Help wanted...

[Teluriel12]

I just spent six months of savings on a malifaux crew. Yesterday i received the email that my collodi crew was sent...today i received the message that Collodi will no longer be supported...

can someone help me out what other master can make most use out of these models without me needing to save again for a load of money?

WYR20409	Master of Puppets - Collodi Crew Box	1	0	1	£ 31.49	£ 31.49
WYR20422	Widow Weaver	1	0	1	£ 7.20	£ 7.20
WYR20423	Mysterious Effigy	1	0	1	£ 7.20	£ 7.20
WYR20710	Shadow Effigy	1	0	1	£ 7.20	£ 7.20
WYR20122	Brutal Effigy	1	0	1	£ 7.20	£ 7.20
WYR20524	Hodgepodge Effigy	1	0	1	£ 7.20	£ 7.20
WYR20225	Carrion Effigy	1	0	1	£ 7.20	£ 7.20
WYR20327	Arcane Effigy	1	0	1	£ 7.20	£ 7.20
WYR20318	Smoke and Mirrors - Colette Du Bois Crew Box	1	0	1	£ 31.49	£ 31.49
WYR20405	Beckoners	1	0	1	£ 10.79	£ 10.79
WYR20432	Changelings	1	0	1	£ 14.39	£ 14.39
WYR20430	Stitched Together	1	0	1	£ 13.50	£ 13.50
WYR20433	Bunraku	1	0	1	£ 14.39	£ 14.39
WYR20412	Doppleganger

[Justin]

Until third edition drops it's impossible to say.

Based purely on story, maybe Zoraida?

But until we see the rules for 3rd I couldn't tell you.

[lusciousmccabe]

Are these models you have or are considering picking up?

[Teluriel12]

7 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Are these models you have or are considering picking up?

These are the mosels ive bought like yesterday after saving for six months...only to learn now that they wont receive further support in 3d edition...official answer i received is that i can still use them for casual play or at the whim of the TO....yaaaaay (im really gutted about this)

[Freman]

Four of the masters I'm interested in, Collodi, Nicodem, Ramos, and Lilith, all gone.

Hoffman is taking over Ramos's role in Arcanists, but there doesn't seem to be anyone for those who liked the other three masters.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Teluriel12 said:

These are the mosels ive bought like yesterday after saving for six months...only to learn now that they wont receive further support in 3d edition...official answer i received is that i can still use them for casual play or at the whim of the TO....yaaaaay (im really gutted about this)

This probably doesn't help much, but we know nothing about the non master models. They may well be completely valid. All we have been told is that collodi will get rules, but that they may not be tournament allowed. 

We really just don't know yet. 

16 minutes ago, Freman said:

Four of the masters I'm interested in, Collodi, Nicodem, Ramos, and Lilith, all gone.

Hoffman is taking over Ramos's role in Arcanists, but there doesn't seem to be anyone for those who liked the other three masters.

Nekima and Von Stock seem to cover at least part of lilith and Nicodem. Zoradia already had a lot of overlap with Collodi.

[Aegnor]

I hope Collodi and the others are just 'dead man's hand' because of lore reason and not for 'balance' reason. If they don't have balance issue many TOs may allow them anyway. I play almost only with my friends so i would also like to have balanced games. For casual play people won't care if your master is officialy a 'dead man'.

Anyway i share the feeling. I only have 3 masters yet : collodi, lynch and ulix. So with the 3rd edition i won't be a nerverborn player at all anymore 'officially', neither a gremlin one with the name change^^'.

[katadder]

as its UK prices I assume you are a UK player and I think the majority of the TOs in the UK will allow them anyway so dont worry too much.

[Sybaris]

As stated above, just use Collodi while 2E is around, and then you'll see what's what. Safe to say, you'll still be able to play Collodi after 3E in 99% fo the time.

Theme wise, puppets might go back to the original puppet master: Zoraida. She's the one who made the effigies after all.

[melkore]

Doppelganger, Changelings, Widow Weaver and Mysterious Effigy are going to stay in the faction so you are good there as you continue to get in to the faction.  Doppel is very commonly used and I bring Changelings in almost every list one way or another.  I really like the Effigy in other lists.  4SS hard to kill mobile minion is not common in the faction.

Bunraku, Stitched and Beckoners are more of a maybe since they are dual faction while being more Lynch and Collodi models so they could drift over to 10T.

Getting into Colette with M3E might be a nice option as well if you don't dip too far into Neverborn.  Her new design sounds interesting.

There's no ETA on M3E so enjoy your models.

[Ludvig]

No one can know how m3e will play out so don't order anything else until after you've seen the new rules. Just enjoy Collodi being one of the absolutr top masters until next edition hits. Zoraida could potentially get the effigy hiring in the next edition but it's impossible to say. I am a TO (not in Britain though) and I intend to allow all the masters at my events. Even with masters eho eill remain fully legal there are really no guarantees they will keep rules like the cross faction hiring that Collodi has now.

[Teluriel12]

Thanks for the help everyone...a lot more helpful than the company that should be promoting their game...in my opinion their webstite url tells what they are all about.

looks like Zoraida might be the one.

[Sybaris]

I am certain you'll like Zoraida, at least i enjoyed her quite a bit. 

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Teluriel12 said:

Thanks for the help everyone...a lot more helpful than the company that should be promoting their game...in my opinion their webstite url tells what they are all about.

looks like Zoraida might be the one.

Honestly, play with what you have for the moment. We don't know when they expect 3rd to be released so I wouldn't just abandon what you got. I'm not a regular event runner, but most TO s I know are likely to allow dead man crews unless there is a good reason not to. Which we won't know till much nearer the release.

[Teluriel12]

19 minutes ago, Adran said:

Honestly, play with what you have for the moment. We don't know when they expect 3rd to be released so I wouldn't just abandon what you got. I'm not a regular event runner, but most TO s I know are likely to allow dead man crews unless there is a good reason not to. Which we won't know till much nearer the release.

Look, I understand that there is a lot of uncertainty and people try to keep telling me everything will be fine and maybe it will...but the frustration of my purchase a week ago wont go away. Simply by the fact that its  not a given that , after a certain period of time, the use of these masters is a certainty.  People are also guessing about when the new release will be so the full year might even turn out to be six months.

I feel that  collodi had a very distinctive feel with the puppet theme, which I dont immediatly see replaced or supported anymore in the future.

 

Ive tried several times now with Wyrd to come to some sort of resolution about my potential edge case...but they refuse to even reply.

let me put it another way:

would you, knowing what you know now ever advise a new player, like myself, to start the hobby by buying one of the dead mens hand masters?

 

I appreciate the effort of you guys to at least try to make me feel better and help me out...but the fact is that I feel gutted about the situation which is not further helped along with how Wyrd is imo stepping around any questions and concerns people like myself have.  Might be that they are not allowed to...but at this point that really doesnt matter to me.

again...thanks for the help!

 

[Kyris]

Honestly, the only thing I think we can reasonably do is hope that Wyrd either knows what they're doing and is already planning on bringing the masters back in M3E book 2, or they listen to their player base and decide to bring them back, regardless.

that said, like Aquenaton said, I would personally advise against buying anything else until we know what third edition looks like.

its just a shame so many people are trying really hard to disregard genuine complaints about removing masters, or removing factions from masters as "you're just upset", or some other such nonsense.

[melkore]

14 hours ago, Kyris said:

its just a shame so many people are trying really hard to disregard genuine complaints about removing masters, or removing factions from masters as "you're just upset", or some other such nonsense.

I have a fully painted Lynch crew I haven't tried and won't get much use once M3E drops as I'm not a 10T player. I also just painted up a Collodi crew and really like the playstyle.  I get the pain, but the models are not unusable currently or in the future.

They aren't removing them from anything but competitive play in M3E.  I can still play Collodi casually day 1 when M3E hits with the Dead Man's Hand cards.  Our TO's are open to run Dead Man's Hand tournaments to make sure everyone can still play their favorites during the transition. 

As the OP seems to be a new player, diving right into the competitive scene more than likely isn't a priority over learning the mechanics.  Collodi isn't a master you bring to every scenario anyway, so additional masters will eventually be desirable as the OP digs further into the game.  Now that they know that Collodi, Lilith and Lynch aren't viable for NB competitive, they can make better purchasing choices coming up to M3E.  Many of the models he picked up are used in other crews within current Neverborn so not all purchases were wasted. 

The only box I would be worried about is the Colette box if they aren't dipping into Arcanists and only would have bought them for the mannequin which could have been purchased in the Performers and Mannequin's box for cheaper.

 

There isn't a release date for M3E so enjoy your models in M2E.  M3E could be 2 years out from official release for all we know.  That's plenty of time the get use out of these purchases.

[Kyris]

2 hours ago, melkore said:

I have a fully painted Lynch crew I haven't tried and won't get much use once M3E drops as I'm not a 10T player. I also just painted up a Collodi crew and really like the playstyle.  I get the pain, but the models are not unusable currently or in the future.

If you, or others,  don't think it's as big of an issue as I, and others do. then thats fine. We can disagree on this. It's not like it's an observable fact of the universe. it's all about our perspective on whether or not we think this is a good move on the companies part, or if it is a bad move, how bad of a move is it exactly.

that's all fine. What I take exception to is all the people who are patronizingly dismissing everyone they disagree with, with this "oh, you're just upset", BS. the people saying things like "well, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not best for the company". They don't listen to complaints. they don't actually care about other players. they just want to defend Wyrd. Brand loyalty, I guess?

 

I mean, lets be real. despite being a NB player, the way it effects me the most is Lilith; i don't have collodi yet, and I never really used Lynch. I'm not hyper competitive at the moment even if I do plan on shooting for that goal, so Lilith isn't even that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. But thats kind of the issue...If you're effected by the change, people dismiss you as "just being upset", if you're not effected by the changes, people act like you don't have a right to disagree with the changes.

[necroon]

I'm not sure anyone should be anything more then cautious about a few sentences on a web page talking about a new edition that isn't even in Beta yet..... We don't know what these rules will be when the game launches after the edition change. We don't know when the game will even launch. We don't know how communities will choose to approach running events. We don't even know what the new competitive gameplay structure will look like. There's way too many unknowns. The only known is that someone has promised to give the Dead Man's Hand masters stat cards. Far more then one gets with most games. Talk to your local folks, see how they feel about Dead Man's Hand. Continue to post your concerns on the forums: Wyrd listens. And watches. Always watching.... Always.... 

The people at Wyrd are not monsters. They are and always have been community centered and caring (as well as very tongue  and cheek - hence the table flip URL). That's why they probably spent a lot of time figuring out a way for everyone to have active characters in the story, everyone to have the same number of Master choices at tournaments, and the story to have actual risk (Bad Things happen is a poor sales pitch when main characters die and stay dead about as much as a soap opera character on the way to Africa in a Bi-Plane). It is, after all, a character driven skirmish game.

I'm sorry you first foray through the Breach was a rough one. I can relate. But Welcome to Malifaux none the less. We are happy to have you. 

[Ludvig]

I get the frustration and think it's very natural to be frustrated when you just bought into something and learn it will not be fully supported going forward. The lack of response is likely due to them being tied up in Gencon prep. They wanted to wait with this reveal but whoever does their website forced their hand by updating with this info so they are likely swamped. If your order has not been sent yet there's hopefully a chance you'll have time to cancel it because orders are usually delayed for months after gencon.

[mirparx]

Just talking about Collodi, i know he is not anymore in the master list.... Are we sure he will not be just an enchemen? Actually we don't know anything about collody evolution of the story....

[Ludvig]

11 hours ago, mirparx said:

Just talking about Collodi, i know he is not anymore in the master list.... Are we sure he will not be just an enchemen? Actually we don't know anything about collody evolution of the story....

Demoting it seems super weird. They haven't given solid word on Collodi, might be a tricky balancing act and therefore they are saving it for a later release.

[(Keenan)]

@Teluriel12 I certainly don't want to be dismissive of anybody, as you are always entitled to your feelings, but I've seen you post several places that there will be no support for the masters in dead mans hand.  Where are you getting that information?  The only info I've seen has been that they will be balanced, they are not in the fluff at the moment, and aren't tournament legal unless the TO says they are (which I do have to side with what many people have said that they can't imagine a reason TOs won't allow them).  I do absolutely sympathize with the feelings though, and I firmly believe that Wyrd will un-deadify them in the future, as they typically have been a very customer-oriented company for the eight years I've been buying their product.

[Teluriel12]

That is my (and other peoples) assumption...Im also mainly talking about Collodi here since I can see that the other dead masters are simply replaced by other models... I really dont see a new puppet master in any of the new or old masters.  Even Zoraida is not a 100 percent candidate imo.

but I agree, untill Wyrd tries to shed some further clarity on any of this, everything is speculation.  Ive made the decision to just send my purchase back to the retailer and will probably wait until third edition is ints final stages before I and my game group willpurchase anything.

[thewrathchilde]

@Teluriel12 it would require some purchasing but a decent amount of that could be used with Dreamer..... you would need the Dreamer's box (Hide and Seek) but Doppleganger, Widow Weaver, the Stitched, and even the Bunraku and Beckoners could work well with him. Might not be the most optimal way to run Dreamer but he can buff/enable minions, Widow Weaver works well with him and so does Doppleganger for cheating initiative so you can activate Chompy, chain into Dreamer, and then pop Chompy back out before they can react.

Down the road you would want to get Lilitu and Lelu, Serena Bowman, and maybe even a Teddy but just by getting the Dreamer box you play with a number of the other things you have. 

Maybe Dreamer w/Upgrades, Doppleganger, 2 x Beckoner, 2 x Stitched, 2 x Bunraku.....or drop 1 x Stitched and add Widow Weaver.