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Wave 5 a year later- your thoughts?


4thstringer

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So we are a year in on wave 5.  What are your thoughts on this wave?

Here are mine:

Investigators- quickly becoming a go to model for me.  Disguised makes them more survivable than they should be.  They get you consistent cards, consistent pushes and the situationally brilliant "you there" and "flash the badge".No need to hope for certain suits to make their abilities happen. I always get value from this model.  5/5

Monster hunters- the model that made us all miss how good the investigator would be.  What a nice package.   The model my opponents are most likely to complain about.  Does great damage against the models you want to hurt, pushes away models they can't deal with.  If these models aren't making your lists it may be time to reevaluate your lists. 5/5

Jury- another model with a lot of bang for the buck.  Really likes the card draw you get from other places, but helps so many different models it can turn on models you might not use otherwise.  Such a good ml attack, but her defensive triggers  might be more interesting than good. 4/5

Thalarian queller- the enchant weapons is the real star of this card imo.  If suppression markers covered a little more space I think they would be better.  The card draw is nice.  Against incorp or arcanists I'd probably use them more, but I play against tt a lot so I haven't gotten a ton of use out of them-3/5

Riot breaker- phew that new model looks good but it's so expensive.  I really like these but they've been overshadowed by the other 6ss minions.  In my experience they won't score you points (except maybe hold up their forces, which is crap), but they will prevent your opponents from scoring.  3/5

Domador- I want to love this model.  It's so pretty.  Bringing in a lure with a belle is really good in gg 2018.  Haven't had much success with any other bring ins.  I don't think I've ever successfully used his ability to have a dying model take an action, but that's more on my style of play.  I like blasting off Nellie, healing her and hurting enemies, but is it good?  Tough to say.  2/5

Upgrades:

Perdita- fastest shot- auto take with her.  Always valuable 4/5

Shooting cans- I like it, but scheme marker schemes have become less popular in this meta.  Meh 2/5

Lucius-deep pockets- auto take.  Love it 5/5

Condescending- I haven't gotten this one to work yet.  Same complaint regarding scheme markers, but talk down to them is the real stinker.  Lucius just isn't in range to use it enough.  And using a master ap for something like this might be worth it elsewhere, but it hasn't been here. The devil's deal change is something I think other people may have had pay off, but I haven't.  1/5

Sonnia Criid- no more masks- I'm getting decent mileage out of this, but I'm not sure it's better than what she already has. More fun than good 2/5

Cherufes parting gift- if it weren't for the totem rules making so this kills the child it would get a 5/5 from me.  As it is, chain activation has made her tougher to deal with and less interactive than ever.  I like it from a power standpoint, but I think it was bad for the gane.  4/5

Hoffman- improved harness- another auto take-the Hoff ball lives, but to me it's that (0) that has really made it good to me -4/5

Pneumatic upgrades- so much potential, great for jank.  I know people have done really well with this with Hoff, but I'm kind of cold on it.  More steps for a master with too many moving parts already. 2/5 for power, 4/5 for jank

Lady j- swordfighter- made lj a force to be feared. Would be takeable just for the (0).  Has one of the only usable (2) actions in the game. 5/5

Ashwood coffin- two things hold this back.  1. Can't box masters.  That makes me really sad, 2. Limited.  Means it competes with several other good options for lj.  Can be hard to justify not just killing something, but sometimes the box is a more efficient option.  2.5/5

Mcmourning- guild coroner- can mean Mcmourning gets a lot of scheming done.  I haven't played that much with him but it seems ok. 3/5

Test subjects- sure turns on some jank, but as I've said in other posts, this upgrade then removing Mcmourning from guild could really leave guild players vwith a bunch of beasts and academics they can never use again.  0/5

Nellie-both of these come with a caveat- the upgrades she already had were too good to replace.

Alternative facts- I've had some fun with the card draw from this.  Fees still isn't good though, and not dropping markers around her is too easy. 2/5

Editor in chief- this upgrade might as well cost three stones.  While I see value in this to manage scheme risks, it's a negative value proposition when you have to sacrifice better upgrades for it.  I'd rather have the thallerian stone. 1/5

Conflux of propaganda.  I have run this twice and never used either ability.  I had to look it up to remember what it does.  The brutal isn't great with Nellie anyways(except for some jank), and this isn't changing that. 1/5

Do you agree, disagree?  I'm certainly no expert, and would love for you to tell me why I'm wrong.  I left Lucas McCabe out because I don't care about him :-).

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Haven't seen all of them and haven't run moat of them myself but here I go.

The quellers are an absolute pain, they invalidate all my defenses and slow my melee beaters.

Jury shows up a lot and is annoying as hell with LJ for auto riposte or auatringers for mad discards and even makes Santiago scary.

Swordighter is always on LJ and made a huge difference for her, ahe's nearly impossible to lock down now.

Deep pockets is a definite autotake and condescending is nice for lure-focused lists or countering one all-star model. Pretty much any model goes down if you get this on them and hit with positives from Lucius. It is trickier to use condeacending defensively due to the range. 

Pneumatic upgrades I like because you can drop the normal upgrade upgrade and let the models buff themselves which frees up ap for the Hoff and lets you take the non-construct allstars with him. The harness is always on.

McCabe's loot bag is also such an auto take that it is ridiculous, it's straight up a free stone. The disguised one can be very annoying for someone who doesn't bother with ranged attacks and helps some schemes immensely.

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I’m so happy about the investigators. They were my favorites but a year of ‘monster hunters omg’ was starting to worry me. But no. They deserve their stars.

I haven’t gotten the use out of my queller that I expected, but that’s maybe due to a shift in meta (the amount of Neverborn has plummeted). Someone in every opposing crew is annoyed by losing suits, though. I have even irritated a Lilith crew by effectively stripping its triggers.

Improved Harness is 5/5 even if it annoys me to lose a master upgrade slot for the crew to work as intended from the start. Nerd rage beater Hoffman leaping in and disassembling models is hilarious, though. Agree completely on Pneumatic Upgrades.

Loot Bag is yet again one of those things that’s better in Ten Thunders (bloody terracotta warriors!) but that doesn’t make it bad here. Free don’t-mind-me is nice, but in a faction with Lucius it matters less.

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Jury: Good model with lots of different uses. She does die quite easy but that is mainly because the opponent tends to focus on bringing her down. 4/5

Thallarian Queller: A swiss army knife of buffs and debuffs. The disruption markers are actually less useful than I thought, but if you get the right cards and against the right crews they can be good. I think they are hard to rate as they tend to either perform really well or do very little for me. But overall I think they are solid. 3.5-4/5

Swordfighter: Such an auto-take. It makes Lady J much better overall. "Acrobatic assault" is what really makes it shine in my opinion, but "Justice at the end of a blade" can be quite useful in the right situations. 5/5

Cherufe's parting gift: At first I took this for the summoning, but quickly found out that the chain activation is the real value of this card. It makes so many setups which were previously theoretical possible. I always take this for Sonnia. I have also learned to not always summon the totem whenever I can since an unfortunate accident when it exploded and lit a Witchling stalker on fire, which in turn caused the stalker to die and explode at the end of the turn, which killed a Witchling handler. 5/5

Deep pockets: Auto-take. Really good. And now when I'm actually starting to remember to discard a card when I activate Lucius, it's even better! 5/5

Condecending: I have not really been able to make this work. I can see its uses in theory, but in practice the situations where it can be used have not happened. 2/5

Improved harness: I could not imagine a situation where I would not want to take this. 5/5

 

Looking forward to trying the rest of the wave 5 models when they actually get released.

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Investigators- Excellent abilites including card draw and non resisted pushes. Excellent survivability. Few damage ability, but good hindering abilities. A tactical that can prevent opponent from scoring. I really like this model, but it should be nerfed. 6/5. Special note for the sculpt with the carpet :)

Monster hunters- fast, punchy models for 6 points. At 7, with bonus on equal or higher cost, I think I would still use them with Perdita and Lucius. At 6, the cost seems a little low for their efficiency. 5.5/5.

Jury- excellent stat line. Good attacks. Condition removal. I do not rate her 5 only because there's a lot of competition on this cost. It enters teams when I need masks. That's still a good 4/5

Riot breaker- An excellent model. It should be a 4, but with the new lead lined coats, players tend to use many anti armor ability against guild. That makes the riot breaker too squishy at the moment. 3/5

Thalarian queller- A lot of interesting buffs and debuffs here,, but I have never been able to use them right. I thought they would be 3, maybe 4 because of the suppression markers, but this ability is useless against most of the teams, and hard to use when otherwise. 2.5/5

Domador- good stats. With a lead lined coat, excellent survivability. Thats the best healer in guild at the momen, but healing is usually not really efficient. You can use interesting models with him (belles for luring, necropunk for scheme running, flesh construct for fun, etc...) Good for fun, but it fits a niche that we do not need. 2/5

Upgrades:

Perdita- fastest - auto take with her. Not game changing, but always efficient 4/5

Shooting cans- never needed it in GG2018. Even then, you will probably use Perdita to kill things, and another model handle schemes. 1/5

Lucius-deep pockets-  auto take with him. Not game changing, but always efficient 4/5

Condescending- not tried, but does not seem useful ?/5 (I suppose 1/5)

Sonnia Criid

no more masks- You have some better choices of upgrade for her on competitive games. That's a good way to have more interactive games with Sonnia 4/5 for fun games, 1/5 for competitive play

Cherufes parting gift- really potent upgrade to kill games. The chain activation is deadly. It seems to be a new auto take for competitive games. I would rate it for 5 but it makes the game less interactive. 4/5

Lady j- swordfighter- I have really started to use LJ with this upgrade. I do not see how you can play her without this upgrade. 5/5

Ashwood coffin- Excellent upgrade. Would be 5/5 if it wasn't limited. It competes with badge of office and Vendetta which are both really good. It is still the one I prefer in these 3 4/5

Nellie- The conflux is not really good. The rule of 6 aleady has a good trigger. The 0action is good, but not especially impressive. I will probably try the emissary one day with Nellie, but that's not high on priority list ?/5 (I suppose 2/5)

Editor in chief- I do not like the win more when you are already winning type of ability. The 0 action is really expensive. That's an excellent upgrade when you are learning to play : choosing the good schemes is often hard for new players. 4/5 for new players, 2/5 otherwise

Alternative facts- Fees is not a good condition. It is easy for opponent to block line of sight when putting schemes. The card draw is fun, but you have other upgrades more interesting for her 2/5

Hoffman- never played

mac Mourning - never played

Mac Cabe - no experience

 

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Investigators / Monster hunters / Riot breaker / Domador – I wish they were out and able to use them. I really don’t like using proxies and refuse to do so as do the rest of the gaming group so Malifaux is not been played so much lately.

I am looking forwarder to the Investigatos and MH, any tips on them? I see people rave about them, but I don’t see them that great on paper. I know the Investigator push can come in handy and MH can shoot a lot but I am pretty sure I’m missing much more.

 Jury- I stated loving her with Nellie and she formed a trio of Henchemn with Frank and Phiona for a long time, then I changed her for an executioner and haven´t used her since with Nellie. She also was a staple with Lucius and 2 Austingers, but I dropped them and she left with them. I changed them for a Dopple and a Beckoner as lures are so powerful and haven’t used her since with Lucius so she doesn’t see play anymore.

Thalarian queller- The only wave 5 minion I have and I play him with Nellie/Lucius so he is a staple. The enchant weapon is a must in my area as there is a lot of armor. The markers is the only way I can play against ressers as the usually run 2 belles here and I can deny the lures.

Wave 5 did add much to my playstyle as I play Nellie/Lucius, so only Deep Pockets is worth it. I have played Lay J twice and don’t like her play style but the upgrade really help her not get stuck in combat with cannon fodder.

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Thats no magic,  percs of power is pretty corner case, i usually forget about it. Ruthless Efficiency is nice to have, if you really need the stone or have a model, that would die anyway. I use it maybe every second game or so.

But Talk down to them is the real shit. A Model that can't cheat, while the opponent can is a liability. You can hamper some beater pro actively or prepare a beat down yourself. Or smack it on a Summoner and watch them sob. If they don't stack positive flips or flip very good you can usually avoid beeing hit or garantee a hit yourself with Medium High cards.

Follow up with some red tape and giggle. I play Lucius usually midfield just behind the biggest brawl he can find, so 6" is more then enough. After all he likes walking (walk, trigger duel on yourself and Talk down to them. Its effectively 10". Stone for a ram, shove the damage to a beefy minion and have some sniper shoot your target before ordering a thrall to Finish it and heal himself. Around seven Damage)

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5 hours ago, Tors said:

Condescending is so damn good. No idea why nobody here gets it oO Aggro Lucius wins Games.

I have seen Condescending aggro Lucius but it takes so much setup in position (and often scheme markers as well to apply excessive red tape). Transparency Dade was a must to drop enough scheme markers for Secret Objectives. Phiona can’t hit with triggers often enough, although Phiona attacking the model which just got that can’t-cheat condition was fun.

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I rarely use sceme markers, usually only to Trigger Thralls. Positioning is so easy and you don't really need anyone but Lucius and his beater(s). The scribe is nearby usually.

Charge/position a thrall in First (or something other durable), walk Lucius nearby, do some Lucius stuff and next round, belittle them, shoot them and push/punch with Thrall. Bonus points if you incorperate what lackeys are for to Trigger am traditional hit while reposition both models.

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44 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

I have seen Condescending aggro Lucius but it takes so much setup in position (and often scheme markers as well to apply excessive red tape). Transparency Dade was a must to drop enough scheme markers for Secret Objectives. Phiona can’t hit with triggers often enough, although Phiona attacking the model which just got that can’t-cheat condition was fun.

I thought Phi had transparency trigger built in, and Dade didn't.  Did I have that wrong the whole time?

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3 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I thought Phi had transparency trigger built in, and Dade didn't.  Did I have that wrong the whole time?

No, you’re right. Dade doesn’t require her targets to be in melee reach, and can more often be fast, and can passively heal the Lucius crew which is feeding Lucius stones for red tape, so she was the chosen journalist for the Lucius crews here.

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1 minute ago, Gnomezilla said:

No, you’re right. Dade doesn’t require her targets to be in melee reach, and can more often be fast, and can passively heal the Lucius crew which is feeding Lucius stones for red tape, so she was the chosen journalist for the Lucius crews here.

I've run Dade with Lucius in some of my less killy lists because in those the slow and pick up their scheme marker was more valuable than the kill, and my horde of guardsmen enjoyed her auras.

I just realized you could use Dade to pick up your own scheme marker, something that is usually almost impossible (I think).  Would have to slow your own model, but seems situationally very useful to me.

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