Undying 10T models.

[WWHSD]

Minako Rei - 8 Stone Henchman with Wk6 and a stat-line that is otherwise unremarkable for her cost. If she kill an Enemy Master or Henchman she can discard two cards to summon a Wanyudo. Enemies may not push or move out of her engagement range. Enemies that declare her as a target get a condition called Dispicable that gives + flips to enemy actions that target them. She has a close attack with average damage it has a trigger that allows Minako to draw 2 cards if she kills a model with the Dispicable Condition and another trigger than allows her to cheat damage against models with Dispicable even if she is at - flips. She has a short range attack as a zero action that puts a condition on a model that causes the model to take any damage dealt to Minako by a model friendly to it. The condition can be ended by discarding 2 card which will heal Minako. She has a 1 action that allows he to discard a scrap marker to summon a full health Katashiro. It needs a 9 of tomes to meet the TN.

Wanyudo - 8 stone rare 1 Enforcer that is a spirit and a construct. It has Wk6 and an otherwise unremarkable statline. It has Armor 1, it reduces damage it takes from Burning to 0, it is Unimpeded and ignores other models during a move or push. Any models it moved through need to pass a Wk duel or get the Burning condition. It has an close attack that with an average damage track that also inflicts burning and has a trigger that lets Wanyudo push 3 inches and another trigger to inflict additional Burning. It has a 2AP action that allows it to push 6 inches, perform a 1AP attack that gets + to attack and damage, and then push another 4 inches.

Katashiro - 5 stone rare 2 minion that is an Oni and a Construct. It has an unremarkable stateline for its cost. It ignore models and terrain during pushes. When it is summoned, pushed, or placed, it gets to take a 2AP attack action. It has a weak 1AP close attack. It has a 2AP close attack with an average damage track that is Ml7. It has a 1AP action that allows it to target another model that shares has a condition that the Katashiro has. The value of the condition is reduced to 2.  The Katashiro ends the condition and applies the ended Condition to the target. It has a 1AP action that can be taken once per turn that allows it to place anywhere within 5 inches.
 

[santaclaws01]

I'm really not sure of the use of the Katashiro's condition action. The closest I can see is giving a negative condition to an enemy model.

[WWHSD]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

I'm really not sure of the use of the Katashiro's condition action. The closest I can see is giving a negative condition to an enemy model.

Waynudo uses his 2AP action to push over an enemy and a Katashiro, attacks the enemy, and then pushes back over the enemy and Katashiro. Both models now have Burning +2. The Katashiro uses its condition action to get rid of his own condition and leave the enemy with Burning +4.

There are probably some other times that it will be usefull but it’s probably a niche ability.

[santaclaws01]

7 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Waynudo uses his 2AP action to push over an enemy and a Katashiro, attacks the enemy, and then pushes back over the enemy and Katashiro. Both models now have Burning +2. The Katashiro uses its condition action to get rid of his own condition and leave the enemy with Burning +4.

There are probably some other times that it will be usefull but it’s probably a niche ability.

Yeah, with being unable to give flicker I don't see a use on friendly models outside of Mei Feng and Brewmaster for poison and Burning stuff.

[WWHSD]

10 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Yeah, with being unable to give flicker I don't see a use on friendly models outside of Mei Feng and Brewmaster for poison and Burning stuff.

Aren’t there a lot of conditions floating around in a Shenlobg crew?

[santaclaws01]

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Aren’t there a lot of conditions floating around in a Shenlobg crew?

The only stacking ones that float around would be focus and defensive, and you can't really build those up economically on a katashiro. Shenlong and maybe Sensei Yu could be building up burning or poison, but to build it on the Katashiro would just be adding an extra step in there for no reason.

[Dr Mittens]

Seems like Minako would work best in a meifeng crew, with plenty of scrap to pop out Katashiro, and if you line up a wanyudo summon mei will love the abundant burning. She would also be great with any lure/pull models as if you get off a Wanyudo summon she is premium for her cost. 

While the 2 action is neat, at 8 points wanyudo is better as a situational summon than someone to recruit for most lists, as the low damage and passible bulk just aren't enough for 8 points imo.

Katashiro are amazing, good threat range, mobility, passible bulk, situational condi removal/stacking, and absolutely bonkers with the amount of push Ten Thunders has access to. Worth fielding in any crew looking for cheap melee and especially nice when paired with Toshiro for push, fast, +attack flips.

[Tokapondora]

Depending on the range on their (2) attack the Katashiro seem great with Asami as an alternative to Yokai. Ml7 tarpits that you can plop anywhere on the field, that will actually drop flicker feed if your opponent goes through the effort to remove them? Opposed to that though... The attacks aren't exactly interesting; the extra attack on a summon or place is nice but at Im guessing 2/3/4 it's hardly a game-changer. The condition thing seems insanely niche, to the point where the biggest use I see this having is an opponent Obeying them when you're playing an Asami crew and removing your own summons/master. Like maybe I'm misunderstanding but needing a condition that another model has at least 1 of and this model has at least 2/3 of to be profitable? Its only realistic friendly use seems to be to combo with Wanyudo, but I'm guessing I'll play against Obeyers with Asami a whole lot more than I'd field these and Wanyudo, and she's already hard countered by them. 

 Definitely not units you'd ever hire, but with Asami, an Obsidian Statue or Mei I guess I wouldn't mind summoning the odd one.

Minako is a tough one. If she has a 5/6-ish defensive statline and only 's to defend against attacks? Combined with needing to be close to attack or apply that retaliate condition she seems a bit high risk low reward. Wanyudo summoning is incredibly situational, the Katashiro summons at full health is great, but does need Mei or the Oni to set her up. I guess that alone should balance her out but eh, they're not exactly units you'll always want.

And Wanyudo... Hmm... I mean I guess the basic move of (2) to push for burning » attack and trigger to push for burning/hand out burning » push again for some extra burn is gonna rack up some good damage, though with less control over when they'll die. I'm guessing he really stands or falls by the exact numbers on his card, especially how much burning and at what TN he hands it out. Can technically be summoned, but you can't ever pick Minako for a match with that as a reasonably expected outcome. 

[santaclaws01]

20 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

Depending on the range on their (2) attack the Katashiro seem great with Asami as an alternative to Yokai. Ml7 tarpits that you can plop anywhere on the field, that will actually drop flicker feed if your opponent goes through the effort to remove them? Opposed to that though... The attacks aren't exactly interesting; the extra attack on a summon or place is nice but at Im guessing 2/3/4 it's hardly a game-changer. The condition thing seems insanely niche, to the point where the biggest use I see this having is an opponent Obeying them when you're playing an Asami crew and removing your own summons/master. Like maybe I'm misunderstanding but needing a condition that another model has at least 1 of and this model has at least 2/3 of to be profitable? Its only realistic friendly use seems to be to combo with Wanyudo, but I'm guessing I'll play against Obeyers with Asami a whole lot more than I'd field these and Wanyudo, and she's already hard countered by them. 

 Definitely not units you'd ever hire, but with Asami, an Obsidian Statue or Mei I guess I wouldn't mind summoning the odd one.

Minako is a tough one. If she has a 5/6-ish defensive statline and only 's to defend against attacks? Combined with needing to be close to attack or apply that retaliate condition she seems a bit high risk low reward. Wanyudo summoning is incredibly situational, the Katashiro summons at full health is great, but does need Mei or the Oni to set her up. I guess that alone should balance her out but eh, they're not exactly units you'll always want.

And Wanyudo... Hmm... I mean I guess the basic move of (2) to push for burning » attack and trigger to push for burning/hand out burning » push again for some extra burn is gonna rack up some good damage, though with less control over when they'll die. I'm guessing he really stands or falls by the exact numbers on his card, especially how much burning and at what TN he hands it out. Can technically be summoned, but you can't ever pick Minako for a match with that as a reasonably expected outcome. 

It's actually 2/4/5, not 2/3/4, and it can be used as a disengaging strike.

Minako's condition is 6" and a (0), so not really "close" range I'd say. If you're feeling ballsy in a Lynch crew or any crew with Ama, you could put the condition on an important model, then obey some heavy hitter to attack Minako and get some free damage on them, then just heal Minako back up because it's 10T.

At best(not counting RJ) the Wanyudo can do 9 damage between it's attack's damage and burning with it's (2) action, which isn't bad, 7-6 damage depending on which trigger you get and if they pass the Wk duels. The Wk duel will only need a 6-7 on average.

[Tokapondora]

And the range on that attack? Because it's that Ml7 engagement zone you really want to summon them for. 

[whodares]

Perhaps I've misunderstood, but can't you use the Katashiro to give Flicker to your own summons? Asami summons Katashiro and it uses his (2) action on the summoning for a quick strike. Next activation is for Katashiro (slow) and it uses his (1) action on a friendly Oni with Flicker to donate his own Flicker to the friendly Oni. End situation will be a scheme marker drop from Asami if she has the upgrade, scheme marker drop from Emissary with Oni Conflux, damage on an enemy model and 1 of your Oni gains 1-2 Flicker extra. I'd say this is great if you have Obsidian Oni/Jorogumo out and need a quick refill on it.

[Jinn]

@whodares The action requires you to remove the condition from the Katashiro, and if it is still in play applies it to the other model. If this restriction wasn't present you could put some flicker on your opponents master and really ruin their day.

[whodares]

10 minutes ago, Jinn said:

@whodares The action requires you to remove the condition from the Katashiro, and if it is still in play applies it to the other model. If this restriction wasn't present you could put some flicker on your opponents master and really ruin their day.

Thanks for the update. This really limits it's usability and makes it a very niche ability. I'm not very impressed by any of these models to be honest.

Despicable seems like Fragile except Fragile is better as it gives + on damage while Despicable gives + on actions (and thus not damage). The other condition seems more trolly than actually usable and reminds me of Zoraida's Doll. Condition removal is easy to come by in this game, so you'll be trading AP for AP. Not sure if that's worth a henchman AP though. Katashiro summon is limited by needing scrap markers, which already force her going to Mei Feng or possible Yan Lo with Komainu.

Wanyudo seems meh. His damage track seems nice from what I've read here, but I don't like delaying kills. We have other models who can do thesame damage instantly instead of end-of-Turn. Burning also has counterplay in the form of condition removal. He does seem to be mobile, which is a positive he has going for him. I do doubt he'll see the table.

Katashiro is not what I expected when I read about Oni summons. I wasn't aware that you can use a (2) as disengaging strike, so TIL. That's pretty much what they have going for them though. It's a tough call deciding between 1 Ml 7 on place vs 2 Ml 5 +flips with several useful triggers. They also don't seem to have the extra Flicker Yokai have (or it isn't written here) which means you'll already be spending significant resources just getting them to a point of being useful. The condition is very niche and Yokai just seem to be better at dealing damage. I'll might form a different opinion on them when I have had time to read their cards, but so far I'm not impressed. Even with the staying restriction removed you couldnt put Flicker on the opponent's master though as the targetted model needs to have the condition as well before it's transferred. At least that's how I'm reading it here.

 

Do not I haven't updated the app yet and haven't read the cards there. I'm basing this on the posts above.

[Jinn]

5 minutes ago, whodares said:

Even with the staying restriction removed you couldnt put Flicker on the opponent's master though as the targetted model needs to have the condition as well before it's transferred. At least that's how I'm reading it here.

It could be interpreted either way honestly. The wording of that part of the ability is "Choose a Condition with a value affecting this model and a target model in range." which could be interpreted as 'Choose a Condition with a value affecting this model and then choose a target model in range' or it could be 'choose a condition affecting this model and affecting a target model in range'. The second interpretation is useless as an action so I'm inclined to interpret it in the first way just as common sense.

Katashiro are great for Asami because they are constructs and so drop scrap. Also, summoning them with Minako Rei in a Shenlong crew would allow for peasants to charge the Katashiro and push it twice, allowing it to take two Ml7 2/4/5 attacks which is pretty decent. Their push synergy should go nicely with Shenlong crews I think.

Wanyudo almost seems like it'll just be useful for when Minako kills a henchmen or master.

[whodares]

22 minutes ago, Jinn said:

It could be interpreted either way honestly. The wording of that part of the ability is "Choose a Condition with a value affecting this model and a target model in range." which could be interpreted as 'Choose a Condition with a value affecting this model and then choose a target model in range' or it could be 'choose a condition affecting this model and affecting a target model in range'. The second interpretation is useless as an action so I'm inclined to interpret it in the first way just as common sense.

I see what you mean, but then the wording should be completely different. There would be no specific need to mention target in range at the first sentence as you'll have to target a model anyway to use the Action. I believe the condition needs to be on both models or they could scrap half the action text.

 

24 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Katashiro are great for Asami because they are constructs and so drop scrap. Also, summoning them with Minako Rei in a Shenlong crew would allow for peasants to charge the Katashiro and push it twice, allowing it to take two Ml7 2/4/5 attacks which is pretty decent. Their push synergy should go nicely with Shenlong crews I think.

Wanyudo almost seems like it'll just be useful for when Minako kills a henchmen or master.

For Asami I don't think they are great. Perhaps you might have forgetton that sacrificed models don't drop scrap/corpse markers. Summoning them with Minako already requires a scrap marker and Asami probably has them sacrificed due to Flicker restriction.

Wanyudo summoning seems very niche and very unreliable. I wouldn't count on it.

[bedjy]

It seems like a katashiro will be huge with Shenlong : (0) focus, (1) focus, (1) give 2 focus to shenlong ,then shenlong gives push+fast to 3 models without his peasants. And we'll still be able to push the katashiro to get that free Ml 7 atk

[Tokapondora]

@whodaresAsami is like the one master where they are great. They're a tarpit in a bottle, plopping into existence out of nowhere, tying up models with Ml7 and doing a Ml7 2/4/5 attack, and in their activation they can do another place within 5" for another attack and more tarpitting. And if your opponent does kill them due to them being nuisances, you have scrap on the floor for more summons. 

As for the condition-action, I suppose I need to read this in full to fully grasp it. I took it as, take a condition affecting you and another target, then lower the other target's condition to 2, then end the condition on you and apply it to the target. Dunno, I struggle to think of things to  do with this (things that will actually happen in a game, I'm sure we can dream scenario away).

[WWHSD]

5 hours ago, Jinn said:

It could be interpreted either way honestly. The wording of that part of the ability is "Choose a Condition with a value affecting this model and a target model in range." which could be interpreted as 'Choose a Condition with a value affecting this model and then choose a target model in range' or it could be 'choose a condition affecting this model and affecting a target model in range'. The second interpretation is useless as an action so I'm inclined to interpret it in the first way just as common sense.

It seems like there would be an opposed duel if the Katashiro was allowed to transfer any condition that it had to an enemy that doesn't already have the condition. 

[OneLittleThunder]

Asami with Borrowed Time can give the Katashiro some extra lifespan, and the fact that they attack immediately when they are summoned (in addition to every time they are pushed or placed) seems like they give a lot of value even if they only live for one 1 AP turn.

For Minako, I'm really struck by her A Matter of Honor ability: "Enemy models may not move or push out of this model's engagement range." Period, end of ability. Unless the enemy has access to Place abilities - which are pretty rare - this makes her an unavoidable tarpit for keeping the enemy where you want them. The enemy can still push Minako herself, of course - or kill her - but it will limit a lot of the usual "get out of jail free" abilities that models use to disengage. Have a Charm Warder near her for Df and Wp buffs, and she is going to really ruin someone's mobility.

[WWHSD]

42 minutes ago, OneLittleThunder said:

For Minako, I'm really struck by her A Matter of Honor ability: "Enemy models may not move or push out of this model's engagement range." Period, end of ability. Unless the enemy has access to Place abilities - which are pretty rare - this makes her an unavoidable tarpit for keeping the enemy where you want them. The enemy can still push Minako herself, of course - or kill her - but it will limit a lot of the usual "get out of jail free" abilities that models use to disengage. Have a Charm Warder near her for Df and Wp buffs, and she is going to really ruin someone's mobility.

I think it might be the combo of that ability and Kharmic Debt will be what gets her on to the table. It puts the enemy model in a situation where it can't move out of engagement but is giving enemies + flips against it if it tries to kill Minako. She will probably need some support to be able to lock up models that are very killy.

It will definitely make locking down scheme runners like Necropunks much easier.  

 

[Jesy Blue]

The first thing that upsets me is that Wanyudo is not an Oni. 

The second thing that upsets me is that Katashiro are Rare 2!  I would spam hire and summon the crap out of these!  Rite of Strength with the Shadow Emmisary, Wings of Wind on Asami, Sensei Yu and all of their pushes.... before Katashiro even activated, would want to kill that thing, and when you do it would leave a scrap marker to summon more stuff longer.  This will be my new baby!

[OneLittleThunder]

5 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Rite of Strength with the Shadow Emmisary, Wings of Wind on Asami, Sensei Yu and all of their pushes.... before Katashiro even activated, would want to kill that thing, and when you do it would leave a scrap marker to summon more stuff longer.

Well, Rite of Strength would need it to have an Upgrade, but you're right, there are still plenty of pushes available. A Ml 7 2/4/5 attack may not be worth spending ALL your pushes on, but I feel like they'll definitely get some work done. Competing with the excellent Yokai as Asami's 5ss summon is tough, but there are definitely cases where I'd prefer these (and vice versa).

[santaclaws01]

7 hours ago, Jinn said:

It could be interpreted either way honestly. The wording of that part of the ability is "Choose a Condition with a value affecting this model and a target model in range." which could be interpreted as 'Choose a Condition with a value affecting this model and then choose a target model in range' or it could be 'choose a condition affecting this model and affecting a target model in range'. The second interpretation is useless as an action so I'm inclined to interpret it in the first way just as common sense.

Katashiro are great for Asami because they are constructs and so drop scrap. Also, summoning them with Minako Rei in a Shenlong crew would allow for peasants to charge the Katashiro and push it twice, allowing it to take two Ml7 2/4/5 attacks which is pretty decent. Their push synergy should go nicely with Shenlong crews I think.

Wanyudo almost seems like it'll just be useful for when Minako kills a henchmen or master.

It's not ambiguous. Both models need to have the condition.

 

 

55 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I think it might be the combo of that ability and Kharmic Debt will be what gets her on to the table. It puts the enemy model in a situation where it can't move out of engagement but is giving enemies + flips against it if it tries to kill Minako. She will probably need some support to be able to lock up models that are very killy.

It will definitely make locking down scheme runners like Necropunks much easier.  

 

I don't think she'll need that much help against killy models. Get them engaged with her, give them Kharmic Debt, and then they have to kill themselves to kill her. And at 9 wds she is able to bully a good amount of models into just standing there looking at her because even if they can kill her without killing themself they'll only be left with a few wds which leaves them open to get killed by some other model of yours, which is more likely to happen thanks to Despicable. This is all assuming Minako herself didn't/couldn't hit the model on the same turn she applied Kharmic Debt.

[WWHSD]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

It's not ambiguous. Both models need to have the condition.

 

 

I don't think she'll need that much help against killy models. Get them engaged with her, give them Kharmic Debt, and then they have to kill themselves to kill her. And at 9 wds she is able to bully a good amount of models into just standing there looking at her because even if they can kill her without killing themself they'll only be left with a few wds which leaves them open to get killed by some other model of yours, which is more likely to happen thanks to Despicable. This is all assuming Minako herself didn't/couldn't hit the model on the same turn she applied Kharmic Debt.

If I’ve got a killy model tied up by Minako and she has Kharmic Ties on one of my models, discarding two cards to end the condition before attacking seems like a no brainer.

The Dispicable condition ends once it has been used against an action and it doesn’t stack. It’s a handy condition but it only affects a single attack.

[whodares]

I've had some time to read the cards now and I thought I'd post my current opinion on the new models.

 

Minako Rei

I don't really see her being used in crews as she suffers from thesame syndrome as Sun Quiang. She's not bad, but there are better models in the price range. She can do a couple of things such as tarpitting and summoning, but usually those options have better models for them.

• Waynado summoning is unreliable and a gimmick at best. Even then it costs 2 cards to actually summon him. By the time he gets summoned the game is probably already past a point where he can make a lot of impact.
• No move/push out of her engagement range is a good tarpit ability. It really forces the opponent to deal with her OR use some other trick.
• Despicable is cool, but only works on Actions. Damage flips are outside of the scope and it only works for a single action as well. Even if you fail the Action, the condition still gets removed. The mechanic seems cool, but can be largely bypassed.
• Her attack is decent and follows a standard Thunders track. The Triggers are unreliable and even then not really that great.
• Kharmic Ties seems like a cool mechanic that can heal/give card advantage. The downside is that it's a condition, which is easily removed nowadays. If she can't apply the condition, her potential drops immensely
• Katashiro summon seems to be rather difficult/annoying to get off due to needing a scrap marker. Thunders in general doesn't really have that many ways of getting these, so you'll probably need Mei Feng/Asami/Yan Lo with Komainu or a lucky opponent for them.

 

Wanyudo

I like the design of the model. Doing damage on the move is always good and he is hard to pin down thanks to his mobility. His damage potential is good for his cost, but his base stats are low. He can be summoned by Minako Rei, but I wouldn't count on that happening often. I'm not sure if I would hire this guy/wheel as I don't like being dependant on conditions for a lot of my damage. Condition removal is rather easy to come by after all.

• Armor +1 and no damage from Burning upo his survivability by a decent margin. His low base stats mean he'll be getting hit a lot, but at least he takes less damage I guess?
• Unimpeded and Trample give him an insane amount of leeway when it comes to mobility. This is pretty much his theme, he rolls where he pleases and over who he pleases.
• By the way, he burns people or cards he runs over. What's not to like about this.
• His attack is decent and follows a standard Thunders track with built-in burning. The triggers give him mobility or more burning, which are both decent to have.
• His (2) action is where he shines. It reminds me of a certain Guild Marshal on a horse who does pretty much thesame thing, but then from range. If you get the Trigger right, you could potentially move further than doing a double walk while still doing a decent amount of damage.

 

Katashiro

These guys are in direct summoning competition with Yokai. While they are more tarpitty thanks to their extra Wound and Ml7 attack, I'm rather undecided. Their damage potential is rather low, unless you start pumping in AP of other models. At that point in time you need to decide which AP is actually more valuable and these guys are rather disappointing at that. They are constructs, which mean they drop scrap when they die. This is great for Minako's summoning as she can replenish them that way. Asami will probably never get the scrap due to the Flicker summoning mechanic. Besides some niche tarpit summon or some push-based list I doubt we'll be seeing these guys a lot.

• Ignoring models and terrain during pushes helps their second Ability where they deal can attack when they get summoned, pushed or placed. Almost completely negates any weaknesses a push can have.
• First attack is weak and lame.
• (2) Ap action combo's well with the abilities and push strats, but the damage track is standard. You'll probably hit with this attack, but don't expect to hit hard. No Triggers also don't help. I feel Yokai burning Flicker for that double + will give much better results when it comes to damage.
• The condition action is gimmicky and obviously meant to tie in with Wanyudo. Besides that I don't really see that much of a use for it due to both models needing thesame condition with a counter on it. I could be terribly wrong here, but I can't seem to find that many use-cases for it. Perhaps an awesome counter against Zoraida's Doll if she hems the Katashiro?
• 5" place is great for scheming. Doesn't have a TN to hit and doesn't cost Flicker unlike the Yokai's (0). Yokai do generate a free AP which allow them to scheme more efficiently.

 

 

My current conclusion: Probably never going to use Minako. Wanyudo could be a niche tech in condition crews or possibly Shenlong crews to stack Burning early on Shenlong. Katashiro are very situational summons generally outshined by Yokai or 1 cost higher Obsidian Oni. Katashiro can be hired in push-heavy lists, but you probably would want to push other things for more value.

 

 

Discuss on how I'm wrong about all of this