First feelings M3E

[necroon]

As a huge fan of Collodi as a character/ concept since it came out I was a little bummed. More-so because it kinda spoiled that something bad probably happens to it. Euripides sounds pretty freaking awesome, though. And all the Master shifts aside I like the sounds of everything else. I was a bit iffy on the card Sizes but Tarot sized cards for Malifaux is pretty thematic as a friend pointed out to me and I have little trouble transporting similar sized cards for Star Wars Armada.

I'm very curious to see what Nekima does with the Nephalim throne. She's not been the most explored or interesting character in the fluff because she only does the one thing (try and kill Lilith) but now that she doesn't have to do it anymore it'll be cool to see what she's like.

[Gloomy]

If I could describe what the M3E announcement felt like, it was like Wyrd giving me a huge piece of chocolate cake with real cream and strawberries and then punching me hard in the stomach. Now I'm rolling around the floor in pain covered in delicious cake...

In all seriousness I'm super excited for a new edition. I just need a period of mourning for some of my favourite masters. Collodi was my first master, and imo still the coolest concept in the game. I'm glad he's still usable in Dead mans Hand and i will definitely continue to play him. I just hope I can still use the all the models i got to go with him as I bought, assembled and painted everything with the puppet tagword. I'm very interested to see what happened to him in the fluff and I totally believe he'll come back at some point in the future, as someone said earlier Neverborn without the creepy dolls just doesn't seem right

[Da Git]

16 hours ago, necroon said:

I'm very curious to see what Nekima does with the Nephalim throne. She's not been the most explored or interesting character in the fluff because she only does the one thing (try and kill Lilith) but now that she doesn't have to do it anymore it'll be cool to see what she's like.

This kind of had me picturing the end scene of Pinky and the Brain cartoons...

• Angel Eyes: So what are we going to do tomorrow night Nekima?
• Nekima: Are you pondering what I'm Pondering Angel Eyes?
• Angel Eyes: We go moon-walking on inflatable Siluids?
• Nekima: No, you fool. We do the same thing we do every night... Try to find and kill my sister!
• Angel Eyes: But didn't we do that last night?
• Nekima: Oh yeah... Hmm... Well I suppose moon-walking on inflatable siluids does sound pretty fun...

[Bazlord_Prime]

On 7/27/2018 at 9:20 PM, TeddyBear said:

Bazlord, my feeling is that it's a lot less time, after all, they will start with demo of m3e in few days.. i suppose end of this year, or Jan.19...

I was just thinking that they've traditionally released new books at GenCon, they're also going to be busy with The Other Side going live and needing tweaking once it's available to all, plus there's M3e beta testing to initiate, resolve, analyse & implement, then write all the fluff, do all the graphics, arrange everything, get the printers sorted out with enough time to produce the first run, then get them out to distributors worldwide. Which all sounds like a lot, to me.

Much of this may already have been done, of course - what do I know? But they're only demoing Raspy & Marcus (? Only two Masters, anyway) at GenCon, which indicates to me that they've probably just whipped something up for those Masters in order to show off, and the rest will be sketched out later.

In any case, we'll see! I guess it's important tho, to speculate whether there'll be a GG2019... 🙂

[Tickle Monster]

I think that they are a lot further along than just doing 2 masters. The descriptions of the masters that have made the cut seem pretty detailed. I think that most of the the rules have been done and wyrd will simply open the whole lot up to the player community to find as many wrinkles, inconsistencies and over powered combos etc. as possible. 

[emiba]

I would be inclined to agree. Wyrd has also answered questions about two of the most complained about parts of the rules, height and timing, with confirmations that these have been reworked. There's other answers as well that to me would indicate that this is pretty far along, unless they're just randomly throwing out comments about something that hasn't happened which sounds unlikely. Still don't think it is in the immediate future though.

[edopersichetti]

I'm a seasoned Neverborn player, actually I started with Pandora because I loved her concept, as opposed to most people who seemed started with Lilith. In fact, I think most Neverborn players favor Lilith and play mostly or exclusively her...so a shuffle is probably among Wyrd's intentions, as to "channel" Nvb players towards other masters. But I digress: here are my thoughts on Nvb masters!

- Lilith: she's the most versatile master in faction, can play essentially any scheme/strat and lead any crew, usually very far from her thematic crew in fact, all facts that might have been good in an earlier version of Malifaux, but as the game expands seem to go against the spirit - with the designers trying to differentiate playstyles and reward thematic crews. So her in your face/guerrilla/terrain portfolio is going to be split into....

- Nekima: she'll be the epitome of glass cannon, leading a crew presumably featuring Nephilim, Black Blood and extreme violence. I expect good mobility, too! Definitely a go-to choice in some scenarios, and doesn't even need a new model (I presume any serious Neverborn player owns a Nekima or two  )

...and...

- Titania: the queen finally gets a bit of spotlight. I'm extremely happy because in the fluff she's an extremely powerful being coming from the past, a true ruler of the Neverborn who is meant to overshadow everyone else in faction....and instead struggled to be competitive and to steal the attention from Lilith due to her superior versatility and oiled mechanics. Now she'll pick up the terrain abilities, completing her back of tricks. I assume her damage dealing will be perhaps even lower, but she'll be tanky, and mess with the table and the adversary even more. This is (finally) her chance to shine. Expect to see tons of hazardous terrain, forests (illusionary and not), markers etc.

- Collodi: dead, gone, who knows? Definitely out of the picture for now. Curious to see what the fluff justification for him would be - if there will be any. One of the powerhouses of the faction, with a very unique playstyle - he will be missed. I don't know, maybe they had trouble fitting him in the story, as well as balancing his mechanics? He *is* very powerful, his My Will and Pull the Strings are ridiculously strong and were probably due for a nerf anyway. He was one of my favorite masters...until I stopped playing him because winning with him was a bit too easy for my liking, and I started looking for more challenges. But I'll miss him, and also I'll have a ton of puppets out of faction that will just sit on my shelf for a long time. It looks like he might be replaced by....

- Zoraida: yes, the witch will probably affirm herself as the top Obey/action manipulation master (as it should be!) Again, a master that was being overshadowed and had to be fixed in a hurry (Will o Wisps) - hopefully they'll rework her mechanics enough that she can truly shine again. I feel it'll be difficult to balance her again, seeing how she retained her dual faction Gremlins status (which, given by the story, seemed unlikely), but perhaps this will be a "token" dual faction only for show, and her crew will be mostly focused on the swamp and swampfiend. Many models in there need love (i.e. rework) - gators, boars, spawn mother, silurids, adze...the only ones I feel are fairly common in any crew are Will o Wisps, but I consider them more an extension of Zoraida than a model per se. So plenty of opportunities for reworking useless models.

- Euripides: we lost a cool master with Collodi, we get a cool new one! His mechanics look very interesting and different, which will be welcome. Obviously don't know much about him, but I can expect a crew that involves the Cyclops, and other Fae, and a non-trivial intersection with Titania's - plus maybe some new models entirely for him! A welcome addition for sure!

- Marcus: yes please! Wyrd's best idea ever, IMHO. Especially because I splashed Arcanist some time ago (I have Colette and Rasputina) and I was always tempted by Marcus...now he's dual faction he's pretty much a must for me. But I think no one can deny the fascination of his updated mechanics, with the addition of mutations and the like, he's a more sinister beastmaster and probably will be able to benefit from some of the movement and terrain tricks typical of the faction! Can't wait!!

- Dreamer: I have him, but I hardly ever play him. He's a weird master IMHO, and not very popular at the moment in GG18. Little nerfs and shifts in schemes/strats hurt him a bit. Now I hear they wanna make him a full-fledged summoner, with a different and new mechanic...but at the same time keep up with his "growing up" and being an adolescent so I don't know. He'll probably stay in the shelf for me - but hey, some big Dreamer fans out there might be excited.

- Lynch: yep he's pretty much gone. I suspect this is not just my opinion: he was already better in TT and I think many other Neverborn players will just say goodbye since they don't wanna splash TT. I never quite mastered him and his mechanics, especially since I don't play TT as I said, and in any case he was never a "top tier" master. His playstyle looks like will stay pretty much the same, too, so I think this will be a somewhat less painful loss for Neverborn. Adieu, Jakob.

- Lucius: the only master I don't own, perhaps for the simple reason that he's a bit too "Guild-y" for my liking (I abhor everything even vaguely related to the Guild, with the only exception of the Brutal Effigy - and that's already a stretch). Really never wanted to own or paint Guild Guards, Hounds, or anything like that. His playstyle is cool though, especially after the fix, which always made me wonder if one day I shouldn't start him...but I'm still doubtful. Again, looks like his playstyle will stay pretty much the same.

- Pandora: my first Neverborn love will remain the adorable crazy mind-freak that we learned to adore. Her playstyle will somehow change though, and I'm not sure it'll be for the better. I was a big fan of Misery damage, had a tremendous potential for damage output, now if you take damage only when cheating fate...most of the times that will be irrelevant, and capped to six times per turn if the opponent decides to use all his six cards to cheat damage when targeted by 'Dora. Very unlikely... Also since Paralyzed seems to be gone, she loses another of her main weapons. Looks like they want to bring her back to her "intended" use of self-harm and mood swing - who knows, maybe they'll make it work, those were two mechanics that were heavily underwhelming, at least in my Pandora experience. So I'm a bit worried she will become somewhat weaker - but hey, there's still hope, we'll see what the playtest looks like!

And that's it. Overall I think the balance is extremely positive. Personally I lose a master that I didn't use anyway (Lynch), and Lilith will essentially be replaced by the duo Nekima-Titania, depending on situation. As other people have said, you won't have the "swiss army knife" all in one that made her special, but perhaps this was the intention all along. Collodi...yes, will hurt, but I expect Zoraida will benefit from it. And speaking of models, I have hopes for some of the most underwhelming (Wicked Dolls anyone?) to finally shine again!

[Azkral]

16 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

 again. I feel it'll be difficult to balance her again, seeing how she retained her dual faction Gremlins status (which, given by the story, seemed unlikely), but perhaps this will be a "token" dual faction only for show, and her crew will be mostly focused on the swamp and swampfiend. Many models in there need love (i.e. rework) - gators, boars, spawn mother, silurids, adze...the only ones I feel are fairly common in any crew are Will o Wisps, but I consider them more an extension of Zoraida than a model per se. So plenty of opportunities for reworking useless models.

 

The faction is going to be Bayou, so probably more human swampfiends will join the faction, even more silurids (or get dual). I think that Zoraida is going to be THE control master it's meant to be.

[Philosfr]

I loved Lilith for her tricks & sword. I love a master that can play in the backfield and manipulate the board & her crew, but when in a pinch, completely smash face. I don't like the pure backfield support masters that melt when they get into melee, and while I enjoy the smash face masters like Misaki, they are a little boring compared to a more intellectual puzzle like Lilith. You shouldn't use Lilith as a pure beater master, she just doesn't have the durability to survive extended combat, but the combination was great. 

 

That's largely why I'm concerned with Nekima as a master. I think she's going to be all rage and beat face. No subtlety. It's the whole reason Lilith was able to triumph over Nekima in the first place (in the fluff I mean). While the cyclops were interesting, I don't have a lot of interest in Euripedes, because while playstyle is king, I still like a heavy dose of fluff with my master choice. Dreamer has gone backfield summoner per the teaser text. Titania is expressly described as being very tanky. I feel like that quintessential "melee murder glass cannon but with a load of misdirection/tricks" that attracted me to Neverborn is in danger of going missing in 3E. 

 

I'm 100% onboard for 3E and think it's definitely needed. I'm very eager for the beta and seeing what happens with the game. I doubt any of the changes will make me quit playing or reduce the fun I have with Malifaux. But I am concerned that my allegiance to the Neverborn will be sorely tested. I already play quite a bit of 10 Thunders and a little Arcanists/Outcasts on occasion, but Neverborn have been my true love since I settled on a primary faction. 

[edopersichetti]

6 hours ago, Philosfr said:

I loved Lilith for her tricks & sword. I love a master that can play in the backfield and manipulate the board & her crew, but when in a pinch, completely smash face. I don't like the pure backfield support masters that melt when they get into melee, and while I enjoy the smash face masters like Misaki, they are a little boring compared to a more intellectual puzzle like Lilith. You shouldn't use Lilith as a pure beater master, she just doesn't have the durability to survive extended combat, but the combination was great. 

 

That's largely why I'm concerned with Nekima as a master. I think she's going to be all rage and beat face. No subtlety. It's the whole reason Lilith was able to triumph over Nekima in the first place (in the fluff I mean). While the cyclops were interesting, I don't have a lot of interest in Euripedes, because while playstyle is king, I still like a heavy dose of fluff with my master choice. Dreamer has gone backfield summoner per the teaser text. Titania is expressly described as being very tanky. I feel like that quintessential "melee murder glass cannon but with a load of misdirection/tricks" that attracted me to Neverborn is in danger of going missing in 3E. 

 

I'm 100% onboard for 3E and think it's definitely needed. I'm very eager for the beta and seeing what happens with the game. I doubt any of the changes will make me quit playing or reduce the fun I have with Malifaux. But I am concerned that my allegiance to the Neverborn will be sorely tested. I already play quite a bit of 10 Thunders and a little Arcanists/Outcasts on occasion, but Neverborn have been my true love since I settled on a primary faction. 

Yep indeed - perhaps the devs felt that Lilith's playstyle was a bit too much all-in-one (she is one of the best masters out there) and so decided to simplify. I 100% expect Nekima to be just smash and beat face but few tricks, and Titania to be plenty of tricks but very little smashing...so two distinct playstyle which are going to be suitable for different situations.

Eager for the beta too!

[Vorschlag]

(dances on Liliths grave) ...

May she long rot in obscurity.

I never liked any of the Lilith Sculpts or storylines so I'm glad Nekima and Titania will lead the neverborn in a new direction.

Concerned as to where this leaves granny though, as she was my first master and the only rival I have to Lucius as my favorite.

I'm a little concerned though that this will be her last innings as she keeps referencing time running out for her in the fluff.

Biggest lose for me is certainly Collodi, we can only hope he's just been demoted due to some shift in the aether.

it would be odd though having three henchman level puppets if vasilisa and the new one survive.

Perhaps henchmen will add to your keywords given they would have their own retinue.

If the new master has a sculpt anywhere near as horrible as the cyclops I won't bother him, otherwise he has my intetest.

 

[Phinn]

11 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

I'm a little concerned though that this will be her [Zoraida's] last innings as she keeps referencing time running out for her in the fluff.

[Philosfr]

15 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Yep indeed - perhaps the devs felt that Lilith's playstyle was a bit too much all-in-one (she is one of the best masters out there) and so decided to simplify. I 100% expect Nekima to be just smash and beat face but few tricks, and Titania to be plenty of tricks but very little smashing...so two distinct playstyle which are going to be suitable for different situations.

Eager for the beta too!

I don't know that I agree that she was one of the best masters out there. Certainly nothing like Wave 4/5 Sandeep, Nicodem, Collodi, etc. But I do agree she was very flexible. She was a hybrid, not the best at fighting, but still good, not the best at supporting tricks but still good. This meant in the hands of a skilled player, she could adapt to the fight. I liked that.

I know some folks prefer the "Oh, I'm going to take the best face smasher for this strategy" and then next round "I'm going to switch to the best trickster for this strategy" kind of game play. But that wasn't me. I'd rather keep my master and adjust the crew around my master. I agree that Lilith was maybe too flexible and independent from her crew and that needed to be reigned in, but I still hold out hope that there can be a middle of the road hybrid master playstyle out there. Not just "Oh, it's this strategy, time to put this master away and pull out this other one". 

I still expect to see Lilith and Collodi back in the future. Whether it will be in Neverborn or not I'm not sure, but I think M3E Book 2 will bring us them back. Of course, they'll likely also be transformed, so I have no idea if she'll have that same playstyle, but I can always hope.

[edopersichetti]

10 hours ago, Philosfr said:

I don't know that I agree that she was one of the best masters out there. Certainly nothing like Wave 4/5 Sandeep, Nicodem, Collodi, etc. But I do agree she was very flexible. She was a hybrid, not the best at fighting, but still good, not the best at supporting tricks but still good. This meant in the hands of a skilled player, she could adapt to the fight. I liked that.

I know some folks prefer the "Oh, I'm going to take the best face smasher for this strategy" and then next round "I'm going to switch to the best trickster for this strategy" kind of game play. But that wasn't me. I'd rather keep my master and adjust the crew around my master. I agree that Lilith was maybe too flexible and independent from her crew and that needed to be reigned in, but I still hold out hope that there can be a middle of the road hybrid master playstyle out there. Not just "Oh, it's this strategy, time to put this master away and pull out this other one". 

I still expect to see Lilith and Collodi back in the future. Whether it will be in Neverborn or not I'm not sure, but I think M3E Book 2 will bring us them back. Of course, they'll likely also be transformed, so I have no idea if she'll have that same playstyle, but I can always hope.

I guess it depends on your metrics. For me she was one of the best precisely because of her flexibility: if you had to take one or two masters to a tournament (and most people do - playing at a tournament with more than 2 masters is quite intense!) you would probably take her, certainly not Collodi or others! Collodi is great but for example with his "bubble" he struggles in things like Ours where he needs to spread out, and this is just one example. Pandora is awesome but has some very hard counters if her Wp-tactics fail, and very limited mobility usually. Etc.  Whereas she could do a bit of everything, and suck at nothing.

So yeah I appreciated that flexibility too, and that's what made her the #1 pick in Nvb. Actually a similar situation occurred for Sandeep, who is first of all a great generalist. Same for Som'er and other "top" masters in faction. And I do hope (and think so) that this will stay, to a certain degree, in M3E.

I wouldn't count on them coming back anytime soon though - just like I wouldn't count on Dead Man's Hand to be a thing playable in tourneys or at an official level. These are attempts to stay attached to the past: players need to accept change and let go. Of course, you never know, maybe Lilith will eventually break free, or Ramos will come back from prison etc. but not likely and anyway not soon. Considering it'll be at least a year before M3E hits the shelves, and then probably another year or so for an eventual update (Book 2 - if such a thing will exist)...yeah I suggest to enjoy Lilith and Collodi while we can, and then just move on

[emiba]

47 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

I wouldn't count on them coming back anytime soon though

I agree, if for no other reason than;

1. Take away some popular masters and introduce others
2. Catch a metric crap ton of hate for doing so
3. Wait a year or two
4. Reintroduce popular masters and go; "There you go. You're welcome."
5. Profit

Doesn't seem logical to me. But I might be missing something.

[Jeebus]

Collodi was the master that brought me to the game in the first place in 1.5 ed. Losing him and Lynch will leave me contemplating whether its worthwhile for me to stick with the game. . . 

[-Loki-]

On 8/2/2018 at 1:28 PM, emiba said:

I agree, if for no other reason than;

1. Take away some popular masters and introduce others
2. Catch a metric crap ton of hate for doing so
3. Wait a year or two
4. Reintroduce popular masters and go; "There you go. You're welcome."
5. Profit

Doesn't seem logical to me. But I might be missing something.

They’ve all been lined up for some sort of a comeback. Lilith is in Nythera after being mortally wounded. Same place Titania was. Nicodem may be dead, but he’s inside a soul stone in Mortimers keeping. Ramos is in a Guild prison on Earth. Collodi, last we saw him, was unhappy with the quality of the puppets he was making and went in search of his creators workshop.

They probably won’t come back in their 2E/DMH incarnations but there’s interesting things that could be done with each of their returns.

[retnab]

2 hours ago, -Loki- said:

Ramos is in a Guild prison on Earth.

Plus in the Homefront campaign the Council's plan was to do a jailbreak and get him out (and I assume make him the Council's Commander).  If the Council ever does show up I'd be surprised if they don't eventually get him out of Vienna.

That said though, I don't see the DMH models coming back at all in M3E.  Like Emiba said it doesn't make a lot of sense for them as a co. to get so much flak for taking out masters only to give them back in a few years, especially with Nekima and Titania more or less taking over Lilith's tricks from the sounds of it.

[Rathnard]

1 hour ago, retnab said:

Plus in the Homefront campaign the Council's plan was to do a jailbreak and get him out (and I assume make him the Council's Commander).  If the Council ever does show up I'd be surprised if they don't eventually get him out of Vienna.

Nytemare won the Homefront Campaign, which presumably means the Council failed in their plans and won't become an Allegiance in TOS. I'm actually a little bummed about that. Not because I like Ramos (quite the opposite), but because I like the idea of the original organisation that opened the Breach coming back as a force to complete with the Guild. 

In any case, I honestly can't tell for sure whether the "dead" masters are coming back. I don't think they need to, but if they do it'd be a good opportunity for a hard reset on their rules/background. 

[Fortune]

On 7/27/2018 at 7:11 AM, Tickle Monster said:

 Also now that Nekima is a master in her own right what am I going to do for a massive beatstick model in my lists?

 

you can hire her as a beatstick in another master's crew!  

[Tickle Monster]

True.

I am going to have to get used to the idea of multiple masters. To be honest I used to salivate at the thought of running multiple masters. 

Being able to may provide some interesting combinations. 

[AngelRogue]

7 hours ago, Tickle Monster said:

True.

I am going to have to get used to the idea of multiple masters. To be honest I used to salivate at the thought of running multiple masters. 

Being able to may provide some interesting combinations. 

Titania + Nekima = win? 

[(Keenan)]

9 hours ago, AngelRogue said:

Titania + Nekima = win? 

I'm hoping for the same thing

[Fortune]

3 hours ago, (Keenan) said:

I'm hoping for the same thing

Yep. I mean... that combo DID beat Lilith all the way out of the game 🤣

[Tickle Monster]

I always thought that Titania plus Pandora (particularly summoning Pandora) would be a devastating combo.

With all the wp duels titania and her crew can put on an opponent adding misery to the mix as well as the poltergeists debuff would be super powerful.