Nicodemus M3E?

[scottb]

Has Nicodemus disappeared in the third edition of Malifaux? Just saw the email about the changes and went looking for Masters I play, and others I know...can't find Nicodemus.

[Nikodemus]

All "absent" masters will get cards on release, but won't be tournament legal by default (TO's discretion trumps as always). This was mentioned in the announcement thread somewhere.

[Anung Un Rama]

This just sucks. He is my main master and the reason I got in Malifaux. I played him before he became the flavour of the month and have been playing him since the cuddle. If the reason is they plan to release a new version of Nico as a liche lord seeing as he is now dead then  I can accept that 😁

[lusciousmccabe]

You could probably just use your existing Nikodem as a proxy for Von Shtook, or whatever he's called. Doubt it will have much more of an impact on gameplay than a lot of the changes you see between editions. 

[Clockwork_Fish]

23 hours ago, Old Major said:

This just sucks. He is my main master and the reason I got in Malifaux. I played him before he became the flavour of the month and have been playing him since the cuddle. If the reason is they plan to release a new version of Nico as a liche lord seeing as he is now dead then  I can accept that 😁

He did get his soul stuck in a soul stone.  And he’s a necromancer.  I can see some stupid Domador taking the stone out of the Guild vault and trying to make a magic ring out of him, only to get possessed.  The result being a somewhat frailer version of Nico who drops a “one ring” marker when he dies, only to come back around if someone interacts with it.  😃

[Freman]

^That would actually be pretty good.

[Gloomy]

I think they should make Nico summonable, just to really rub salt in the wound

[Dragoon130]

Just came here to put my vote in for Sauron Nico.

[solkan]

I swear by the time 3rd comes out, I’ll become a Henchman just to run Dead Mans Hand tournaments.    And line up the pester squad for Adepticon’s events to allow it as well.

 

[Clement]

Out of curiosity, has anyone actually heard anyone say "I wouldn't allow Dead Man's Hand in my tournaments" anywhere?   So far the forums and FB all seem to say 2 things, both at very high volume back and forth...

Quote

Dead Man's Hand is as good as banned.  No one will allow them in tournaments because they're 'optional'

Quote

Of course I'd allow Dead Man's Hand in *my* events, it's only fair!

 

[WWHSD]

12 minutes ago, Clement said:

Out of curiosity, has anyone actually heard anyone say "I wouldn't allow Dead Man's Hand in my tournaments" anywhere?   So far the forums and FB all seem to say 2 things, both at very high volume back and forth...

 

I think that almost everyone that runs tournaments in the South Western US has said they’d allow DMH masters at their tournaments based on what is known so far.

As far as I’ve seen, the people declaring that DMH models are as good as removed aren’t the people that organize tournaments.

What I actually think will happen is that DMH models will be permitted at almost every tournament for awhile after M3E but as time progresses more tournament will stop allowing it as the demand for doing so from players fades. It will become like the painting requirements in Gaining Grounds with tournament organizers doing what is popular with players in their area.

[Adran]

10 minutes ago, aquenaton said:

 

 

Also, most people are worried about the lack of future releases for those models, like if Nicodem got a keyword no model in the future would get (or no model got at all).

I agree that some people are worried about this, but I think it's a very long term worry. Even if 3rd hits before next gen con, you are probably looking at 2 years from now before some "supported" keywords get any new models. 

I'm not saying it's an invalid concern, but in practical terms I think wyrd have done a good job to not invalidate dmh masters. Individual collections, we don't know, and until we get hiring rules we won't know how bad anyone is actually hit. 

Uncertainty is not nice, but we probably have to cope with it, and I'm sure that in most cases the worst will not happen, but that isn't going to stop people worrying about it. 

[lusciousmccabe]

Think it's about as close to an invalid complaint as any of them.

Has Jacob Lynch gotten any additions to his core crew since v1.5? Don't think so.
Is he as good as banned? Eh, no.

I think Wyrd (and the community) have gone out of their way to cushion the blow of the roster change for people. If you're raising concerns that a master in Dead Man's Hand might not get future releases when we have absolutely no idea if that's the case, or if they'll even need them then I think you're just looking for something to complain about.

Of course complaining is something people like to do, but it's not constructive apart from letting Wyrd know you're interested in future support for those masters, which would probably be done better through the Beta. 

/rant

[Thatguy]

On 7/30/2018 at 12:21 PM, Adran said:

I agree that some people are worried about this, but I think it's a very long term worry.

That's the thing though. If there's a time to be upset, it's now. As dead masters no longer get support, they're going to slowly be phased out. No support, slowly becoming less competitive until they are dropped from tournaments. There won't be a "and now he's dead dead" moment. Which I think was the point of the plan. When they disappear in a far off 4th ed, it won't be a big deal in the community.

On 7/30/2018 at 1:08 PM, lusciousmccabe said:

Has Jacob Lynch gotten any additions to his core crew since v1.5? Don't think so.

Weren't depleted after 1.5?

[Cedar]

On 7/30/2018 at 8:08 PM, lusciousmccabe said:

Has Jacob Lynch gotten any additions to his core crew since v1.5? Don't think so.

Gwynneth Maddox in Broken Promises.

[lusciousmccabe]

8 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

That's the thing though. If there's a time to be upset, it's now. As dead masters no longer get support, they're going to slowly be phased out. No support, slowly becoming less competitive until they are dropped from tournaments. There won't be a "and now he's dead dead" moment. Which I think was the point of the plan. When they disappear in a far off 4th ed, it won't be a big deal in the community.

Weren't depleted after 1.5?

So, we should get annoyed now because Wyrd have done such a good job cushioning the blow that it won't bother us later on? Seems like very odd reasoning to me.

Depleted were in v1.5 as far as I'm aware. Don't think they were as useful and they disappeared for a bit during the first wave of M2E.

So, even if they were an addition or we count their update as support then Lynch got two models and two upgrades in ~6 years without any complaints. Tannen and Graves even lost their specific interactions with the crew between editions and that didn't matter either.

If it takes half that long for the Dead masters to be forgotten then I'm fine with it. If they maintain their fan base maybe Wyrd will throw them a bone or add them back. If not then it's no big loss; I'd say most people aren't actively involved in the game much longer than that anyway.

 

 

[Thatguy]

36 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

So, we should get annoyed now because Wyrd have done such a good job cushioning the blow that it won't bother us later on?

Cushioning could also be seen as obfuscating.  The intent being the same, but one way is a long protracted death, instead of a quick one.

38 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

If it takes half that long for the Dead masters to be forgotten then I'm fine with it. If they maintain their fan base maybe Wyrd will throw them a bone or add them back.

That was my impression. Hopefully Nico will make a come back.

39 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

.If not then it's no big loss; I'd say most people aren't actively involved in the game much longer than that anyway. 

I'm not sure what you mean.

[Clement]

1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

That's the thing though. If there's a time to be upset, it's now. As dead masters no longer get support, they're going to slowly be phased out. No support, slowly becoming less competitive until they are dropped from tournaments. There won't be a "and now he's dead dead" moment. Which I think was the point of the plan. When they disappear in a far off 4th ed, it won't be a big deal in the community.

That they become steadily less competitive is entirely dependent on how they are built.  Let's use Nico because this is the resser forum.  Even in 2E, Nico with his initial release stuff was highly competitive and remained so through 4 books.  It was really book 5 that got him into full problematic mode.

If he's built for the long haul (let's say he continues to buff lots of "undead" models) I could see him remaining relevant and competitive for maybe the life of 3rd edition.

Or at least until some petty TO decides to ban the dead mans hand because "you should get over it, he's gone".

Really, the creation of the Dead Man's Hand is an interesting step toward phasing out a master.  Now when you can't play it at an event, you have someone right there in front of you to yell at, instead of just shaking your fist at Wyrd.   Or totally kirk out I guess.

[Thatguy]

Yeah. It's an interesting way of doing it. I'm not sure if i like it or not.

If the intent was to open more design space, and allow for more miniatures to be added to the game, I wish they'd done it with more masters, and models. With options of call backs, or returns for popular characters.

[lusciousmccabe]

22 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I'm not sure what you mean.

Yeah, I was struggling to put that into words a bit.

Basically, the game has a certain retention rate. It's hard to judge because of people dropping in and out, varying levels of involvement and the hobby element, but if I were to make a complete guess I'd say the typical player is into malifaux for 1-5 years.

If the dead man's hand keeps masters in circulation for somewhere in that region of time the people who pick them up now will get their full play's worth. Then interest will either pick up if the masters remain attractive to new players or peter off organically over time so people won't feel hard done by like they would with a sudden cut-off on playing a master.

For die-hard players I don't think it's such an issue either because they usually have many crews in their collection and probably love the game enough to take a hit in competitiveness if it means seeing their old favourites on the table.

[Mason]

13 hours ago, Thatguy said:

That's the thing though. If there's a time to be upset, it's now. As dead masters no longer get support, they're going to slowly be phased out. No support, slowly becoming less competitive until they are dropped from tournaments. There won't be a "and now he's dead dead" moment. Which I think was the point of the plan. When they disappear in a far off 4th ed, it won't be a big deal in the community.

I assure you, I am way too focused on M3E to even consider the possibility of a 4th edition, let alone to start planning model lists for it.