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Well, i really like the change to the charge, it does introduce a nice tactical decision element.

I'm not against pass tokens either, especially against summoners, when if you didn't stop the engine early they would out activate everyone and have free rein with their beaters.

I'm still a bit ambivalent regarding the other changes, sometimes things are complicated just for the sake of complexity and in practice there won't be much lost by streamlining, but it will be a balancing act to get right.

It's true, however, that there are a LOT of moving parts in m2e that need to be  learnt and taken into account when playing that go beyond stat card complexity: your crew abilities, the opponent's, your hand and discards, your opponent's, your schemes and strategies, trying to guess the opponent's etc. In a way they are what makes malifaux rich, but it's a lot for beginners to process

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Not too keen on pass tokens being usable without cost. Though thing to note, if a model gets summoned it technically won't give a token to the opponent so outactivation can happen like that.

Also echoing Fetid's desire to know how the totem with secondary masters work, have also heard conflucting information on that.

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1 hour ago, edopersichetti said:

I'm actually in favor of most of those, even though there is a concern for watering-down that keeps creeping up...simplification is nice, over-simplification not so much. No more different charge ranges, no more stat for attacks, no more AP, weakened red joker, now no more peons...there's actually quite a few more that don't come to mind now, but all together, it looks like we're losing quite a bit of depth.

I'm all in favour of simplification in terms of stream-lining, but not if it's to the point where your choices start to matter less. Charge is still interesting for the reasons you've mentioned, attack stats were fiddly and largely pointless, AP is only gone in name, weaker red joker does make holding it less of an important choice and peons were a bit of a stub and had that annoying overlap with insignificant that meant one of them was close to redundant. It's kind of hard to say where we are in terms of simplification at this stage because adding in double masters probably does more to complicate the game than any single other thing they could have done. 

Also, generally think some simplification in terms of core rules is pretty necessary if Wyrd want to keep making things more complicated via new releases. 

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1 hour ago, edopersichetti said:

Not sure if this has popped up somewhere else already, but here's an excerpt from Malifaux Musings:

All initiative can be cheated. - I don't like this one. It should be a flip and potential re-flip at the cost  of SS so as usual
 
You get pass tokens based on difference in activations and it recounts each turn. - Again not big fan of this solution. IMO favors tough and hard hitting elite crews too much
 
All models outside of the Keyword get the old merc tax penalty of +1ss. - I'm fine with that
 
Damage scaled down. - Might be ok but it depends how much it would be scaled down
 
Engagement ranges scaled down. - again i'm not big fan of that. Engagement gave you some tactical possibilities but now... again depends how much it will be scaled down
 
Charges are 1 AP Walks plus a single attack. No more than 1 charge a turn, barring special rules like Cojo. - I'm ok with that.
 
First Master hire is free, others pay the cost. Totems are free with their Master. No generic totems. - not big fan of this idea about getting additional masters... It is asking the problems and i'm nearly sure will be a reason for some sort of balance issue 
 
Each faction gets Versatile models, like the Effigy, Emissary and Riders, which don’t pay the tax with any Master. - i'm ok with that.
 
  Peons are no longer a thing. All non minions are rare 1 unless specified otherwise - not sure about this rare 1 cap for non-minion models but worth of testing.

 

As edopersichetti said it looks like many things will be watered down and simplified. It is big gesture for the new players but old ones will feel like they were robbed of something...

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I am starting to get a bit worried. Handing out "free" pass tokens, being able to hire multiple masters and the removal of Paralyzed does seem to favour elite crews. I really hope that the game does not shift towards crews consisting of a few "unbeatable" models steamrolling any lesser models and require that you bring similiar models yourself. One of the things that I really like about Malifaux is that it requires multiple different models working together rather then a few super models that can do everything.

I'm still hoping that Wyrd will balance it out, though. 

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As much as outactivation by cheap models was a thing and it needed to be fixed in some way, and it was a problem, my favorite thing about M2E was that it actively encouraged models from all cost ranges. I really do not want to lose that aspect.

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Well, you will still need models to do objectives and that tends to be done better by the cheap stuff. Really depends on how palpable the damage reduction is. If the elite crew can't table you by round 3 to do their objectives then going full elite might not be such a nobrainer. 

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Adding new activations during the turn (aka summoning) will still get you activation control, just only on the turn you summoned.  Depending on how fast the summons are created, this can still let you get back to playing the activation control game without wandering off into "I hire 6 stuffed piglets, they dance and sing in my deployment zone turns 1 and 2" and the equally gross "Look at all these void wretches!".

It actually creates an interesting tension when you're out-activated against a summoning crew.  Kill the weak and fragile summons now?  Or let them live through the end of the turn for pass tokens, and try to kill them more efficiently next turn.

Models like Kentauri that kill themselves over the turn actually end up sort of being the best of both worlds.

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It's also worth noting that if you're outactivated, you're still allowing your opponent multiple consecutive activations at some point during the turn, you just have a bit of control over when that happens.

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We don't fully know how pass tokens actually work and how many things can be done at expense of one yet, but i can imagine that at least they will create a trade-off between conserving an activation with an important piece for later in the turn at the cost of having the opponent activating twice in a row (and possibly more, with companion and stuff), which might create intersting tactical decisions 

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I also really hope that second masters will come with no totem, not having one will remove lots of complications and might tone down the power level of the second masters too.

But i agree that this multiple masters malarkey is just asking for trouble

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1 hour ago, emiba said:

It's also worth noting that if you're outactivated, you're still allowing your opponent multiple consecutive activations at some point during the turn, you just have a bit of control over when that happens.

Plus, more activations still means having more actions, so its not pure benefit for an elite crew.

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2 hours ago, daniello_s said:

As edopersichetti said it looks like many things will be watered down and simplified. It is big gesture for the new players but old ones will feel like they were robbed of something...

This is something that was said between m1e and m2e. People said it would be way too simple. I do not miss m1e one bit, personally. 

Players will find the subtle complexities in the game and as the new edition expands, it will blossom in completely, same as m2e

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2 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I'm all in favour of simplification in terms of stream-lining, but not if it's to the point where your choices start to matter less. Charge is still interesting for the reasons you've mentioned, attack stats were fiddly and largely pointless, AP is only gone in name, weaker red joker does make holding it less of an important choice and peons were a bit of a stub and had that annoying overlap with insignificant that meant one of them was close to redundant. It's kind of hard to say where we are in terms of simplification at this stage because adding in double masters probably does more to complicate the game than any single other thing they could have done. 

Also, generally think some simplification in terms of core rules is pretty necessary if Wyrd want to keep making things more complicated via new releases. 

Yep, I see your point. Just, in the beginning I wasn't worried at all, now we are unsure - it's not good :) 

It's subtle differences sometimes, but think about this for example: a (2) AP action costs all of a model's AP, so normally can only be taken once. However, if the models gains extra AP, it might be able to take it twice: for example a fast, reckless Slop Hauler can heal twice (I built an entire crew on this!). How are you going to represent this with the current AP-less wording? The current (proposed?) wording for former (2) actions is "this action can only be taken once per activation, and no other action can be taken if this one is taken" ...so now add "unless the model can take two more actions, in which case this action can be taken again, and no other action can be taken after this action is taken again". You get my point :D

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If you're on the fence about simplifying certain aspects of the game, just think of Sandeep.  A master who worked his way up to the top shelf, not just by being powerful, but because a lot of people didn't understand half of what he was doing, including some of the people playing him.  The net result being Sandeep being played wrong and nobody realizing it because they didn't understand it themselves.

On the subject of a pass system, the Batman Miniatures Game uses one, and it's usually played at about the same model count as Malifaux (usually around 5-8 or so).  Basically, if your opponent outnumbers you, you get to pass a number of times equal to the difference in crew size but can't pass more than twice in a row.  There's also abilities that increase the number of passes you get.  It evens things out a bit, but doesn't completely negate the bonus of having lots of bodies on the table.  You can't blow all your passes at once, you still get combat bonuses in melee for outnumbering enemies, and, like Malifaux, it's a resource game and the more actions you can take the better. 

Having more models will always be powerful in Malifaux, but it seems like a lot of the combos that people have pulled their hair out because of in M2E (like the rat engine) have revolved around abusing it.  I think it's a reasonable thing if the devs say that activation control is not something to build the game around.  Malifaux' tagline is 'Bad Things Happen,' not 'You Will Be Out-Activated and Your Master Brutally Slain by Victoria on Turn One Because Guild Don't Have a Proper Summoning Master.'

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35 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

Yep, I see your point. Just, in the beginning I wasn't worried at all, now we are unsure - it's not good :) 

It's subtle differences sometimes, but think about this for example: a (2) AP action costs all of a model's AP, so normally can only be taken once. However, if the models gains extra AP, it might be able to take it twice: for example a fast, reckless Slop Hauler can heal twice (I built an entire crew on this!). How are you going to represent this with the current AP-less wording? The current (proposed?) wording for former (2) actions is "this action can only be taken once per activation, and no other action can be taken if this one is taken" ...so now add "unless the model can take two more actions, in which case this action can be taken again, and no other action can be taken after this action is taken again". You get my point :D

If you look at Cojos card from Gencon, he has an ability called Frenzied Charge, which lets him ignore the once per activation limit of Charge. 

The Ice Golem has Flurry, which was one per activation. After taking a melee action you can discard a card to take it again.

If these are examples of what’s happening to (2) actions, it’s more about increasing player choice during a given activation rather than spending time to set it up, and increasing AP efficiency. You get the same result - you can charge and then spend your second AP attacking again, or hit a model 3 times using Flurry.

But now if your second attack from Flurry or first attack from Charge kills the enemy, you have a choice of what to do next rather than having wasted AP.

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4 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Not sure if this has popped up somewhere else already, but here's an excerpt from Malifaux Musings:

All initiative can be cheated.
 
You get pass tokens based on difference in activations and it recounts each turn.
 
All models outside of the Keyword get the old merc tax penalty of +1ss.
 
Damage scaled down.
 
Engagement ranges scaled down.
 
Charges are 1 AP Walks plus a single attack. No more than 1 charge a turn, barring special rules like Cojo.
 
First Master hire is free, others pay the cost. Totems are free with their Master. No generic totems.
 
Each faction gets Versatile models, like the Effigy, Emissary and Riders, which don’t pay the tax with any Master.
 
              Peons are no longer a thing. All non minions are rare 1 unless specified otherwise

What do people think?

I'm actually in favor of most of those, even though there is a concern for watering-down that keeps creeping up...simplification is nice, over-simplification not so much. No more different charge ranges, no more stat for attacks, no more AP, weakened red joker, now no more peons...there's actually quite a few more that don't come to mind now, but all together, it looks like we're losing quite a bit of depth.

The new charge is interesting, even though it is strange that there isn't at least a +2 to the Mv or something like this. But basically if you use both AP - pardon, actions - you get a movement and two attacks like the old one...or you could walk and then charge for very long threat range, but only 1 attack. So it's an interesting tradeoff.

The reduction in engagement range means it's going to be harder to get engaged - I'll miss the 3" of some of the models, they provided huge table control! I'm a bit concerned about shooty crews being too powerful, especially since cover seems to have also gone down in efficacy - the :-flip modifier made sure that hitting in cover was almost impossible, now a mere +2 Df won't do much at all...

Damage scaled down: not sure what to think. Games will last longer if no models die :D

Pass tokens: completely cancel the advantage of out-activation? Man, that's harsh. You lose entirely one aspect of the game - again, we're losing some depth here. Some crews really relied on that to work.

Cheating initiative: again it looks like an attempt to make Malifaux more "democratic" and less depending on fate. 

In fact, now that I think about it, this seems to emerge as a recurring theme...both players have same number of activations (with pass tokens), both can cheat initiative, same amount of "cache" (0), red joker is watered down, etc. So less "bad things happen", and more chess? Mmmm. I kinda like the randomness aspect. I understand it can be frustrating at times, especially for beginners (and maybe that's why the change) but too predictable and too many "equal opportunities" becomes less spicy. I might be wrong, but that's my feeling.

Overall, I thought M3E was going to be a minor rework with a few changes in selected aspects that needed fine-tuning, but it looks more and more like a major overhaul, and I think it'll be a very different game experience. Looking forward to the Beta, and hopefully some or most of these changes are still work-in-progress!

Your thoughts folks?

I think M3E looks like a far superior experience to M2E, and exactly what the game needs.

 

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5 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Not sure if this has popped up somewhere else already, but here's an excerpt from Malifaux Musings:

All initiative can be cheated.
 
You get pass tokens based on difference in activations and it recounts each turn.
 
All models outside of the Keyword get the old merc tax penalty of +1ss.
 
Damage scaled down.
 
Engagement ranges scaled down.
 
Charges are 1 AP Walks plus a single attack. No more than 1 charge a turn, barring special rules like Cojo.
 
First Master hire is free, others pay the cost. Totems are free with their Master. No generic totems.
 
Each faction gets Versatile models, like the Effigy, Emissary and Riders, which don’t pay the tax with any Master.
 
              Peons are no longer a thing. All non minions are rare 1 unless specified otherwise

1. I like this. I have had many, many games come down to who gets initiative on a certain turn. I'd rather have some control. I may still have lower card than my opponent, so luck is still a factor. It just won't be the only one which is good when it can be so important.

2. I'm cautiously optimistic. Honestly, it makes me feel like I'm more likely to want my models to actually do something rather than just wasting a turn since I'm not really gaining an advantage for it.

3. Seems alright as long the themes come out right.

4. I'm fine with this. Models sticking around longer like a good thing.

5. Well, since shooting is taking some hits (+2 DF to cover for example), it seems like this will help keep it balanced. Really, it seems like models will be surviving much more this Edition.

6. I like this. It always sucked to throw away an AP just because you needed to kill that one almost dead enemy. This gives a lot more options.

7. Free totems are nice. It makes them feel much more part of the Master which I whole-heartedly support. I (almost) always play my Master's Totem no matter how terrible it is. Though I agree with others, I want any other Masters taken by the Crew to have to pay for their Totem (no extra cost though). Since Totems DO have a cost, I suspect they will cost for non-Leader Masters (though not sure if there will be a tax).

8. This is good.

9. This is also good. Peons were always so few it felt weird having a special class for super weak models. Just have them become minions.

1 hour ago, Clockwork_Fish said:

Having more models will always be powerful in Malifaux, but it seems like a lot of the combos that people have pulled their hair out because of in M2E (like the rat engine) have revolved around abusing it.  I think it's a reasonable thing if the devs say that activation control is not something to build the game around.  Malifaux' tagline is 'Bad Things Happen,' not 'You Will Be Out-Activated and Your Master Brutally Slain by Victoria on Turn One Because Guild Don't Have a Proper Summoning Master.'

ME3 will fix that. ;^)

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On 7/27/2018 at 7:37 PM, Urfin said:

Can we finally expect actual rules for Carver in M3E?

 

On 7/27/2018 at 7:57 PM, Mason said:

Just because you asked for it, I will make it happen.  :)

Thank you. Carver is one of my favorite models in the whole game but never saw a reason to buy him. Does this mean, though, that Carver is no longer going to be a legal proxy for Killjoy?

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9 hours ago, daniello_s said:

Engagement ranges scaled down. - again i'm not big fan of that. Engagement gave you some tactical possibilities but now... again depends how much it will be scaled down

The changes to the Walk and Disengage actions make me think that a large engagement range is a bigger benefit that it was in M2E. Disengaging turns off a model’s ability to Interact that turn and it looks like models will no longer be able to enter and leave an enemy’s engagement range during the move from a walk. 

It seems like a 30mm model with a 1 inch engagement range will be able to bottleneck about a 5 inch wide movement lane unless models have some way to push or place around its engagement range. Most models will need walk to the edge of the engagement range (possibly losing some distance off of their walk action) and the use the Disengage action to leave the engagement range.

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11 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Not sure if this has popped up somewhere else already, but here's an excerpt from Malifaux Musings:

All initiative can be cheated.
Don't like. More focus on who have the best hand. 
 
You get pass tokens based on difference in activations and it recounts each turn.
Really like this. Out-activation keeps being good, but not so hard. Still need to know about summoning, since some of the nastiest activation control can become from a little group of minis (hi rat engine) 
 
All models outside of the Keyword get the old merc tax penalty of +1ss.
Good with that
 
Damage scaled down.
No opinion. 
 
Engagement ranges scaled down.
Not sure. 
 
Charges are 1 AP Walks plus a single attack. No more than 1 charge a turn, barring special rules like Cojo.
Like this
 
First Master hire is free, others pay the cost. Totems are free with their Master. No generic totems.
Don't like the "all totems free". 
 
Each faction gets Versatile models, like the Effigy, Emissary and Riders, which don’t pay the tax with any Master.
Like this, hope way more versatile minis that the Effigies, Emissaries and a couple more. Like the themed crews, but with enough options. 
 
              Peons are no longer a thing. All non minions are rare 1 unless specified otherwise then now rats and that kind of stuff counts for schemes ans strategies. 

 

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3 hours ago, Phinn said:

 

Thank you. Carver is one of my favorite models in the whole game but never saw a reason to buy him. Does this mean, though, that Carver is no longer going to be a legal proxy for Killjoy?

I think it's safe to assume if there are rules for the carver it won't be a legal proxy for killjoy. 

 

My rough view is there appears to be fewer changes from 2-3 than there were from 1-2. Some changes are heading back towards some first edition things, and others are moving further away. 

But that's fine, some things in first worked "better" than they did in second, others didn't. 

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10 hours ago, Flinroz said:

I too agree that this thing we haven't seen yet and are making assumptions on will be overpowered. /sarcasm

I didn't say that, though, I just said it will be  really hard to get right

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Is there a limit on the number of masters you can have in a crew?  4 masters + their totems with 5ss to spare seems pretty nasty...

I'm also not a big fan of cheating initiative for the same reason Zebo said... It just changes the luck from the flip to the hand... Although it might work out in practice, so willing to see how it goes.

What makes people think they haven't just rolled Peon & Insignificant together? To me, having separate rules for Peon & Insignificant was kind of superfluous and confusing, so that's what I'm hoping... I'd highly doubt they'd make Rats & Raptors count for strats & schemes and the like.

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