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Math Mathonwy

The unbeatable Seamus list

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OK, the title is obviously hyperbole but I'm now 5-0 with this list including a tournament win.

  • Seamus (Mad Haberdasher, Do You Know Who I Am, Sinister Reputation), 6 Pool
  • Copycat Killer
  • 4x Rotten Belle
  • Dead Doxy
  • Crooligan
  • Crooked Man
  • Necropunk

Ten models is a lot which allows you to outactivate most enemies and do evil stuff to them.

I switched the Necropunk and Crooligan for three Night Terrors for a game where there was no need for Scheme runners. Night Terrors are ridiculously annoying and help with the outactivation.

The secret to the list is that there's no targets for the opponent. The only model that's worth more than 5SS is Seamus and he is basically unkillable with the hat if you play it even a bit safe. You have six stones and no one else who uses them. And the rest of the crew is ridiculously durable and not worth killing, really. And there's little need for cards, either, (Dead Doxy's Take the Lead is basically the only one) so you're free to use the good cards for Seamus to kill stuff or make your Lures irresistable when needed.

Why a Crooked Man? Because he is amazing in Paralyzing nasty Enforcers. Unlike normal lists, you don't need high Crows for anything else so make that melee Trigger work. In the second practice game I Paralyzed a Fast Looped Peacekeeper.

You also put down massive pressure on the opponent's hand since your Lures have a high Ca and since Seamus' Boo is nasty. So even Copycat Killer can kill stuff pretty well if you time him right and have a high card left.

How do you win? Well, you stop your opponent from achieving VP through the use of Lures and Seamus. Since you outactivate, this is really doable. And no matter what they're trying to do, you are really good at stopping them. The control that this list achieves is remarkable.

Oh, and don't get too focused on Boo. It's amazing but sometimes Seamus is better at being just a shooter. In the second tournament game I Lured and Pushed Seamus into the middle of the field and double Focus shotted for four turns (8 to Nekima, 8 to Nekima, 8 to Collodi, 8 to Tooth) and then triple Walked to score Undercover Entourage. Immobile gun turret Seamus! :P 

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You are a filthy finnish gremlin and you should feel bad! I bet you are the sole  reason for every nerf so far! :D Btw, your opponent should have had the condition immunity upgrade on that peacekeeper, tell them to reportforthe guild's judgement. ;)

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8 hours ago, Ludvig said:

You are a filthy finnish gremlin and you should feel bad! I bet you are the sole  reason for every nerf so far! :D Btw, your opponent should have had the condition immunity upgrade on that peacekeeper, tell them to reportforthe guild's judgement. ;)

Note that the only thing in the list that isn't from books 1&2 is one Upgrade :P 

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5 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Note that the only thing in the list that isn't from books 1&2 is one Upgrade :P 

You even spam the supposedly "nerfed" belles. :D

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Hayreddin is only 6 stones now and is a flying wk6 with DF7! He could make an interesting replacement for the necropunk, though he cant "leap" as often since he needs vitality to teleport around, he would provide a bigger damage threat and if he stands in the right place can add a nasty :+flipto damage for Seamus' gun.

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1 hour ago, Nukemouse said:

Hayreddin is only 6 stones now and is a flying wk6 with DF7! He could make an interesting replacement for the necropunk, though he cant "leap" as often since he needs vitality to teleport around, he would provide a bigger damage threat and if he stands in the right place can add a nasty :+flipto damage for Seamus' gun.

Not a bad idea!

The only thing I'm a bit leery about is that Hayreddin would add a clear target for the opponent to try and bring down. Because currently one of the greatest strengths of the list is that there's nothing there that the opponent wants dead (other than Seamus but good luck with that) and they therefore waste all their big hitters. That said, I suppose it mostly depends on how sneaky you can be with Hayreddin - he could even be used to bait stuff, I guess. And that Df7 works nicely with the list's general theme of not needing high cards for much of anything.

Certainly worth a try, in any case!

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I will defenetely try the list but i'm really worried that it might not work well in my local meta... Rotten Belles and especially Doxys are almost always a prime tarket for an opponent and they are really squishy when you face Shenlong with Snipers/McTavish, or Lucius with Thralls and Trappers, or heavy-blast-Wong e.t.c. However, i never thought about Crooked Man in a list with lot of lures and pushes and it sounds good :) 

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33 minutes ago, Sagrit said:

I will defenetely try the list but i'm really worried that it might not work well in my local meta... Rotten Belles and especially Doxys are almost always a prime tarket for an opponent and they are really squishy when you face Shenlong with Snipers/McTavish, or Lucius with Thralls and Trappers, or heavy-blast-Wong e.t.c. However, i never thought about Crooked Man in a list with lot of lures and pushes and it sounds good :) 

Belles have a ton of wounds, and unless you're focusing they outrange you. The hard you wound will at least counter the focus damage flip, and you need 2 hits one of which must be severe.  So that's 4ap.  and 2 good cards. Just to kill one belle.  Which can have probably lured a sniper into range of the rest. 

It might not work for you, but it's probably not the fragility of belles to snipers that is the problem. 

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Looks pretty easy to beat to me. I was trying something like that in early waves. Paralyze/condition lockdown Seamus, Kill belles, earn VP. While there is nothing really targetable in the list besides Seamus, you can’t really apply much pressure without Seamus, and while Hat Seamus might be difficult to actually kill outright, locking him down isn’t all that tough. Congrats for the record, but at the moment I would argue it’s more a function of needing to relearn how to deal with the list because it’s mostly counter to dealing with current lists rather than inherently being all that strong.

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I do not argue, just talking about local meta :) You know, couple of Katanaka snipers with +++ to Attack and ++ to damage shooting 28" with 2/3/5 damage line and Critiacal Strike is not so unique. And with 5Wk it will take about 2 Lures to get a sniper somewhere near the center. 

I'm not saying that Belles or any other unit in list are fragile. But if an opponent have no other targets, it's not so hard to take off couple of models per turn. For example meelee heavy Neverborn list would only benefit of such amount of Lures. Belles live long because usually there are more prioritise targets. But if i face this list as an opponent my focus will be on Doxys and Belles only. No need to spend AP trying to kill Seamus with DYKWIA and a Hat. No need to spend AP for Crooligan, Crooked and Necropunk (well outside of Surround and Covert Schemes). So if i'm aggressive, Belles and Doxys will be dead pretty soon. 

I personaly do love Belle bomb, but usualy adds Emissary and/or Sybelle with Not Too Badged Up. But it's completely different list and idea.
 

However, i see a good potential for this list with such s&s like Ply For Information, Public Demonstration, Vendetta, Set Up, Covert Breakthrough and Undercover Entourage of course. And opposive side, when such list could be a gift for an opponent : Supply Wagons, Symbols, Public Executions, Hold Up Their Forces, Show of Force, Punish the Weak.

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15 minutes ago, Sagrit said:

I do not argue, just talking about local meta :) You know, couple of Katanaka snipers with +++ to Attack and ++ to damage shooting 28" with 2/3/5 damage line and Critiacal Strike is not so unique. And with 5Wk it will take about 2 Lures to get a sniper somewhere near the center. 

Yup. It happened to me several times that Katanaka Sniper within Kang's aura range took down Belle on turn one before she has even activated. The fact is that if someone decides to attack Belle it is because he has good chance to take her down in two AP, otherwise people just ignore them.

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I think this is just a matter of target priority, take out the totem, take out the low wound count models to stop activation control. always try to stand someone next to seamus so he has to be moved out of the engagement.

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To be fair to Math, just standing next to him doesn’t protect you because of DYKWIA,  In theory.

You’ll get at least one turn of grace if you end a walk or attack him and pass the horror duel, do that and he can’t use boo! on you because you become immune to horror duels after passing one from the same model for the rest of the turn. Being immune means you don’t have to take the duel and thus can’t be paralyzed or pushed. But if you aren’t immune for some reason standing next to him doesn’t help because once he activates it you are going to be paralyzed or pushed. 

Luckily one of the strengths of the ressers makes passing that duel slightly easier. As you will rarely ever be able to cheat dmg, and as ressers in general, and this list in particular, have abysmal defense, you can use your highest cards to pass his horror duels and try to resist his one actually effective attack each turn.

That was also a turning point for my opponents when I was running a similar list. When they realized they didn’t have to use their cards as conservatively as they do against other factions, and could just use them more aggressively.

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i would probably also consider subing a belle and a crooligan for asura roten, 1 extra activation turn 1 at the cost of seamuses first 0 action and a 9.

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1 hour ago, Spyrer said:

i would probably also consider subing a belle and a crooligan for asura roten, 1 extra activation turn 1 at the cost of seamuses first 0 action and a 9.

that's pretty clear idea, but it's just against Math's list idead where he have no prime targets and all models costs same 4-5SS :) Just because Asura will be the most expensive model and will be prime target, especially when Vendetta is in the pool. And she will die easily, that's guarantee. Personally i do love Asura in Seamus lists, she do lot of stuff outside her activation, but, to be honest, it's always a problem to spend her own AP's effectively...

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2 minutes ago, Sagrit said:

that's pretty clear idea, but it's just against Math's list idead where he have no prime targets and all models costs same 4-5SS :) Just because Asura will be the most expensive model and will be prime target, especially when Vendetta is in the pool. And she will die easily, that's guarantee. Personally i do love Asura in Seamus lists, she do lot of stuff outside her activation, but, to be honest, it's always a problem to spend her own AP's effectively...

I usually use her APs to slap 2-4 grasping hands on someone. and also making her a prime target saves your more important models, and she can heal and use stones.

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6 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Looks pretty easy to beat to me. I was trying something like that in early waves. Paralyze/condition lockdown Seamus, Kill belles, earn VP. While there is nothing really targetable in the list besides Seamus, you can’t really apply much pressure without Seamus, and while Hat Seamus might be difficult to actually kill outright, locking him down isn’t all that tough.

Chiaki would not be a bad idea - she is tough, can deal with Conditions and can sub for a Scheme runner.

6 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Congrats for the record, but at the moment I would argue it’s more a function of needing to relearn how to deal with the list because it’s mostly counter to dealing with current lists rather than inherently being all that strong.

It's certainly possible to devise a list to take this one down but I really meant this as a counter to the current meta that favours insane alpha strikes and stuff like that. And that is why I didn't add the Emissary/Asura/Sybelle/whatever else. I also feel that GG18 is a surprisingly good environment for this style of list.

Gremlins do have lots of trouble with this list, though. I'm not at all sure how I'd tackle this one without specifically building a counter against it.

6 hours ago, Sagrit said:

No need to spend AP for Crooligan, Crooked and Necropunk (well outside of Surround and Covert Schemes).

If they aren't needed for Schemes, I suggest replacing them with Chiaki and/or Night Terrors.

6 hours ago, Sagrit said:

However, i see a good potential for this list with such s&s like Ply For Information, Public Demonstration, Vendetta, Set Up, Covert Breakthrough and Undercover Entourage of course. And opposive side, when such list could be a gift for an opponent : Supply Wagons, Symbols, Public Executions, Hold Up Their Forces, Show of Force, Punish the Weak.

Some of those like Hold up their Forces and Show of Force might seem superb at a first glance but getting more than one point against this list from those might be trickier than you'd initially think if the Seamus player is good with Lures. Especially Hold up Their Forces might end up being way dangerous.

That said, there certainly are obvious weaknesses in the Strat&Scheme department for this list and I did give full points for Punish the Weak against Collodi (it was helped by terrain, he did flip and play well, and I could've played it better but it's still a tough Scheme to deny).

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7 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

Yup. It happened to me several times that Katanaka Sniper within Kang's aura range took down Belle on turn one before she has even activated. The fact is that if someone decides to attack Belle it is because he has good chance to take her down in two AP, otherwise people just ignore them.

I don't see how a sniper is going to be in range to kill it in 2 ap unless you are doing close deployment. Without focus you don't have a huge range.  

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30 minutes ago, Adran said:

I don't see how a sniper is going to be in range to kill it in 2 ap unless you are doing close deployment. Without focus you don't have a huge range.  

Peasant gives Sniper focus, Sniper activates, shoots, focuses for (0) and shoots again.

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13 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Not a bad idea!

The only thing I'm a bit leery about is that Hayreddin would add a clear target for the opponent to try and bring down. Because currently one of the greatest strengths of the list is that there's nothing there that the opponent wants dead (other than Seamus but good luck with that) and they therefore waste all their big hitters. That said, I suppose it mostly depends on how sneaky you can be with Hayreddin - he could even be used to bait stuff, I guess. And that Df7 works nicely with the list's general theme of not needing high cards for much of anything.

Certainly worth a try, in any case!

Having one target that is very fast and DF7 so you can cheat to dodge most things AND will get you some card cycling on death doesn't seem so bad. Enemy beaters will gravitate towards Hayreddin, only to be lured out of position by belles.

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5 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Chiaki would not be a bad idea - she is tough, can deal with Conditions and can sub for a Scheme runner.

It's certainly possible to devise a list to take this one down but I really meant this as a counter to the current meta that favours insane alpha strikes and stuff like that. And that is why I didn't add the Emissary/Asura/Sybelle/whatever else. I also feel that GG18 is a surprisingly good environment for this style of list.

Gremlins do have lots of trouble with this list, though. I'm not at all sure how I'd tackle this one without specifically building a counter against it.

If they aren't needed for Schemes, I suggest replacing them with Chiaki and/or Night Terrors.

Some of those like Hold up their Forces and Show of Force might seem superb at a first glance but getting more than one point against this list from those might be trickier than you'd initially think if the Seamus player is good with Lures. Especially Hold up Their Forces might end up being way dangerous.

That said, there certainly are obvious weaknesses in the Strat&Scheme department for this list and I did give full points for Punish the Weak against Collodi (it was helped by terrain, he did flip and play well, and I could've played it better but it's still a tough Scheme to deny).

Looks really mean! :+flip

Gremlin-wise, the only thing I can think of with Gremlins, is to fight on outactivation. If you win that battle, perhaps you can get to call the shots (excuse the pun!) on who goes when (and where!) and then might have a chance to bring down a Belle or two - which in turn would turn the tide of the overall game.

I guess Gremlins having cheap activations and cheap-ish beaters (and lots of AP) they can invest extra resources to try and kill even low-priority targets like Crooligans etc - and that would then skew the outactivation battle even more.

A summoning-heavy Som'er or my beloved Ulix for example? I usually have 13-15 activations, several disposable pigs and a lot of healing.

Tough call though, can't say it would always work...and I certainly wouldn't wanna deal with quadruple lures for the life of me, especially with the renowned Gremlin Willpower!

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Hello I tried yesterday this crew

Seamus (Sinister reputation, DYKWIA, Decaying Aura)

Copicat

Carrion Emissary (Carrion Conflux) 

4 Rottens Belles

1 Crooligan

1 Necropunk

I played against Lady Justice and i won. My opponent keep his cards for th shoot of Seamus and i was able to control lot of things. At the start of the 2nd turn, you have 10 activations and you can summon a dead doxies with your card. With Carrion Conflux (close to belles), you don't cheat a card before Seamus (or for Shard Markers) and it's a real pleasure. And do the Undress Actions with Rottens is a real problem for him (as much as the Lure Action)

 

Thinks a lot for the crew and i will try the next time with 3 rottens and 1 doxies at the start.

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On 7/30/2018 at 3:27 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

And the rest of the crew is ridiculously durable and not worth killing, really.

This is why I love playing with Flesh Constructs. My usual opponent doesn't even bother trying.

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