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Third Edition is Coming!!


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4 hours ago, WWHSD said:

As a prospective player, I'd see how Wyrd is handling this edition change as a positive sign.

New rules will be free.
New model stats will be free (with an option to buy physical cards if you prefer).
Every current model is getting an updated stat card at the release of the new version that is balanced for competitive play.
 

As a prospective player, without any knowledge of Wyrd's prior business practices, or without any accumulated goodwill, I don't think the DMH masters will actually be balanced or allowed, otherwise why bother saying you can't use them in tournaments.  It sounds like a big fat lie designed to keep people thinking the best until the're ready to pull the rug out from under all the people who made purchases between now and then.

 

I left a company (games workshop) that made games and decided to invalidate models. I won't take that risk again.

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There is a HUGE difference between rotating cards out of a CCG format and rotating models out of a miniatures game - namely, player investment.

A player might spend more on a magic deck than on a Malifaux crew, but were any of those cards what drew them into the game in the first place? "Magic looked mildly interesting until I saw Necropotence, now I HAVE to play it."

Does a specific card play a central role in every game someone play with a given deck? Only if they play Commander, which is a non-standard format. Otherwise, someone can easily go a whole game without ever drawing a particular card.

Do CCG players spend hours painting the art for each of the cards themselves, making it their own?

The fact that people accept rotation as part of CCGs but are upset about a handful of models not being tournament legal or part of their faction should show that there is a world of difference in player investment between the two hobbies. There are people who still refuse to buy any GW products because of Age of Sigmar retiring several factions from Warhammer - is that really a model that anyone thinks Wyrd should follow?

I'm upset because the two factions I play are losing five Master between them, and they aren't even my favorite Masters. If Wyrd was to put, say Perdita and Sonnia "out of rotation" I would quit the game just like a Warhammer player with a Bretonnian army.

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1 hour ago, sirbrokensword said:

As a prospective player, without any knowledge of Wyrd's prior business practices, or without any accumulated goodwill, I don't think the DMH masters will actually be balanced or allowed, otherwise why bother saying you can't use them in tournaments.  It sounds like a big fat lie designed to keep people thinking the best until the're ready to pull the rug out from under all the people who made purchases between now and then.

I left a company (games workshop) that made games and decided to invalidate models. I won't take that risk again.

Well, take it from someone who has been here for a while. Wyrd is a pretty good company who listens to player feedback and if they say something, hold to it. The Masters will be Beta and people will test them. Henchmen will have the choice to include them or not (and most seem to be on the including them side). Bigger tourneys might not, but I suspect most smaller ones will.

Wyrd is not GW.

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I'll say it now, rotating models is a horrible idea in a miniature game, don't expect it. Closest thing you could get is a cycle of card updates for models with some resculpts, but an edition change already pretty much does that.

Yes, rules bloat is a very real danger, and steps are already being taken about that. If themed crews are done properly, you can probably pass a book or 2 without getting anything directly sinergistic with your crew whike releasing 2 new masters with their themed pieces.

This also increases design space by a lot. The rotten belle will be a Seamus and Molly toy, hiring out of them I hope will be enough of a penalty that hirung one in any other master is a bad idea. But in the future it is deemed necessary to get lure into mcmourning crews in theme, they can now release the yappy dog which is packing lure (the main selling point of a belle) without the risk of invalidating the belle.

As for Dead Man's Hand, I don't expect them to be that balanced in the long run and if they are, I don't expect them to get much support, what I do expect is that all 4 masters will come back in a year or two in some shape or form be it in Malifaux, The other side or both. It's more of a "fluff needs time to get where we want to reintroduce these models, have dmh to tie you over in the meantime". But I could be wrong on this one.

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3 hours ago, sirbrokensword said:

As a prospective player, without any knowledge of Wyrd's prior business practices, or without any accumulated goodwill, I don't think the DMH masters will actually be balanced or allowed, otherwise why bother saying you can't use them in tournaments.  It sounds like a big fat lie designed to keep people thinking the best until the're ready to pull the rug out from under all the people who made purchases between now and then.

Fair enough.

The reason for restricting masters from tournaments is that it keeps the number of masters balanced between the factions. It’s unfair for Neverborn to have 10 masters available to choose from while other factions only have 8. If Wyrd doesn’t do something to remove masters from the tournament rotation then everytime they want to add a master they’d need to add seven. Given a few more years and they’re sitting at 14 or masters for each faction.

I don’t see why Wyrd would bother lying about DMH. If they would have just annouced that all of the DMH masters and their totems were becoming legal proxies for the new masters, it likely would have received a warmer reception than DMH has and it would have required next to no work.

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3 hours ago, Allandrel said:

There are people who still refuse to buy any GW products because of Age of Sigmar retiring several factions from Warhammer - is that really a model that anyone thinks Wyrd should follow?

 

There’s a tremendous difference in scale that we’re talking about here. M3E might be putting $60 or $70 worth of models across the entire game into a state where they still have rules to use in casual and select tournament play. When GW scraps a faction, we’re talking about $1000+ armies that no longer have any rules.

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4 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Rules: yes. Stats: online maybe, but yeah they won't be giving free cards to anybody. Which is just as well, because if they really are going with the gigantic dumb cards, I don't wanna get near those things anyway.

The information on the M3E website insdicates that all of the new stats will be added to the app for free, will be available to download and print, or can be purchased as part of faction packs. They will also be sending M3E cards to stores and distributors to update the models that they have in stock.

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Wait a minute... will the new stat cards be a different size to the ones we have now? 😶

That would both suck AND blow. 500 sleeves I can throw in the trash, a huge binder with colored pages for each of the 6 factions I have I can also throw in the trash.

I really hope that's just a rumor? 😥

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30 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

The reason for restricting masters from tournaments is that it keeps the number of masters balanced between the factions. It’s unfair for Neverborn to have 10 masters available to choose from while other factions only have 8. If Wyrd doesn’t do something to remove masters from the tournament rotation then everytime they want to add a master they’d need to add seven. Given a few more years and they’re sitting at 14 or masters for each faction.

How would it be unfair? Having 10 Masters to choose from doesn't give an edge to a Faction over one who has only eight. The balance is nowhere near that tight. And no one gets super good with ten Masters for a tournament! Most people even now limit themselves to 1-3 Masters in a given faction for a given tournament. Iron Scorpius is a challenge not a competitive advantage.

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20 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

But if those keywords change at all between then and the official release they'll be fanning the flames.

Then don't change them! There are lots of things which are locked down about models when going to beta. I can't recall any models changing Factions based on beta testing, for example. So lock the keywords down and if something is off balance-wise, change something other than the keyword.

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28 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

There’s a tremendous difference in scale that we’re talking about here. M3E might be putting $60 or $70 worth of models across the entire game into a state where they still have rules to use in casual and select tournament play. When GW scraps a faction, we’re talking about $1000+ armies that no longer have any rules.

My Collodi crew has the crewbox, Stitched Togethers, Bunrakus, Mysterious Emissary, Changelings, four Effigies, and Lazarus. That's quite a bit more than $60 or $70. It's not at a WHFB army level but you're still talking about $200+. Now, because I have way more minis than sense I can still probably get some use out of some of those but if Collodi was my only Neverborn Master, then it would be quite a blow.

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21 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

Wait a minute... will the new stat cards be a different size to the ones we have now? 😶

That would both suck AND blow. 500 sleeves I can throw in the trash, a huge binder with colored pages for each of the 6 factions I have I can also throw in the trash.

I really hope that's just a rumor? 😥

I dont think its a rumor. While I’m very positive about 3rd edition, being a designer makes me think the card decision is a wrong decision. They should work on removing quantity of text not increasing card size. Standards in these cases are important, gives flexibility. Bigger sizes mean more text, new /different binders/ sleeves, new boxes to hold stuff etc. I understand business but in this case I believe it maybe a mistake. But i won’t “die” because of it :)

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33 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Then don't change them! There are lots of things which are locked down about models when going to beta. I can't recall any models changing Factions based on beta testing, for example. So lock the keywords down and if something is off balance-wise, change something other than the keyword.

It's happened... Not sure if how much was because of the testing or the design team/fluff writers though. 

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11 minutes ago, Da Git said:

It's happened... Not sure if how much was because of the testing or the design team/fluff writers though. 

As I said, I can't recall it happening because of beta testing. Maybe I'm forgetting something but I can't recall any faction changes which were because of rules.

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2 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

As I said, I can't recall it happening because of beta testing. Maybe I'm forgetting something but I can't recall any faction changes which were because of rules.

Faction has happened and I certainly remember a very big swap, though it was earlyish testing for new models. Characteristic changes have also most definitely changed on testing, onryo did not start with retainer nor did Izamu with spirit.

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12 minutes ago, Razhem said:

Faction has happened and I certainly remember a very big swap, though it was earlyish testing for new models.

Was it in beta? And because of gameplay aspects as opposed to the model getting a re-write in fluff/art? I think I've been in every beta but I can't recall that one.

That said, the point still stands - you can lock down stuff if you want and then simply keep it unchanged no matter what.

12 minutes ago, Razhem said:

Characteristic changes have also most definitely changed on testing, onryo did not start with retainer nor did Izamu with spirit.

Oh, most definitely. But those weren't so central in M2e as they appear to be in M3e.

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1 minute ago, Math Mathonwy said:

That said, the point still stands - you can lock down stuff if you want and then simply keep it unchanged no matter what.

But then you're sacrificing a potential tool for balancing to satisfy people's curiosity.

I'd imagine the keywords are fairly set already but if I were Wyrd I'd rather keep people in the dark than give them assurances if there was any chance at all of them changing between now and release.

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On 7/26/2018 at 12:13 AM, WWHSD said:

I do wonder if there will be something along the lines of all models having 2 AP and the crew's Leader getting a third AP so that in a crew with Multiple masters only one of them has the third AP.

Really, we're speaking of nothing just now, since we have ahead a very long beta that will change everything multiple times, and overmore we even don't know what are the rules we will start from moving on...

That said, I don't understand why so much panic and overthinking about unuseful things...

What's the problem in having 2 or even 3 masters in a crew, assuming they will be balanced with their respective costs? First, giving a cost to masters simplify things, since cache system is just an unuseful complication and another data to be taken in account when playing games. Second, from a narrative point of view, it makes a lot of sense that 2 or 3 masters could work togheter in specific operations, and I think this thing missed in Malifaux. Third, I think that speaking negative about something in a so axiamatic way whithout aven know any single detail it's just a waste of time and sterile exercise: I mean, let's says just for hypothesis the new malifaux would be played on 100ss, and masters would cost 30ss less or more... Is this balanced? Unbalanced? It's OP to takes multiple masters in the same crew??? Who knows....!!! My suggestion? Let's wait for the beta testing at least to start in order to enters in such details discussion...

My two cents. ^_^

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2 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

But then you're sacrificing a potential tool for balancing to satisfy people's curiosity.

It's a bit more than curiosity though, it's more about planning painting & purchasing.

Personally I won't purchase anything Wyrd until I know more about what I will actually be able to play in M3E. For example, I'd be keen on getting Hoffman for my Arcanists but there is no statement that KEYWORDS will work cross-faction (although I suppose they will). Additionally, there is no guarantee that his keyword will simply be "construct" (it would make sense for Wyrd to limit hiring pools to keep design space for later and avoid the Nico or Levi syndrome). So all those Guild constructs in his starter set may not be useful at all.

Same thing for NB, I won't purchase Hinamatsu as I don't know with who she will work. I will also avoid painting Tannen until I am sure he is hirable in NB. Bultungins seem a safe bet though.

I just bought Cyclops but I don't think I would have done so had I known about Euripides 2 months ago because of the high risk of finding them in the crewbox.

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1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

My Collodi crew has the crewbox, Stitched Togethers, Bunrakus, Mysterious Emissary, Changelings, four Effigies, and Lazarus. That's quite a bit more than $60 or $70. It's not at a WHFB army level but you're still talking about $200+. Now, because I have way more minis than sense I can still probably get some use out of some of those but if Collodi was my only Neverborn Master, then it would be quite a blow.

As far as the information we’ve been given,  only Collodi and his totem are going into the DMH. If Collodi is your only master, you probably aren’t playing in tournaments so Collodi being a DMH model is irrelevant.

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11 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

As far as the information we’ve been given,  only Collodi and his totem are going into the DMH. If Collodi is your only master, you probably aren’t playing in tournaments so Collodi being a DMH model is irrelevant.

Collodi is the only Master I've played in tournaments when I've been playing Neverborn and I've only lost one game with her doing that (a finals game against pre-nerf Nicodem). She is very capable of being soloed in tournaments and allows one to pack a light bag (as I did when I went to a tournament in Sweden) :) 

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1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

How would it be unfair? Having 10 Masters to choose from doesn't give an edge to a Faction over one who has only eight. The balance is nowhere near that tight. And no one gets super good with ten Masters for a tournament! Most people even now limit themselves to 1-3 Masters in a given faction for a given tournament. Iron Scorpius is a challenge not a competitive advantage.

Assuming that my math is correct, in a faction with 10 masters to choose from in M3E, there are 55 possible master combinations that could be played. If there’s a big difference on which master is the primary master of the crew that’s more like 100 combinations. A faction with only 8 masters is at 36 (or 64). 

 

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8 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Collodi is the only Master I've played in tournaments when I've been playing Neverborn and I've only lost one game with her doing that (a finals game against pre-nerf Nicodem). She is very capable of being soloed in tournaments and allows one to pack a light bag (as I did when I went to a tournament in Sweden) :) 

I’d be willing to bet that the number of players that only own Collodi and travel internationally to play is tournaments is probably small enough that Wyrd could foot the bill for replacing Collodi with the master of their choice.

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4 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Assuming that my math is correct, in a faction with 10 masters to choose from in M3E, there are 55 possible master combinations that could be played. If there’s a big difference on which master is the primary master of the crew that’s more like 100 combinations. A faction with only 8 masters is at 38 (or 66). 

 

But if we think this way, for my point of view it is unfair that Ressutections, Arcanist and Neverborn are losing first original masters and Guilg doesn't lose any? Also even Neverborn losing most? 

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50 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Was it in beta? And because of gameplay aspects as opposed to the model getting a re-write in fluff/art? I think I've been in every beta but I can't recall that one.

That said, the point still stands - you can lock down stuff if you want and then simply keep it unchanged no matter what.

Oh, most definitely. But those weren't so central in M2e as they appear to be in M3e.

The change was due to theme and practicality of hiring options. But those things happen is what I'm emphasizing. I'm convinced characteristics will also change during testing, specially with the versitale characteristic.

As for tjose saying they won't buy anything, good, you shouldn't. It's on Wyrd to decide if the give information that is subject to change to incentivise purchases, I wouldn't do it personally and just accept that there will be a drop in sales from Malifaux till 3rd comes out and is sort of a passive nudge to get people who want to spend to jump into the other side train.

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