Undying 10T models.

[Clockwork_Fish]

Minako seems like she might be well suited to hunt down slippery scheme runners like Torakage, Raphael, Merris, or even Cassandra who rely on pushes and movement tricks to get out of combat.  Most of whom have low willpower and would be vulnerable to her 0-action.

[WWHSD]

2 hours ago, whodares said:

I've had some time to read the cards now and I thought I'd post my current opinion on the new models.

 

Minako Rei

I don't really see her being used in crews as she suffers from thesame syndrome as Sun Quiang. She's not bad, but there are better models in the price range. She can do a couple of things such as tarpitting and summoning, but usually those options have better models for them.

• Waynado summoning is unreliable and a gimmick at best. Even then it costs 2 cards to actually summon him. By the time he gets summoned the game is probably already past a point where he can make a lot of impact.
• No move/push out of her engagement range is a good tarpit ability. It really forces the opponent to deal with her OR use some other trick.
• Despicable is cool, but only works on Actions. Damage flips are outside of the scope and it only works for a single action as well. Even if you fail the Action, the condition still gets removed. The mechanic seems cool, but can be largely bypassed.
• Her attack is decent and follows a standard Thunders track. The Triggers are unreliable and even then not really that great.
• Kharmic Ties seems like a cool mechanic that can heal/give card advantage. The downside is that it's a condition, which is easily removed nowadays. If she can't apply the condition, her potential drops immensely
• Katashiro summon seems to be rather difficult/annoying to get off due to needing a scrap marker. Thunders in general doesn't really have that many ways of getting these, so you'll probably need Mei Feng/Asami/Yan Lo with Komainu or a lucky opponent for them.

 

Wanyudo

I like the design of the model. Doing damage on the move is always good and he is hard to pin down thanks to his mobility. His damage potential is good for his cost, but his base stats are low. He can be summoned by Minako Rei, but I wouldn't count on that happening often. I'm not sure if I would hire this guy/wheel as I don't like being dependant on conditions for a lot of my damage. Condition removal is rather easy to come by after all.

• Armor +1 and no damage from Burning upo his survivability by a decent margin. His low base stats mean he'll be getting hit a lot, but at least he takes less damage I guess?
• Unimpeded and Trample give him an insane amount of leeway when it comes to mobility. This is pretty much his theme, he rolls where he pleases and over who he pleases.
• By the way, he burns people or cards he runs over. What's not to like about this.
• His attack is decent and follows a standard Thunders track with built-in burning. The triggers give him mobility or more burning, which are both decent to have.
• His (2) action is where he shines. It reminds me of a certain Guild Marshal on a horse who does pretty much thesame thing, but then from range. If you get the Trigger right, you could potentially move further than doing a double walk while still doing a decent amount of damage.

 

Katashiro

These guys are in direct summoning competition with Yokai. While they are more tarpitty thanks to their extra Wound and Ml7 attack, I'm rather undecided. Their damage potential is rather low, unless you start pumping in AP of other models. At that point in time you need to decide which AP is actually more valuable and these guys are rather disappointing at that. They are constructs, which mean they drop scrap when they die. This is great for Minako's summoning as she can replenish them that way. Asami will probably never get the scrap due to the Flicker summoning mechanic. Besides some niche tarpit summon or some push-based list I doubt we'll be seeing these guys a lot.

• Ignoring models and terrain during pushes helps their second Ability where they deal can attack when they get summoned, pushed or placed. Almost completely negates any weaknesses a push can have.
• First attack is weak and lame.
• (2) Ap action combo's well with the abilities and push strats, but the damage track is standard. You'll probably hit with this attack, but don't expect to hit hard. No Triggers also don't help. I feel Yokai burning Flicker for that double + will give much better results when it comes to damage.
• The condition action is gimmicky and obviously meant to tie in with Wanyudo. Besides that I don't really see that much of a use for it due to both models needing thesame condition with a counter on it. I could be terribly wrong here, but I can't seem to find that many use-cases for it. Perhaps an awesome counter against Zoraida's Doll if she hems the Katashiro?
• 5" place is great for scheming. Doesn't have a TN to hit and doesn't cost Flicker unlike the Yokai's (0). Yokai do generate a free AP which allow them to scheme more efficiently.

 

 

My current conclusion: Probably never going to use Minako. Wanyudo could be a niche tech in condition crews or possibly Shenlong crews to stack Burning early on Shenlong. Katashiro are very situational summons generally outshined by Yokai or 1 cost higher Obsidian Oni. Katashiro can be hired in push-heavy lists, but you probably would want to push other things for more value.

 

 

Discuss on how I'm wrong about all of this  

I think 10 Thunders actually has some nice options for generating scrap markers with the Obisdian Oni, Obsidian Statue, or the Mechanical Porkchop and Emberling if you are playing Mei Feng.

I think Katashiro probably beat out Yokai for Asami summons when she isn’t getting extra Flicker from markers when the model is being summoned to attack higher Df targets.

 

The Katashiro gets one Ml 7 attack when it is summoned and then a second one when it uses its 5 inch place during it’s activation. I think the only time a Katashiro ever uses it’s 1AP attack is after it has already placed and made it’s 2AP attack and it still has an AP to spare or if some ability effect allows it to take a 1AP action (and it has already used it’s place or is limited to attack actions).

[WWHSD]

I guess a pair of Tengu and a Katashiro could get Regen +4 on a model. Seems like a lot of work (3 activations, 5 AP, 4x6+ cards, and a 7+) to heal 4 Wds on a model.

 

Edit: Never mind, the two Tengus can do it without the Karashiro. I thought they could only use their regen buff on a target once per turn. I was getting it confused with Asami’s totem’s ability that increases the valuenof a condition.

[whodares]

8 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I think 10 Thunders actually has some nice options for generating scrap markers with the Obisdian Oni, Obsidian Statue, or the Mechanical Porkchop and Emberling if you are playing Mei Feng.

I think Katashiro probably beat out Yokai for Asami summons when she isn’t getting extra Flicker from markers when the model is being summoned to attack higher Df targets.

 

The Katashiro gets one Ml 7 attack when it is summoned and then a second one when it uses its 5 inch place during it’s activation. I think the only time a Katashiro ever uses it’s 1AP attack is after it has already placed and made it’s 2AP attack and it still has an AP to spare or if some ability effect allows it to take a 1AP action (and it has already used it’s place or is limited to attack actions).

I think I mentioned Mei Feng as a possibility there, but thanks for expanding on it. Obsidian Oni could work with Asami, but I generally don't have a lot of room for card-hungry extra's with her. Statue is something I'm undecided on and could work in Yan Lo, Mei Feng or Shenlong lists, but besides that ... Mechanical Porkchop and Emberling are Mei Feng only, so you see the recurring theme here.

 

I'll agree with you Katashiro might have an edge over Yokai when attacking high Df targets. Luckily there aren't that many Df 7+ models in the game, which brings me back to Katashiro being a niche summon. In general Yokai are very much superior to Katashiro. The only exceptions are things you'll barely encounter and/or have better options for fixing. I'll probably never summon more than 1 Katashiro in a game, if I actually already summon any.

[fanteegi]

On 7/26/2018 at 2:53 AM, WWHSD said:

Waynudo uses his 2AP action to push over an enemy and a Katashiro, attacks the enemy, and then pushes back over the enemy and Katashiro. Both models now have Burning +2. The Katashiro uses its condition action to get rid of his own condition and leave the enemy with Burning +4.

There are probably some other times that it will be usefull but it’s probably a niche ability.

Surely if it's an oni, summoned in you give the enemy model flicker? They will then flicker out end of turn 

[whodares]

42 minutes ago, fanteegi said:

Surely if it's an oni, summoned in you give the enemy model flicker? They will then flicker out end of turn 

Doesn't work that way. Both Katashiro and the targetted model must have the condition.

[Da Git]

2 hours ago, fanteegi said:

Surely if it's an oni, summoned in you give the enemy model flicker? They will then flicker out end of turn 

It's been specifically written so you can't do that. You remove the condition, then if you're still in play, you pass it to the target.

2 hours ago, whodares said:

Doesn't work that way. Both Katashiro and the targetted model must have the condition.

That's debatable.  It can be read both ways and because of the Flicker example above, I'd say it works the other way, otherwise why would you help out the enemy and give them flicker? Although I guess you may want to give Flicker to one of your models...  I've always read it the other way...

[Tokapondora]

I'd assume it's so you can't just have these pump up the flicker on your own units, like give Asami+3 or something just because you managed to summon one in a nice position. Never really imagined it as choosing a condition on yourself only and a target to put it on. A bit poorly worded if it's that.

Might be nice to get some clarification on that.

[whodares]

40 minutes ago, Da Git said:

That's debatable.  It can be read both ways and because of the Flicker example above, I'd say it works the other way, otherwise why would you help out the enemy and give them flicker? Although I guess you may want to give Flicker to one of your models...  I've always read it the other way...

If they meant it any other way, they wouldn't write it like this. If they were to go by the other description, it would be written something like this:

Target any model in range. Choose a condition with a value affecting this model.

or

Choose a condition with a value affecting this model, then target any model in range.

 

That seems to be clearer and makes more sense than how you're interpreting the writing right now.

Don't get me wrong here, I completely understand where you are coming from and the writing itself is open to interpretation. I hope we'll get some official answer on this.

Perhaps @Mason could help us out here?

[Jinn]

Having a Katashiro focus and then teleport for a place within 5",  to attack and damage Ml7 2/4/5 attack sounds pretty great. The high base combined with focus means you're probably going to be able to cheat for a consistent 4 or 5 damage where you need it. I think balancing Katashiro around being worse all around killy models than Yokai, but better against higher Df, having the advantage of dropping scrap for Asami, and having synergy with pushes is a good approach.

[Da Git]

1 minute ago, Jinn said:

Having a Katashiro focus and then teleport for a place within 5",  to attack and damage Ml7 2/4/5 attack sounds pretty great. The high base combined with focus means you're probably going to be able to cheat for a consistent 4 or 5 damage where you need it. I think balancing Katashiro around being worse all around killy models than Yokai, but better against higher Df, having the advantage of dropping scrap for Asami, and having synergy with pushes is a good approach.

That seems a very solid use for them!

This seems fun! Katashiro + Toshiro with Command the Graves. Toshiro uses War Fan with Trigger to push + Fast the Katashiro 1" from enemy then Katakshiro attacks after Push.  Katashiro activates, (1) places & attacks, then (2) attacks. All with  to attack if within 6" of Toshiro. Living the dream! Toshiro can then re-summon the Katashiro when it's killed.

[whodares]

17 minutes ago, Da Git said:

That seems a very solid use for them!

This seems fun! Katashiro + Toshiro with Command the Graves. Toshiro uses War Fan with Trigger to push + Fast the Katashiro 1" from enemy then Katakshiro attacks after Push.  Katashiro activates, (1) places & attacks, then (2) attacks. All with  to attack if within 6" of Toshiro. Living the dream! Toshiro can then re-summon the Katashiro when it's killed.

I think you mean he can summon a Komainu from the scrap they drop, right?

Seems like a decent combo, but requires quite a hefty investment. I'm going to be playing some more Mei Feng since I don't have her box for all that long and I'll be trying out several combinations to see what happens. I think @Jinn is right in them being balanced for a Focus + place which can deal a very nice amount of damage for a minimum of card investment at a reliable rate.

While I still think Yokai are better offensively, these guys can probably be used as a sort of budget Yokai when it comes to card investment which is also something nice to consider.

[Da Git]

3 minutes ago, whodares said:

I think you mean he can summon a Komainu from the scrap they drop, right?

 

Oops, yeah... that ^

[whodares]

Currently trying to figure out what all our in-faction scrap generating options are. It's always nice to have a list of options available for Ten Thunders.

With  Mei Feng

• Emberling
• Emissary Conflux

 

General

• Obsidian Oni with a Trigger
• Obsidian Statue after taking damage from an enemy model

 

Can't really think of any others at the top of my head right now.

[Jesy Blue]

You can add Mechanical Porkchop to the Mei Feng list.

[whodares]

8 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

You can add Mechanical Porkchop to the MeI Feng list.

Porkchop is out of faction, so I'm not including him in an in-faction list. With M3E on the horizon I doubt many people will do cross-factions buys right now.

[Jesy Blue]

Weird, as listing the stuff you can only take on a Mei Feng list doesn't help the faction as a whole.

But, it's your list; make it as you see fit.

I hope in 3rd they make Clockwork Traps either count as Scrap Markers or be constructs so they drop Scrap when they die... they would be a whole lot more useful to the faction as a whole.

 

[whodares]

I don't think you understand what I mean with an in-faction list. I'm looking for all Ten Thunders models which help with generating scrap. I made a specific mention for Mei Feng as her totem is included in her box and the conflux is part of the Emissary, yet both those options only work with her.

Porkchop on the other hand is actually Gremlin and in a completely seperate box. This means you need to make an additional out-of-faction purchase if you want to use Porkchop and those are the models I would like to avoid.

[Tokapondora]

You may like to avoid them but maybe others don't. Unless this is just for yourself listing all the units that can generate scrap in a TT crew would be nifty.

[whodares]

It's hard getting answers to the actual question. Feel free to make a list with all the options you see fit, but the restrictions on my list are there for a reason.

[Rurouni Benshin]

So out of curiosity, has anyone put these to practice yet?

Also, while the Encounter Book says that they're allowed for regular ME2 play, are these models "tournament legal"?

Thanks!

[Nikodemus]

15 minutes ago, Rurouni Benshin said:

Also, while the Encounter Book says that they're allowed for regular ME2 play, are these models "tournament legal"?

I can't think of a single reason why they wouldn't be.

[Rurouni Benshin]

13 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

I can't think of a single reason why they wouldn't be.

I was under the impression that models out of the Story Encounter boxes may not be, since they're not in the core books.  But thanks for clarifying!

[Jesy Blue]

University of Transmortis, Brotherhood of the Rat, and Creative Taxidermy were all storyline boxes; I have no doubt that if there is another book before M3E they'll be in it.

[WWHSD]

13 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

University of Transmortis, Brotherhood of the Rat, and Creative Taxidermy were all storyline boxes; I have no doubt that if there is another book before M3E they'll be in it.

I would have had my money on a new book too but it seems like it would be a bit of a DOA release with third edition already announced.