy associated with it even if that is just being a jack of all trades who is not great at any one thing. A model in every game always plays better when you use its abilities as intended. That's not to say you can't play it HOWEVER you choose, there is definitely tried and true strategies and play styles, especially for older crews / leaders that have already been found to play more consistent than others. So I figure why not ask about what works typically than having to grind out 50 games to figure it out?

I understand that Malifaux offers the strategy and the flexibility of locking in your list after certain key aspects of the mission / game are decided. This is cool but since I have a very specific model list to play from it is easier to ask for specifics, for example how do you like to upgrade Sonnia for X scheme etc. Stuff such as the ability to target and kill your own minion to create fresh new Witchling etc. Little tricks like this that are not intuitive until your 20th game. Just be nice to pick the brains of Guild players especially people who are very comfortable with Sonnia for neat little interactions. 

I understand the game doesn't cater to X list always type mentality I was looking for more of the combo or tactical tips. I mainly just put my list up to show people what I would be working with.

[thewrathchilde]

3 hours ago, Monster said:

Thanks, any tips on actually running Sonnia and upgrade options and stuff like that? I want to learn with the crew that I'm intending on running for most of my games to start. Minor additions or substitution likes the ones I mentioned.

 

Here is a version of how I like to run Sonnia- there are others who run similar lists and one of the more well known tournament players named Duncan (I have never met him and don't know him) runs something similar that he "made famous" with good tournament performances. I don't know specifically what he runs but I am sure you can find it on here with a discussion of tactics. 

My preference is: Sonnia w/Cherufe's Imprint, Counterspell Aura, No More Masks (or Reincarnation), Malifaux Child, Frank w/Hermanos & Wade In, Queeg w/Promises, Papa Loco, Investigator, Queller, and Brutal Effigy. 

 

Sonnia w/Cherufe's Imprint and then some combination of Counterspell Aura, No More Masks, and Reincarnation depending on what I am facing, the strat/scheme pool, and how I intend to play. Imprint gives her (and the Child) Flame Wall so you can isolate sections of the opponents crew, key areas of the board, etc in order to focus on accomplishing the objectives or killing their stuff while preventing other sections of their crew from being able to support. Counterspell is my next mandatory choice unless the opponent isn't likely to have any offensive spells I am worried about. Reincarnation is an option to enable you to summon Stalkers. In some games I have used this successfully and summoned multiple Stalkers in other games I felt my stones/cards were more important for other things. No More Masks is the option if you want to go more Melee aggressive rather than just "nuking from orbit".

The Malifaux Child is the only totem I play with Sonnia if I take a totem with her. He is able to copy one of her casts per turn (at a (-)  value but with a (+) flip) and he is usually my go to Fame Wall caster so she can focus on just torching everyone on the other side of the board. Occasionally he will blast as well if they have a low defense target that he has a good chance of hitting. Likewise he brings a possible heal into the list as well but is primarily there for a cheap activation and Flame Wall caster. 

Frank is there to buff Sonnia and make her more survivable as well as give you another good melee threat after the first turn. There are multiple ways you can outfit him, Wade In and Lead Lined Coat (LLC) make him more survivable but sometimes I take Hermanos De Arms for the extra push (pull) to help Sonnia move around the board so she is blasting with her AP instead of walking. I sometimes will rotate the Judge in for the same thing as he can use "Stand For Justice" to help her move as well. 

Queeg is there to also help push her up the board by whipping her to push her. He also can enable close by models who may not have a (0) action of value to interact as a (0) and drop scheme markers that can trigger the Investigator to allow you to push models around to key places. A lot of times I will put Promises on him to amp up the survivability of Frank and Sonnia even further. You can also put LLC on him as well for additional survivability but I often just save the stones to take Sonnia in with a bigger cache. 

Papa Loco is the next standard choice in this type of list (for me and others) he is there primarily to give Sonnia the (+) flip for damage so she can flip or cheat severe to blast over everything. With all the tricks in the list for movement you can push him around so he can give her the bonus and then keep him away so he doesn't detonate on your own crew if he dies. You can also use him to buff Sonnia and then as a suicide bomber to go in, do damage, and explode....hsi thrown dynamite is no slouch either. 

After that I like the Guild Investigator for anti scheme marker tech, the ability to push your models around and up the board (or theirs out of key places), and an extra card drawn per turn. Sonnia is a card hungry master so anything that gives her more cards or lets her use her AP for attacking instead of walking is a great enabler. His other abilities can be good as well but primarily I take him for the pushes and card.

A more controversial pick is the Thalarian Queller but I think he is essential to a lot of good Guild lists. He is also another card per turn (when someone uses a stone), can enable your other models to more easily deal with armor while Sonnia is blasting everything else, and is more options either offensive or defensive against spells, armor, melee threats etc. In another thread (about the Guild wiki) I wrote a whole page about him exclusively so won't repeat here. 

My last standard pick is the Brutal Effigy- his purpose in life is to buff Sonnia (with his (0) action) to enable her to heal when she inflicts damage and draw more cards when she kills models. He is also a good quality cheap model that can scheme run, drop markers, etc. 

Occasionally I will drop one of the other models to swap in a couple of Guild Guard for additional activations. In the configuration above you have 8 activations which is pretty standard and can spend the first half of the turn buffing Sonnia and prepping to push her forward to nuke everything on the other side of the board. With a ninth activation if you don't need the extra stones (the list above has a cache of 6- her base 3 + 3 left over) or if you make the model which is further allows you to see their maneuver and positioning before you push her forward to blast. Most crews can't handle more than a turn or two of her blasts before there isn't much left for them to use to accomplish the strategies and schemes. If you add Reincarnation instead of No More Masks then if you stone early to set things on fire then you can also dump cards/stones to get Stalkers when you kill for additional activations, damage, etc. 

 

The two warnings I will give is 1. Sonnia and this type of crew often isn't very fun for your opponent, and 2. if you lose her then you are at a serious disadvantage and will struggle. Almost like an alpha strike list Sonnia is often a case of putting a lot of your eggs in one basket and if it gets turned over and cracked it can be hard to recover. 

 

[Monster]

Wow! Thanks for that super in depth write up... EXACTLY what I had hoped to get, amazing insight and really I appreciate you taking the time to put that together. 

At the end where you say she isn't a fun type of crew for my opponent? Is that because she is strong vs certain types of leaders? It just seems like putting myself at a disadvantage would be great for them lol.. I do like the alpha strike nature lists can bring. So this should play right up my alley then to learn. Very unforgiving but when you get it to work can assassinate the target I hope!!

Thanks again! ++

[thewrathchilde]

1 hour ago, Monster said:

Wow! Thanks for that super in depth write up... EXACTLY what I had hoped to get, amazing insight and really I appreciate you taking the time to put that together. 

At the end where you say she isn't a fun type of crew for my opponent? Is that because she is strong vs certain types of leaders? It just seems like putting myself at a disadvantage would be great for them lol.. I do like the alpha strike nature lists can bring. So this should play right up my alley then to learn. Very unforgiving but when you get it to work can assassinate the target I hope!!

Thanks again! ++

I edited my post.... I meant if you lose her you will be at a big disadvantage not use.... this type of list relies a lot on her to crank out the damage. If she dies the things that are there to buff her aren’t as effective. 

 

The part about bout your opponents is- Malifaux is an interactive game that usually relies on you accomplishing objectives (strategy/schemes) to score and win. While kill first, scheme later can be a viable approach to certain strategy/scheme pools it is not as common an approach as in some other miniature games where the alpha strike is king and the game is usually decided first turn. Playing this type of list where (when it goes well) your opponent pretty much doesn’t get to do anything but take their toys off the table can leave a bad taste...... no one had a lot of fun if they are just owned, never get to do anything with their stuff, and basically wasted their time setting up, getting their stuff out, etc. This doesn’t always happen with Sonnia but there are games that can go that way if your opponent doesn’t know how to play against her or if there isn’t enough terrain. 

[Monster]

Ah got ya that makes more sense. Lose her hehe. As for the alpha strike nature of her style or the explosive, pun intended, nature yeah that could be a turn off I guess if you repeatedly beat someone down. Hopefully that’s not the case if anything I probe easy wins for a long time lol.

Lucky for me my gaming club has several hardcore Malifaux players with several custom boards and more of the official and hand made terrain than is necessary! So hopefully if anything that’s one area we got covered.. again pun intended! Thanks again though for all your insights, can’t wait to get started.

[Ludvig]

Welcome to Malifaux!

Upgrades and crews often change but I'd say you can't go wrong adding Wade in on Francisco and the upgrade that gives Sonnia access to the flame walls. Hermanos des armas also makes Francisco able to pull friends towards him (could go o any family model), Sonnia usually likes to have a couple of pushes to either get her close enough to attack or pull her out of trouble.

Your crew looks like it will handle killing qell but might suffer from being a bit slow and weak in the interactions department. There may be certain pools that are a lot harder than others for this list in particular but you could ask your opponents to pick schemes that aren't too heavy on the interaction after they have seen your crew and then write them down so you remember them. Playing a similar scheme pool several games in a row will let you learn how the all important VP are gained and if you already have a large play group they could take turns playing you with that same pool so they don't get bored of it but you get to practice.

[Monster]

Just so many abilities, combos, upgrades, schemes etc.. it feels overwhelming but I guess once you play each one a couple of times you really start to get the feel for it. By that point too you probably see what short comings your list has too which should help me decide what to buy next!

[Ludvig]

11 hours ago, Monster said:

Just so many abilities, combos, upgrades, schemes etc.. it feels overwhelming but I guess once you play each one a couple of times you really start to get the feel for it. By that point too you probably see what short comings your list has too which should help me decide what to buy next!

There is a lot to keep track of. I still forget about abilities on models that I've played for years. If you stick to the same list and check your cards regularly you will hopefully learn those models but forgetting an ability or two is more the rule than the exception in games around here because many of us play several masters split over several factions. Models that only cause horror against certain enemies or have some bonus when they activate or a defence against only certain kinds of attacks, etc.

The big focus is on scoring VP. You will quickly discover which schemes you have a decent shot at doing with what you have.

With Sonnia (and most lists) games will be won by whoever has a good eye on positioning. You are allowed to premeasure but knowing exactly which models can push each other etc to know what you are actuslly measuring is the big thing. I would expect Sonnia to get jumped and killed without reachin to attack too many models. That's what happened to me against more experienced players when I started her. If hit the sweet spot with positioning she can decide the game turn one but aclever opponent will bait you to expose her.

[Adran]

13 hours ago, Monster said:

Just so many abilities, combos, upgrades, schemes etc.. it feels overwhelming but I guess once you play each one a couple of times you really start to get the feel for it. By that point too you probably see what short comings your list has too which should help me decide what to buy next!

Malifaux is not a simple game to learn. Each individual model probably has more abilities to learn and ways to use it than a  general in a GW game. It's why my suggestion for learning is to try and use multiple of the same models. It just reduces the amount of rules to look at, and often lets you see what the model can do in a wide range of situations. 

The rules of the game are relatively simple, but learning what you crew does is harder. Learning what your opponent can do is harder still. And you will then also need tactics to achieve a wide range of victory conditions in a wide range if different scenarios. 

But a few games should start you understanding your crew and seeing where it has weakness, and planning on how to deal with that, and where it has strength, and how to exploit that. 

[Monster]

Excited, finally got a demo game schedule at the shop for tonight! Sadly wont be using my stuff because I'm still waiting on some of my kits in the mail and the Sonnia box I got actually came with a Ten Thunders crew in it so Wyrd is kindly replacing that for me. Yeah my plan is to try and use the same few models to play for AWHILE lol.. I think most games and events here are standard 50ss but I might just try and do 30ss to learn the mechanics and schemes etc. Keep them small and fast because I'm sure every game will come with its own challenges and lessons.

[Ludvig]

I find 25ss and a henchman leader to be a fast and fun format for learning. Not having masters makes the game a lot faster and you won't have a single model clearing the table (Sonnia could easily end a 30ss match turn one for example). Most of the time those crews will do fine with two schemes and you will quickly learn to focus ap on scoring which is good. Sam, a handler and three stalkers is a fun 25ss list with room for an upgrade or more soulstones depending on how much you want to complicate things.

Playing 30ss and a master will lead to the master feeling very overpowered and summoners becoming completely bonkers but it's doable if you are ok with that.