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2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Assuming that my math is correct...

 

I think you have made some large assumptions about hiring. Going on what we have seen, rasputina cost 14. That means you are probably restricted to 4 masters on the table at most, assuming its still 50 ss and your leader is free. 

I will agree that more masters does allow more choices, but the factions aren't all the same size at the moment. 

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

And no one gets super good with ten Masters for a tournament! Most people even now limit themselves to 1-3 Masters in a given faction for a given tournament. Iron Scorpius is a challenge not a competitive advantage.

I feel hurt... 

Although on your other point I'm sure I've seen some models gain and lose cross faction hiring during beta testing. 

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I am, personally, very much against the idea of "need an app to play."

Just because you asked for it, I will make it happen. 

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with allowing players to use apps to make lists in whatever fashion works best for them. I just don't like the idea of making the app mandatory. Some pe

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1 minute ago, Adran said:

I think you have made some large assumptions about hiring. Going on what we have seen, rasputina cost 14. That means you are probably restricted to 4 masters on the table at most, assuming its still 50 ss and your leader is free. 

I will agree that more masters does allow more choices, but the factions aren't all the same size at the moment. 

I was figuring 10 single masters + 45 different 2 master combinations. I was assuming you’d only be able to hire one additional master in a game.

The number of models in each faction differ currently but the number of masters in each faction is the same.

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1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

I was figuring 10 single masters + 45 different 2 master combinations. I was assuming you’d only be able to hire one additional master in a game.

The number of models in each faction differ currently but the number of masters in each faction is the same.

Yes but how does a second master in your crew differ from ashes and dust, or Aionius or Nekima now? You are right that there are a different number of options. That's not automatically unbalanced. For a long time arcanists had the smallest number of henchmen in faction. 

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On 7/26/2018 at 1:04 AM, edopersichetti said:

:+flip for thematic hiring and hopefully this means end of mercs - one of the things I disliked the most was seeing Burt in Nellie crews, Trappers in Neverborn, Johan everywhere, and the like
:+flip for conditions: it’ll help simplify the game and it's a step in the right direction, even though indeed we’ll lose a bit of depth, but it couldn’t be avoided IMHO, it was really starting to be too much
:+flip for storyline progressing and faction reshuffling, it makes the game feel alive and following a story. It's a bummer to lose some masters (and some of the most iconic ones at that!) especially because I had Lilith and Collodi and I love them both. But if nothing else, this gives you a push to explore some other masters (and the new ones look very interesting!) which is always good.
:+flip for remix in playstyles: again, it makes the thing more interesting. Especially since many masters have now drifted so far from how they were intended to work: for example Brewmaster with Poison was sub-par, and to be competitive needed to focus on Swill instead, or Hamelin with Blighted etc.

Some scattered thought about my point of views of some of the above, in order to add my cents to the pocket... ;)

-Thematic crews: I like that the focus will be more on theme, and I thinks the choice of dead-men thing is linked to this (see below). But it's important to me that this will not turn in a closed subset models to be used just with a single master: in different words, the theme focus need to be balanced by enough flexibility to give more options in building crews. Similarly ,I don't think that cutting completely mercs is the best for the game. First, a lot of people have many mercs models that would become unuseful. Second, I think the problem with mercenaries is not their simple existence, but the existence of very generalist effective and cheap models (like Burt or Johan was pre-errata), and the fixed merc tax that let small mercs see very few usefulness compared with biggest ones (+1ss on a 3ss desperate mercenary is an heavy fee, while the same +1ss on the 12ss Aionus is just a small fee to be paid). My suggestion would be to slightly reduce the number of mercs to really necessary ones, and making a variable tax system based on the single model and maybe even the declared faction of the crew, so that a 12ss mercs would cost (let's say) +2ss while the 3ss one could get +0ss fee. This opens up also to things like meking hireble some models just to a smaller subset of factions or with different cost increment...

-Conditions: I think about it people didn't understand the point... As I catch the things, he condition reduction is not linked at all at a brute blunt reduction of the game effects you have to track on the game table. It's just a rationalization for things that works specifically with conditions. At the moment there are a large nmer of game effects of whom many are defined as condition, but many other are not. So the formers a susceptible from condition removal/immunity, while the latters don't. A model like A&D can render unuseful the core mechanics of an entire crew (like Hamelin or Linch), and this is anti-thematic and unfun. So I hink Wyrd wants to make "condition" just those 11 things, while for all other effects plan to use "tokens" that are immune to generalist removing/immunity tools.

-Storyline and "missing" characters: I think on this Wyrd made a qualified decision, and this tells us a lot on how Wyrd intend the game. I like the more linked connection between storyline, games and theme, because it gives an idea of living thing. The masters in the dead-men pool are not out of the game (if they will make what they said, those models will be fully playable even at tournaments, and I have no doubt that a large part of these will allow all masters regardless). But this decision forces players to not ignore completely the fluff of the game, because its backgrounds and storyline have some little reflection on the game as played: hey, why Ramos isn't a "real" master anymore? Oh... he is imprisoned in Vienna??? Really??? Let me read the story about... 😃

So, if Wyrd wants to put the focus on the story, this can be a good call, without really hurting the playability of all masters... ^_^

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52 minutes ago, Adran said:

Although on your other point I'm sure I've seen some models gain and lose cross faction hiring during beta testing. 

I know that at least one faction change has happened that I remember clearly but it wasn't brought on because of balance issues. I might be forgetting some other cases though, so am willing to admit that I'm wrong and that balance-based faction-shuffling has happened. It has been super rare, though, in any case.

(Though of course this beta is going to be way, way, way, way bigger than any before it so who knows how much shuffling will occur this time)

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1 hour ago, yool1981 said:

For example, I'd be keen on getting Hoffman for my Arcanists but there is no statement that KEYWORDS will work cross-faction (although I suppose they will).

Actually, there kind of is.  They said each Master can hire based on their keyword and their faction, if it was just things from their faction that'd be kind of pointless to add in the thing about keyword.  I'm confident that anything we consider "thematic" to the master (like the NVB Lynch models) will be hireable by him even though he won't be NVB anymore, or what would be the point of keeping them NVB at all?  Or playing Marcus in his new NVB role, most of his Beasts (including Myranda) are Arcanists, so would he just lose all access to them in NVB?  I seriously doubt it.

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1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

I was figuring 10 single masters + 45 different 2 master combinations. I was assuming you’d only be able to hire one additional master in a game.

The number of models in each faction differ currently but the number of masters in each faction is the same.

Why limit yourself to 2 master combinations...

Quote

 Ever wanted to run two (or more) Masters together on the tabletop? Now you can!

;)  (Bold is my emphasis)

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1 minute ago, retnab said:

Actually, there kind of is.  They said each Master can hire based on their keyword and their faction, if it was just things from their faction that'd be kind of pointless to add in the thing about keyword. 

Not necessarily...

They said models hired outside of their keyword will cost a penalty... that includes in faction models. So even IF keyword hiring didn't span across faction lines, there would still be a point to having them within faction. But I do think (well, hope) that keywords would span across faction lines.

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I'm confident that anything we consider "thematic" to the master (like the NVB Lynch models) will be hireable by him even though he won't be NVB anymore, or what would be the point of keeping them NVB at all? 

Along those lines, I am curious to see if Beckoners even remain in NB... Lynch is going to 10T and 10T has a new brothel master. They did have the Mimic characteristic, so I could see them staying, but that is one I'm curiously looking toward finding out.

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Or playing Marcus in his new NVB role, most of his Beasts (including Myranda) are Arcanists, so would he just lose all access to them in NVB?  I seriously doubt it.

Given the Order Initiate card has Chimera as a Keyword and plays into Marcus' master bio on the new page, i.e., Mutation Upgrades for beasts and chimera, I'm not sure he will have access to all of the same models as before as there are clearly new models to add to the pool. Perhaps the Beast Characteristic gets toned down as a Keyword to make room for new Chimera Keyword models.

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18 minutes ago, retnab said:
2 hours ago, yool1981 said:

For example, I'd be keen on getting Hoffman for my Arcanists but there is no statement that KEYWORDS will work cross-faction (although I suppose they will).

Actually, there kind of is.  They said each Master can hire based on their keyword and their faction, if it was just things from their faction that'd be kind of pointless to add in the thing about keyword.  I'm confident that anything we consider "thematic" to the master (like the NVB Lynch models) will be hireable by him even though he won't be NVB anymore, or what would be the point of keeping them NVB at all?  Or playing Marcus in his new NVB role, most of his Beasts (including Myranda) are Arcanists, so would he just lose all access to them in NVB?  I seriously doubt it.

This is what I presuppose also but actually Wyrd has not said it would work crossfaction. The Keyword is introduced to keep thematic crews as non-thematic models will be hired at higher cost.

But I think like you that it will be cross-faction, it just has not been confirmed yet.

Additionally, I doubt that Marcus, Levi and even Zoraida will keep the same keywords/hiring pools as they are wide and hard to balance imho. The purpose of this edition is likely also to free design space.

Finally about Lynch, what is the point of keeping Illuminated, depleted or beckoners in NB unless they have a rework in their rules (which, granted, is still possible)? They are Brilliance oriented currently. They could be transferred to 10T.

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1 hour ago, yool1981 said:

Additionally, I doubt that Marcus, Levi and even Zoraida will keep the same keywords/hiring pools as they are wide and hard to balance imho. The purpose of this edition is likely also to free design space.

Considering the example card on the announcement page is Marcus oriented and says CHIMERA with no mention of BEAST, I'd say you are correct

 

*suddenly really glad I didn't start buying all the beasts for Marcus yet

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4 minutes ago, 7thSquirrel said:

Considering the example card on the announcement page is Marcus oriented and says CHIMERA with no mention of BEAST, I'd say you are correct

 

*suddenly really glad I didn't start buying all the beasts for Marcus yet

The Order Initiate is Chimera, but Marcus bio still includes reference to beast.

Quote

With this change in allegiance comes a shift in playstyle: Marcus now actively mutates the beasts and chimera that he brings to a battle via Mutation Upgrades, shaping their attacks and abilities to suit his needs. 

*Bold and underline my emphasis.

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7 minutes ago, 7thSquirrel said:

Considering the example card on the announcement page is Marcus oriented and says CHIMERA with no mention of BEAST, I'd say you are correct

 

*suddenly really glad I didn't start buying all the beasts for Marcus yet

Maybe he gets Beasts in Arcanists and Chimerae in Neverborn? And some models might have both keywords?

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6 minutes ago, Bad Jim said:

Maybe he gets Beasts in Arcanists and Chimerae in Neverborn? And some models might have both keywords?

The Order Initiate card only includes CHIMERA and is Arcanist. My guess is that he loses the BEAST keyword altogether.

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Last week when word about the new edition came out I was a bit shocked because just recently I joked with somebody that's it's high time to do M3E.
Since Wave 5 I've been concerned with model bloat and (broken) scales of balance in the game. Still, it's a normal process for a game to release new content and at some point to start struggling to handle interactions between new and old stuff.
I can tell how and why having invested in some masters or factions heavily quite a few people would feel angry, disappointed or even insulted. I empathize with this as I would also feel #table-flip #rage-quit if I suddenly lost my favorite Master (or three). In fact, I am very lucky in this regard as all seven Masters in my faction (TT) still remain there. I didn't even buy Brewmaster for the second time (already painted, played and sold the crew once) although I was recently contemplating exactly doing that. Good thing many models from Wave 5 were delayed so much (was that a move on your part and not a customs issue, Wyrd? If so, kudos).
Regardless, even if I did get hit heavily with this change, I would salute Wyrd for their bold decision. Sometimes mistakes happen, catering to the masses leads to bonkers designs and balancing tens of models and hundreds of rules and costs becomes daunting to near impossible. The same happens in other projects in real life: At work, during spare time, or with your relationships with other people. When things get tangled up and don't work out for some (or most) involved sides anymore there is only one way not to sink the ship completely but keep sailing: Draw a line, clear things up/streamline, cut off the loose ends. Doesn't mean it's easy, or it's not painful - but it can mean a fresh start for everyone. Go on and continue your life after the dust has settled, with or without.
What's my take from what I read in the announcement and here in the thread:
> Several Masters that dominated their faction, restricted model design and/or could solo win tournaments are not officially in the game anymore after M3E hits. The fact that so many people owned/mained some (or all) of these Masters shows how strong they were. Let's not kid ourselves, many people don't play for the fluff but to win, and stronger Masters allow for more wins. Having to shaft a few Masters entirely shows that they were probably still too much to balance even with a new edition. I'm just wondering why some monsters like Leveticus were left standing - here's to hoping all Masters will have close to equal(ish) viability come M3E.
+ The fluff was actually tailored to follow the design decisions! I don't really read all the stories (not a fan of the way they are told), but I always want to know what happened. I'm especially happy that things evolve and Masters (and their affiliations) change. This really helps get into the themes, aesthetic and feeling of the game, which is what initially drew me to the game. I find that when Malifaux manages to tell a story through it's models, interactions and cleverly named abilities it's at it's best state: Imaginative, flexible and at the same time emotionally gripping.
> Some Masters left their second faction and to me this is actually the bigger game changer. It potentially both changes the model hiring pools and expectations greatly AND demands that new Masters be introduced. Guild gets two whole new Masters and I'm super stoked for them - I'd love to boss around with Colonel Dashel and to set ambushes with Cornelius Basse. Before this change even the presence of Lucius (my second most beloved Master in the game even before the errata level-up) in Guild could not make me play Guild; I had quite a few models from the faction but sold them all as I wasn't having fun.
+ The above also means that keyword hiring could be a great idea - many Masters already had infiltration and the like. I suspect the new keywords would work just like that. This also protects from having to balance models against all Masters as there will be a penalty when out of theme. I love thematic crews, having spent about 400$ for all Oni, Foundry and Monks I didn't previously have feels like a reward now even though I've not yet painted and played them :P
+ I'm glad there will still be 'Versatile' models all Masters in the faction can hire without penalty. This not only thematically ties the faction, but could help feel niches in crews (and of course, all Masters should still be able to play the Emissaries ^^). Previously most optimized crews were a hodge-podge of the best models the faction could offer, now we can either do away with this or get the penalty if we want to borrow stronger models from someone else.
- Borrowing models in-faction with a different keyword would have a penalty: This is not bad per-se, what could be bad would be having many models you won't ever play again because you like or want one or two Masters. This means many models sitting on the shelf, which is actually a part of what Wyrd should be trying to prevent. The penalty could be losing some options for your model if you're not playing in-theme, or hiring in-theme models could be encouraged and a bit cheaper by itself. Let's see how this one is handled :)
- It really sucks to be a in a faction where a lot of Masters were shafted or retained their other faction if dual. Really, this is actually the bigger shift. Removed Masters you can still play with your buddies. In fact, if I were a TO I would gladly let you play with the Dead Man's Hand Masters, or use them as proxies for the new arrivals - Lilith as Nekima, Nicodem as Von Shtook... However, when a Master (and a playstyle option) is no longer in the faction. it's just GONE. Hopefully reworked rules and new Masters will counter this while retaining the UNIQUE feel and playstyle of the faction. Is it really Guild if you're not fielding a lot of slow, shooty models? Or Ressers if you're not summoning a lot of slow, haunting undead? Or Neverborn, if you are fielding a crew with Angel Eyes, Lazarus and Trapper instead of waiting to pounce and Terrify them from the brush?
+ Mercenaries being removed is a bummer in a way and a relief even more. Most mercs were not bought, while some were too good with the tax as well. Makes managing and designing even more difficult and convoluted. As a bonus, now I could finally put my Special Edition Performer and Special Edition Lazarus up for sale (on a discount) as I don't have to worry anymore for which crew to fit and paint them :P
- I don't like the fact that the cards won't be in the current standard size format. I can imagine several reasons why this would be changed. Doesn't mean I iike it (nor that I would stop playing because of this).
- - Having closer deployments, more movement and longer ranges is actually HUGE. This could very well oversimplify the game and push it towards a generic skirmish. Part of Malifaux's great charm is playing for interesting and often clashing strategies and schemes, carefully choosing your crew, considering interactions and planning potential moves. If the game turns into a beat-em-up I could very well lose interest in it altogether, cool minis and themes or not. I'd really like to be able to participate in the Beta even if it's just to be able to warn against potential mistakes in gameplay/stat changes.
> Finally, It's a given that most existing players would not buy new models even at GenCon after this announcement, while most potential players will stand on the sidelines and see how this goes. Some will even be alienated because of Master, rule and gameplay changes. What's most important is that the game emerges better and community can have more fun after the change. In any case, I am still buying Gwynneth Maddox, Alt Ototo, Alt Graves and Alt Tannen not because I -have- to, but because I -want- to :D

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6 hours ago, WWHSD said:

The information on the M3E website insdicates that all of the new stats will be added to the app for free, will be available to download and print, or can be purchased as part of faction packs. They will also be sending M3E cards to stores and distributors to update the models that they have in stock.

Exactly what I said ;)

On the app: yes. Download and print yourself: sure. But the actual cards no, those you have to buy. So yes, I'll probably move to app only or print my own, so I can have them in a decent size too!

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21 minutes ago, MunkyMuddFace said:

With the focus to keyword hiring, i wonder if Marlena, Serena, and Ferdinand will get keyword soup to work with all of the masters they encountered in their respective stories.

I suspect they’ll just be versatile plus a couple of other keywords such as Mimic for Ferdinand.

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3 hours ago, SunTsu said:

Some scattered thought about my point of views of some of the above, in order to add my cents to the pocket... ;)

-Thematic crews: I like that the focus will be more on theme, and I thinks the choice of dead-men thing is linked to this (see below). But it's important to me that this will not turn in a closed subset models to be used just with a single master: in different words, the theme focus need to be balanced by enough flexibility to give more options in building crews. Similarly ,I don't think that cutting completely mercs is the best for the game. First, a lot of people have many mercs models that would become unuseful. Second, I think the problem with mercenaries is not their simple existence, but the existence of very generalist effective and cheap models (like Burt or Johan was pre-errata), and the fixed merc tax that let small mercs see very few usefulness compared with biggest ones (+1ss on a 3ss desperate mercenary is an heavy fee, while the same +1ss on the 12ss Aionus is just a small fee to be paid). My suggestion would be to slightly reduce the number of mercs to really necessary ones, and making a variable tax system based on the single model and maybe even the declared faction of the crew, so that a 12ss mercs would cost (let's say) +2ss while the 3ss one could get +0ss fee. This opens up also to things like meking hireble some models just to a smaller subset of factions or with different cost increment...

-Conditions: I think about it people didn't understand the point... As I catch the things, he condition reduction is not linked at all at a brute blunt reduction of the game effects you have to track on the game table. It's just a rationalization for things that works specifically with conditions. At the moment there are a large nmer of game effects of whom many are defined as condition, but many other are not. So the formers a susceptible from condition removal/immunity, while the latters don't. A model like A&D can render unuseful the core mechanics of an entire crew (like Hamelin or Linch), and this is anti-thematic and unfun. So I hink Wyrd wants to make "condition" just those 11 things, while for all other effects plan to use "tokens" that are immune to generalist removing/immunity tools.

-Storyline and "missing" characters: I think on this Wyrd made a qualified decision, and this tells us a lot on how Wyrd intend the game. I like the more linked connection between storyline, games and theme, because it gives an idea of living thing. The masters in the dead-men pool are not out of the game (if they will make what they said, those models will be fully playable even at tournaments, and I have no doubt that a large part of these will allow all masters regardless). But this decision forces players to not ignore completely the fluff of the game, because its backgrounds and storyline have some little reflection on the game as played: hey, why Ramos isn't a "real" master anymore? Oh... he is imprisoned in Vienna??? Really??? Let me read the story about... 😃

So, if Wyrd wants to put the focus on the story, this can be a good call, without really hurting the playability of all masters... ^_^

I agree with your cents, although I personally would prefer to axe mercs entirely - which I think is what Wyrd is going to do. Too difficult to balance, and the idea of "filling the gaps" with models from another faction is very dangerous, and leads to ridiculous situations like Trappers+Changeling in Neverborn, and the like. It also goes completely against the thematic idea that Wyrd is seeming to pursue.

As for your point about thematic crews, I wouldn't worry: in fact, it can only get better. Right now, for each faction there is *already* a closed subset of models that are optimal, and that's what everyone uses. Ask any Neverborn player how many times they fielded Wicked Dolls, or have you seen a Bayou Gator at all in any Gremlins crew? Nope. But I can recite by memory the "standard" Neverborn all stars: Nekima, Graves, Doppelganger, Pukeworm etc. For Gremlins, you see the likes of Trixie, Merris, Frank/Burt (pre-nerf) etc. in every second crew.
So I think thematic crews will actually improve things, as now each master has more reasons to hire specific models rather than the "generalist all stars".

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7 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

I agree with your cents, although I personally would prefer to axe mercs entirely - which I think is what Wyrd is going to do. Too difficult to balance, and the idea of "filling the gaps" with models from another faction is very dangerous, and leads to ridiculous situations like Trappers+Changeling in Neverborn, and the like. It also goes completely against the thematic idea that Wyrd is seeming to pursue.

Mason has said as much.

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8 hours ago, Razhem said:

If themed crews are done properly, you can probably pass a book or 2 without getting anything directly sinergistic with your crew whike releasing 2 new masters with their themed pieces....

...As for Dead Man's Hand, I don't expect them to be that balanced in the long run and if they are, I don't expect them to get much support, what I do expect is that all 4 masters will come back in a year or two in some shape or form be it in Malifaux, The other side or both. It's more of a "fluff needs time to get where we want to reintroduce these models, have dmh to tie you over in the meantime". But I could be wrong on this one.

Actually the releases needing to sync up between the two games makes SO much sense I’m going with that for an explanation. It also makes sense of the one nugget of info which made no sense in Broken Promises. I couldn’t figure out why Lilith getting jabbed by a ‘Banished’ would drag her down that badly, but if it means she’s now vulnerable to being dragged through a portal and becoming the invader of a strange land, the archetype she hates with all her Neverborn not-exactly-a-soul...that would be awesome.

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5 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I know that at least one faction change has happened that I remember clearly but it wasn't brought on because of balance issues. I might be forgetting some other cases though, so am willing to admit that I'm wrong and that balance-based faction-shuffling has happened. It has been super rare, though, in any case.

(Though of course this beta is going to be way, way, way, way bigger than any before it so who knows how much shuffling will occur this time)

As we speak Wyrd is assembling a Gen Con booth in Indianapolis heat and humidity. Next week they'll be swamped getting Gen Con orders out. And sometime soon after that the beta is starting (or at least that seems to be my impression). It doesn't strike me such a list could or would be posted any faster than getting the beta out itself so, eh.

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9 hours ago, WWHSD said:

 

There’s a tremendous difference in scale that we’re talking about here. M3E might be putting $60 or $70 worth of models across the entire game into a state where they still have rules to use in casual and select tournament play. When GW scraps a faction, we’re talking about $1000+ armies that no longer have any rules.

Yes. the scale is different but the principle is very much the same. and a lot of people I see aren't just angry because they're losing their favorite master or their faction is losing more than anyone else or something like that - although I do see that. It's just a lot of people disagree on principle with the idea of removing choices from players, or invalidating models that they already own.

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