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4 hours ago, SunTsu said:

I cannot understand all that concerns about pass tokens...

Finally, having more bodies on the grounds means usually having more wounds and more actions (let's enter in the new wording mindset from now... ^_^ ) than the opponent. Sure more models at the same cost means those ones will be more fragile and less performant than a single very expensive one, obviously. But one of the main problem in M2e was exactly how powerful out-activation (OA) was. Entire branches of ruleset and design space were closed to let the game balance OA in some way. All the GG2018 revolved around limiting OA as away to be OP. And again a relevant part of the summoning problem was caused by the OA. This forced the game in a state where, or to be competitive you absolutely needed to build a crew around summoning/OA, or the devs were forced to create patches that hinder in a way or another the game design. Examples? Stuffed piglets were nerfed so that they became unuseful at their actual cost, and the only reason was OA. Their "extinction" meant also the pigapult was pushed out of the game. OA forbid to create very cheap models, since the ony existence to get a single activation would make those models OP, while at a slightly higher cost they suddenly become unplayable...

What's this pass mechanic, from what we know/guess at the moment? If the opponent outnumber you by 5 models, you get 5 pass tokens. It's easy to guess you can spend one token to pass your turn to activate a model. The opponent still have some activations in a row, but at last you decide when he will get those activations. So this will avoid that a player can use all his insignificant activations at the beginning of the turn in order of score or do whetever he want in the end of the tun, well knowing there will be no retaliation neither any reply from the other player: this, in a game that is build around the IGYG it's a tombstone...

We don't know the details of this mechanic. For example if killing a models that didn't activate yet force the owner to discard a pass token. But I don't see any problem of using 5 PT in a row, if the opponent got 5 activations more than you...

Overmore, it opens interesting design spaces that the devs had highlighted in M3e presentation: some models or entire crews will be able to trade some activation control for some kind of power, such as Perdita's crew that can discard PT to gain focus. And also, obviously many cheap models will be very susceptible to area damage while relatively resistant to single-target high-damage attacks, and the opposite.

Sure, this means a completely rework of costs of many models. I expect that, since the OA will be not a factor anymore, bigger models would get a cost increase, while some small ones will see their cost decrease accordingly since the inherent advantage to get +1 activation will be no more so important now (malifaux rats at 1ss? stuffed piglet again back to 2ss??? ;)). But a major part of the beta testing I guess will revolve around this work of balancing things.

Finally, we have a lot of time to do this work and to be sure that the ruleset works and are well balanced. @Mason said the priority is on balance and fun. And this sounds as an insurance, coupled with the fact Wyrd didn't announced any release date yet. This means for me that the mind is open and the beta will be not a simple formal exercise, but a real testing for which there isn't a written conclusion in a defined time at the moment.

So, let's try to be positive and constructive, wouldn't you??? :D

Just my small thoughts here.... 🤗

I guess what people are afraid of is that if there is no value in cheap models because they provide that extra activation, a small-count elite crew could even the odds pretty quickly and then dominate the game. Suppose I have 5 models worth 10 stones each, and you have 10 models worth 5 stones each. My 5 models each kill a cheap model on their turn, while you kill none (especially with damage being toned down and all). So on Turn 2/3 we both have 5 models, but mine are bigger, better and way out of reach of yours. Why would I ever go for quantity if it gives me little advantage? Sure, you can say more models = more actions and you can drop more scheme markers and all - but again, once the big guys dispose of the opponent's extra ones, the game will be pretty much done and dusted there.
Already in M2E against heavy damage/elite crews the only remedy is to stay hidden and delay the important activations, but if this is not possible because pass tokens, one is forced to either expose some models or waste a turn. I'm thinking for example a typical Perdita or Sonnia crew...they can easily murder one (or more) models a turn. The only way to stay safe is to feed them fodder, or delay your important activations staying hidden until she's activated...you see the (potential) problem? If they get multiple pass tokens, there's no way to stay safe...

Again, I'm just voicing what the people are afraid of. I agree that out-activation was starting to become a problem - but it was so only because there were more and more cheap models available. I'm curious to read the rules too and try it out, because as it is there are justified worries, and it looks like certain masters like summoners and masters that made numbers their whole schtick (like Som'er and Hamelin) will be hit - while small elite (and in particular shooty, like Perdita and the like) crews will have an advantage.

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Well, but in your example that 5 model crew that can kill one model a turn in a 10 model crew will need 10 turns to table the opponent. And, jokes apart, if they focus on just killing they won't do much scoring.

In the end I will all depend on how it gets balanced. Having played mostly against summoners i for one welcome the idea of the pass tokens

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2 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

I guess what people are afraid of is that if there is no value in cheap models because they provide that extra activation, a small-count elite crew could even the odds pretty quickly and then dominate the game. Suppose I have 5 models worth 10 stones each, and you have 10 models worth 5 stones each. My 5 models each kill a cheap model on their turn, while you kill none (especially with damage being toned down and all). So on Turn 2/3 we both have 5 models, but mine are bigger, better and way out of reach of yours. Why would I ever go for quantity if it gives me little advantage? Sure, you can say more models = more actions and you can drop more scheme markers and all - but again, once the big guys dispose of the opponent's extra ones, the game will be pretty much done and dusted there.
 

If you look at M2e 10 5 stone models will probably do about the same damage as 5 10 stone models, and have the same total amount of wounds. So if you are killing 5 5 stone models you ought to kill at least 2 10 stone models in return. So the quantity ought to out number for a few turns. 

This is probably even more true in a lower damage environment especially when the advantage of out activation has been reduced. 

 

And in response to the having to just weather a powerful activation, unless both players do nothing except for that last activation, both crews will be risking models or not threatening unless they win initiative

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6 hours ago, SunTsu said:

I cannot understand all that concerns about pass tokens...

Finally, having more bodies on the grounds means usually having more wounds and more actions (let's enter in the new wording mindset from now... ^_^ ) than the opponent. Sure more models at the same cost means those ones will be more fragile and less performant than a single very expensive one, obviously. But one of the main problem in M2e was exactly how powerful out-activation (OA) was. Entire branches of ruleset and design space were closed to let the game balance OA in some way. All the GG2018 revolved around limiting OA as away to be OP. And again a relevant part of the summoning problem was caused by the OA. This forced the game in a state where, or to be competitive you absolutely needed to build a crew around summoning/OA, or the devs were forced to create patches that hinder in a way or another the game design. Examples? Stuffed piglets were nerfed so that they became unuseful at their actual cost, and the only reason was OA. Their "extinction" meant also the pigapult was pushed out of the game. OA forbid to create very cheap models, since the ony existence to get a single activation would make those models OP, while at a slightly higher cost they suddenly become unplayable...

What's this pass mechanic, from what we know/guess at the moment? If the opponent outnumber you by 5 models, you get 5 pass tokens. It's easy to guess you can spend one token to pass your turn to activate a model. The opponent still have some activations in a row, but at last you decide when he will get those activations. So this will avoid that a player can use all his insignificant activations at the beginning of the turn in order of score or do whetever he want in the end of the tun, well knowing there will be no retaliation neither any reply from the other player: this, in a game that is build around the IGYG it's a tombstone...

We don't know the details of this mechanic. For example if killing a models that didn't activate yet force the owner to discard a pass token. But I don't see any problem of using 5 PT in a row, if the opponent got 5 activations more than you...

Overmore, it opens interesting design spaces that the devs had highlighted in M3e presentation: some models or entire crews will be able to trade some activation control for some kind of power, such as Perdita's crew that can discard PT to gain focus. And also, obviously many cheap models will be very susceptible to area damage while relatively resistant to single-target high-damage attacks, and the opposite.

Sure, this means a completely rework of costs of many models. I expect that, since the OA will be not a factor anymore, bigger models would get a cost increase, while some small ones will see their cost decrease accordingly since the inherent advantage to get +1 activation will be no more so important now (malifaux rats at 1ss? stuffed piglet again back to 2ss??? ;)). But a major part of the beta testing I guess will revolve around this work of balancing things.

Finally, we have a lot of time to do this work and to be sure that the ruleset works and are well balanced. @Mason said the priority is on balance and fun. And this sounds as an insurance, coupled with the fact Wyrd didn't announced any release date yet. This means for me that the mind is open and the beta will be not a simple formal exercise, but a real testing for which there isn't a written conclusion in a defined time at the moment.

So, let's try to be positive and constructive, wouldn't you??? :D

Just my small thoughts here.... 🤗

I think the concern is reverse Alpha Strike. You with the bigger Crew use all your Activations getting to the enemy. Then, the enemy can Activate their entire (or at least most of their) crew and act without their opponent interfering. It gives the person with the pass tokens more control over the tempo over the game which basically the opposite of the current situation where the player that has more activations controls the tempo.

However, if done right, I think there can be a balance so that both big and small Crews are viable. We'll have to wait and see if ME3 gets it right.

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No Miniatures game I’ve played has ever gotten pass mechanics right. No Miniatures game, conceptional or practical, I’ve tested has ever gotten pass mechanics right. I’m not saying Wyrd is making a mistake, or that they will flub these, or that it’s a bad idea to try, but just be optomistic is not a realistic or practical piece of advise. 

Im totally willing to see them, and perhaps there is some cost associated that mitigates it. But I’d rather we have what we have now, with possibly some tweaks on the lower end of cost so no model is practically costed for viable hire activation spam, than move to a system that says hiring low cost models is basically throwing points away.

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Personally I think the pass mechanic is great.  Lets for example take two crews which I was a part of recently. 1 crew had 11 models the other crew had 8.

no pass mechanics: the smaller crew went first. the last 3 activations were the bigger crews biggest beaters and there's nothing the smaller crew could do to stop them other than try to spread out, hide and cede the board.  This is super common in M2E at the moment with the Alpha strike being so prevalent.

Now lets say there are pass mechanics: the smaller crew gets 3 pass tokens (11-8) and passes their first three activations. not end of turn 1 both crews' big beaters/masters are going together making the game much more tactical for both players (IMO). Let's say no one dies turn 1 and the bigger beaters are either engaged or in position to do some serious damage. we come to two possibilities:

  1. The bigger crew wins initiative/has to go first, do they: activate their bigger models to capitalise on their position and try and kill the enemy models before they activate or go their smaller schemers and hope their bigger stuff can whether the storm? If they go with their bigger stuff first then the smaller crew can either react to save the model or get some damage out of it before they die or pass and hope they don't die.  Either way tough choices for both players (in my experience, when there's a scrum those models usually go first). Now end of turn two comes around and the bigger crew still has 3 models to either try and complete strats & scheme uncontested, try and kill off their enemy beaters or position themselves to win the game. Either way, these smaller models are probably the models that win the game.
  2. The smaller player wins initiative/has to go first, do they: pass and let the other play decide and hope their beaters don't die and try to counter the schemers or again go for the throat? Again either way, choices and ones they didn't have before.

Most games I've had, the player with the bigger crew really controls the flow of the game and where & when the initial action takes place. With the pass mechanic, both players have a say and it becomes a bit more of a Mexican stand off to see who goes for it (which I hope is rewarded), or baits the opponent in.  However, having a bigger crew is still advantageous as you still have models either at the end of the turn (especially after turn 1, when it's usually a bad idea to wait) or whenever to do strats & schemes unopposed.

Summoning giving pass tokens is also great imo opinion. In M2E there are two main kinds of summoning. Activation padders or strikers.  Activation paddders were usually summoned early so (IMO) created the same bad thing I wrote about in para.2. The strikers were usually summoned at the end of the turn by the master (usually after the entire opponents crew has gone).  In this case, pass tokens are less useful as most of the crews have already activated and if the summoner is the last model to activate then the opponent will either only have 1 or no activations left to pass anyway. to counter the new summons.

I'm quite optimistic about the Pass mechanic. I think there will be pros & cons to taking smaller or bigger crews rather than the bigger crew holding all the advantages.

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11 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

 I agree that out-activation was starting to become a problem 

No, out-activation has been a big problem for a long time. The small elite crews were unplayable versus big crews. 

OA has been the way to win for years, and I'm really glad to see this is changing. 

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9 hours ago, Adran said:

If you look at M2e 10 5 stone models will probably do about the same damage as 5 10 stone models, and have the same total amount of wounds. So if you are killing 5 5 stone models you ought to kill at least 2 10 stone models in return. So the quantity ought to out number for a few turns. 

This is probably even more true in a lower damage environment especially when the advantage of out activation has been reduced. 

 

And in response to the having to just weather a powerful activation, unless both players do nothing except for that last activation, both crews will be risking models or not threatening unless they win initiative

Heavilly disagree with the 10 5ss models being roughly equivalent to 5 10ss models when it comes to damage. God knows I love my 10T brothers who are in the high end of value for 5ss models (could be priced 6 and still be good) but stuff like izamu will be nuking ine per activation a more than reasonable amount of times while on the flipside 3-4 10t brothers will have a hard time taking down izamu in a turn.

The 10t brigade will of course be better at objectives, no denying that, but when you bring big models you also bring tools to enhance them even today where overactivation is a real problem, stuff like Nekima or Yasunori have been wrecking face. Now imagine that you suddenly don't need to bring chaff just for chaffs sake to bulk up numbers to ket your heavy hitter choose their moment.

I personally hope thar 8-10 model crews end up being the norm thanks to scenarios making weenies a must with a hunter or 2 to make quick work of them, but I am nervous that a 6 model 2 master crew ends up with the tools to absolutely nuke half the crew of the 10 model crew by turn 2 since at that point your numbers mean shit and the elite crew can use a couple of models for objectives while the rest clean house.

Personally, I favor the need for a cost to be paid to use a pass token, on the flipside I also expect bullshit like the rat factory not existing anymore and creating a sysyem for cheap models to operate in packs (all stuffed piglets activate together, all seshin activate together sort of thing). But that's a whole other discussion.

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On 8/10/2018 at 9:40 AM, Adran said:

The problem with this is even more of your argument against a flat cost. If a 5 as model cost +1 and a 6 cost +2 then no one would hire the 6 stone for 8 when they could hire the 5 stone for 6. 

It's possible that the granular cost could be better, but I don't think it's quite as clear cut as you claim. 

Well, that's the most decent generic of going woth that approach but it's certainly not ideal. But having a flexible cost increase for out  of theme does give you wiggle room even if 90% of models end up just having +1 cost.

Example, turns out that for some random reason the ice golem is amazing with Kaeris, this did not get detected during the beta, with Rasputina and Sandeep the golem is fine and at expectedish level.

So with the current proposed blanket +1 for all, you have to errata the golem itself or screw around with the Kaeris elements that make the ice golem too good. So you risk making the golem less than desirable for Rasputina and Sandeep or breaking some other synergy with Kaeris. Enter flexible costs for hiring outside, mow you bump the golems cost by 2 instead of 1 or maybe even 3 and Kaeris will be thinking quite a bit more about taking it, yes it does screw rhe Colette player that liked taking the ice golem, but I rather she misses out than the masters who are in theme with the piece.

A small bump like that was enough to make Yasunori not be an autoinclude outside of Asami, so those things do work.

It's also a way to give flexible control over 2 master hiring. It's not the same to hire a heavy synergy master than a mostly independent bruiser, so why should hiring either just be a 1ss penalty?

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18 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

If they do the pass mechanic well no problem, but I’m very skeptical. I do not want to play a game that is all about tiny elite crews. 

Yeah, like a tiny elite crew that takes all it's activations consecutively after a horde of chaff locks the other crew out of activations.

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4 hours ago, Zebo said:

No, out-activation has been a big problem for a long time. The small elite crews were unplayable versus big crews. 

OA has been the way to win for years, and I'm really glad to see this is changing. 

depends what you do and how you use it. My marcus crew only has 6 models and wins games. or I played an 8 model crew into a 14 model gremlin one and just removed his models for the win. it is already possible to beat big crews with smaller ones. The problem comes when you both have equal quality crews then your opponent summons loads of extra stuff.

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30 minutes ago, katadder said:

depends what you do and how you use it. My marcus crew only has 6 models and wins games. or I played an 8 model crew into a 14 model gremlin one and just removed his models for the win. it is already possible to beat big crews with smaller ones. The problem comes when you both have equal quality crews then your opponent summons loads of extra stuff.

It's not the size that counts... It's how you use it!

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14 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

No Miniatures game I’ve played has ever gotten pass mechanics right. No Miniatures game, conceptional or practical, I’ve tested has ever gotten pass mechanics right. I’m not saying Wyrd is making a mistake, or that they will flub these, or that it’s a bad idea to try, but just be optomistic is not a realistic or practical piece of advise. 

Im totally willing to see them, and perhaps there is some cost associated that mitigates it. But I’d rather we have what we have now, with possibly some tweaks on the lower end of cost so no model is practically costed for viable hire activation spam, than move to a system that says hiring low cost models is basically throwing points away.

While I think that havening some cost associated with passing would help keep things in check it seems like not allowging  consecutive passes from a player would also work unless the crew size were very similar.

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On 8/11/2018 at 7:42 AM, edopersichetti said:

For the record, Mason just confirmed that summoning a model means the opponent gets a Pass Token right away :(

I remember discussing with some people about out-activation still going to be possible with summoning (@Clement @Razhem @Fetid Strumpet @retnab @mrninja13 and others) - this unfortunately means that not even that is going to be true. It looks like the devs are adamant that there can't be any sort of out-activation whatsoever... :(

At this point my first beta game will have to be Som'er or Ulix or some other summoner - I need to figure out if this Pass Token thing actually makes sense, and how the game changes. I'm very worried.


Not quite, we know there are at least a few other uses for pass tokens besides passing.

"[Perdita's] thematic crew possesses the Bravado ability, which allows them to discard their Pass Tokens to become Focused, effectively allowing them to sacrifice activation control for pure damage."

23 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

I guess what people are afraid of is that if there is no value in cheap models because they provide that extra activation, a small-count elite crew could even the odds pretty quickly and then dominate the game. Suppose I have 5 models worth 10 stones each, and you have 10 models worth 5 stones each. My 5 models each kill a cheap model on their turn, while you kill none (especially with damage being toned down and all). So on Turn 2/3 we both have 5 models, but mine are bigger, better and way out of reach of yours. Why would I ever go for quantity if it gives me little advantage? Sure, you can say more models = more actions and you can drop more scheme markers and all - but again, once the big guys dispose of the opponent's extra ones, the game will be pretty much done and dusted there.
Already in M2E against heavy damage/elite crews the only remedy is to stay hidden and delay the important activations, but if this is not possible because pass tokens, one is forced to either expose some models or waste a turn. I'm thinking for example a typical Perdita or Sonnia crew...they can easily murder one (or more) models a turn. The only way to stay safe is to feed them fodder, or delay your important activations staying hidden until she's activated...you see the (potential) problem? If they get multiple pass tokens, there's no way to stay safe...

Again, I'm just voicing what the people are afraid of. I agree that out-activation was starting to become a problem - but it was so only because there were more and more cheap models available. I'm curious to read the rules too and try it out, because as it is there are justified worries, and it looks like certain masters like summoners and masters that made numbers their whole schtick (like Som'er and Hamelin) will be hit - while small elite (and in particular shooty, like Perdita and the like) crews will have an advantage.

If you let 5 models each kill a model, I'd say you're really bad at the game. In the current game, you still need models to spend their turns giving pushes/obeys to get the big models into position.

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In fact, the reallity of the game should be 5 x 10ss models + master (6) versus 2 x 10ss models + 7 x 4ss models plus master (10)

In the first turn the 10ss crew does nothing, because of no targets in range, an when they finish then the 10ss models of the big crew can easily make a alpha strike and kill at least 1 enemy model. 

Second turn starts with a crew with 4 x 10ss models and a master versus a crew with full potential and twice activations. Depending of the situation, the game can be already lost or only quite difficult for the elite crew. 

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9 minutes ago, Zebo said:

In fact, the reallity of the game should be 5 x 10ss models + master (6) versus 2 x 10ss models + 7 x 4ss models plus master (10)

In the first turn the 10ss crew does nothing, because of no targets in range, an when they finish then the 10ss models of the big crew can easily make a alpha strike and kill at least 1 enemy model. 

Second turn starts with a crew with 4 x 10ss models and a master versus a crew with full potential and twice activations. Depending of the situation, the game can be already lost or only quite difficult for the elite crew. 

This is the scenario without pass tokens...with pass tokens, the (6) crew will just pass and wait for positioning, then kill one or two of the 4ss models which, I presume, will be rather easy to do...and go from there. It's all hypothetical anyway but it looks plausible to me.

I mean, I get it, right now people are angry because activations are so important that crews with more activations tend to do better and elite crews are outnumbered - and elite crews are those that tend to attract newer players anyway - the big, mean, kick-ass looking crews. But that is in the natural order of things (ANY wargame has, say, a horde of goblins vs a small contingent of elf swordsmen, and the like), and I think pass tokens evening out the numbers will give an upper hand to elite crews that they do not need...because they are elite already! If you allow a crew composed of models 7SS and up to have the same tempo as one composed of 5SS and down...the better stats and difference in abilities (higher damage output, range etc.), at least from a logical point of view, should swing the battle in favor of the elite crew pretty clearly.

I'm not saying pass tokens are bad per se, just that they're a slippery slope and hard to get right - so I'm curious to try them out, hoping there is some balancing mechanics (not for free, or not two in a row, or something) and hoping Wyrd gets it right. But at the moment I'm with @Fetid Strumpet on this one - i.e. I am let's say "skeptical". :)

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9 minutes ago, Nikshe said:

I just LOVE TheoryMalifaux. Good theorist can discuss Malifaux without any information about terrain, strategy and schemes at all. Also, neither fractions nor Masters are interesting for skilled theorist, and no models are named. Pure Malifaux with no distraction.

I agree - this is pretty exciting. We love theorizing about our favorite game ;)

It's the only thing we can do while we wait for the actual beta to begin - this, or eating our knuckles will we get to the bone :D

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13 hours ago, Razhem said:

Heavilly disagree with the 10 5ss models being roughly equivalent to 5 10ss models when it comes to damage. God knows I love my 10T brothers who are in the high end of value for 5ss models (could be priced 6 and still be good) but stuff like izamu will be nuking ine per activation a more than reasonable amount of times while on the flipside 3-4 10t brothers will have a hard time taking down izamu in a turn.

 

Really? You find Izamu can get 2 of his 3 attacks to hit against a model that ought to be on positive flips and a higher stat. 

And models that have a higher attack stat, and a trigger for positive damage flips should have a chance to get that 5 severe  And depending on hand you can be using focus.

In a protracted fight, the slow trigger on the ttb, and the healing actions both have probably make it down to luck on when izamu kills one, and if he dies. 

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57 minutes ago, Adran said:

Really? You find Izamu can get 2 of his 3 attacks to hit against a model that ought to be on positive flips and a higher stat. 

And models that have a higher attack stat, and a trigger for positive damage flips should have a chance to get that 5 severe  And depending on hand you can be using focus.

In a protracted fight, the slow trigger on the ttb, and the healing actions both have probably make it down to luck on when izamu kills one, and if he dies. 

Yeah, pretty much, the extra defense doesn't come into play unless you activate the trigger, so before that you are def 5 and probably losing half your wounds right there, second is against defensive with def 6, but ties you win, cheat kill done. With focused attacks you can pile in decent damage of course, but that means 2 attacks instead of 4 from 2 models ganging up and leaving an activation in between and only severe makes it worth your time, can't cheat or flip lower and suddenly two attacks where the better idea.

This is using a model we can agree is better for it's cost and assuming nothing else is enhancing izamu (elite crews take pieces to enhance their big toys, master included) and that he isn't as scary as other expensive stuff in his cost range nowadays.

When it comes to pure objectives, the 10t bro wrecks the izamu brigade no questions asked, but if we are talking about blodening noses, the izamus will destroy them, period, so you better hope the scheme and strat lets you play keep away and you keep getting those masks to teleport out.

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8 hours ago, Razhem said:

Yeah, pretty much, the extra defense doesn't come into play unless you activate the trigger, so before that you are def 5 and probably losing half your wounds right there, second is against defensive with def 6, but ties you win, cheat kill done. With focused attacks you can pile in decent damage of course, but that means 2 attacks instead of 4 from 2 models ganging up and leaving an activation in between and only severe makes it worth your time, can't cheat or flip lower and suddenly two attacks where the better idea.

Unless I've missed an errata, my ttb have df 6 to start with and go to df 7 once they get defensive. And any tome on that first attack can be used because they won't die in one hit without a red joker. And you can't then force the second hit unless you have a better hand. 

I don't know if you picked these deliberately, or they were a random pairing, but on straight damage output I'd expect 8-12 from izamu and 4-5 from a ttb.  That's pretty close to twice as effective for twice the cost. In the match I'd expect ttb to suffer 4 wounds on average, ( they might heal 2 on a 0 action), so 1/3 the total of the 2 models and izamu to suffer 4 or 5, so closer to 1/2 wounds. 

5 izamu against 10 ten thunder brothers probably kills 3 and hurts 2 or 3 more, but probably loses 1 and nearly 2 izamu. 

 

The original argument that 5 elite models could be easily kill and not have any killed in return is still faulty reasoning even when part of the power of cheap models is out activation and I assume that's included in the cost. When you remove that power you ought to increase their power in other ways to maintain balance. 

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To add to this, if it's true that models lose damage across the board, this also changes the equation, as the lower level models are hard pressed to lose lots of it as they will propably keep their min damage of 1. So this will in theory hit the elite models harder than the "chaff".

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2 hours ago, Adran said:

Unless I've missed an errata, my ttb have df 6 to start with and go to df 7 once they get defensive. And any tome on that first attack can be used because they won't die in one hit without a red joker. And you can't then force the second hit unless you have a better hand. 

I don't know if you picked these deliberately, or they were a random pairing, but on straight damage output I'd expect 8-12 from izamu and 4-5 from a ttb.  That's pretty close to twice as effective for twice the cost. In the match I'd expect ttb to suffer 4 wounds on average, ( they might heal 2 on a 0 action), so 1/3 the total of the 2 models and izamu to suffer 4 or 5, so closer to 1/2 wounds. 

5 izamu against 10 ten thunder brothers probably kills 3 and hurts 2 or 3 more, but probably loses 1 and nearly 2 izamu. 

 

The original argument that 5 elite models could be easily kill and not have any killed in return is still faulty reasoning even when part of the power of cheap models is out activation and I assume that's included in the cost. When you remove that power you ought to increase their power in other ways to maintain balance. 

Christ 10T brothers are amazing... But anyway, yes, some izamu will drop, but it takes a concerted effort and it really should. Due to table presence abd action number, a 10ss model should be better than 2 of a 5ss model since having 2 models brings inherent benefits. And hell, if I swap izamu for nothing beasts, suddenly things are a lot more grim for the bros or if instead of using one of the best 5ss models use something more midtier.

My worry and what the point if this whole exercise is about is that what keeps the izamu brigade in check (and some would say too much) is activation control. Currentle, 5 bros activate and keep away, once all the elites activate, the other 5 swamp 1 and hace decent odds of taking one down. But with pass tokens that advantage is suddenly truncated, you cannot ensure first boood anymore without exposing through activation control.

This doesn't have to be a bad thing, but it does make me weary that elite crews will get a lot out of not worrying about activation control since it's one of the big selling points of bringing more chaff and the might have the potential to table more number based crews in turns 2 and 3 simply because the non elite crew can't really keep the elites in check. I have seen crews get decimated just because a very killy model managed to get into possition, hell the viks were a problem for a time since they could use the rat engine to ensure first strike, deal a massive blow and god forbid the also won initiative.

Of course this is just spitballing, it's more of "another thing to keep eyes on during beta". Maybe the reduced damage and melee ranges through the board will be enough to make this a non issue. I mean, we have very little information still, though looking at Cojo, he doesn't seem to be as scary as current 10ss models, so for all I know the problem could end up being the opposite where chaff is just better because elites got defanged too much like MuMantai is saying.

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15 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

If you allow a crew composed of models 7SS and up to have the same tempo as one composed of 5SS and down...the better stats and difference in abilities (higher damage output, range etc.), at least from a logical point of view, should swing the battle in favor of the elite crew pretty clearly.

That would be true if activation control was the only advantage to be had with the larger crew, which isn't necessarily true. It's important that quantity has its own sort of quality, particularly in other games where alternating activations are not a thing. We obviously don't want to end up in a situation where elite builds or swarm builds are outright better than the other option, but I don't think you can say whether a passing mechanic will automatically tip the scales one way or the other without seeing how the elite and horde crews balance up outside of that. 

I can see why Wyrd might want to go down the route of eliminating out-activation since it's hard to put an actual (i.e. soulstone) cost on it. One of the reasons is it depends completely on match up, so if you've diluted your crew down to one missile and a bunch of chaff it's potentially worthless if the other crew happens to have more chaff, and you have no way of knowing that when building your crew. Even activations but uneven AP/model count seems slightly more easy to evaluate in a vacuum from a design perspective, but then again some of the mechanics that use pass tokens look to open up that match-up based can of worms all over again, so we really need a lot more information before making any judgement. 

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