Third Edition is Coming!!

[marke83]

Balance is not the biggest thing determining whether a game is competitive. Good balance is almost impossible to achieve with these type of games anyway. Furthermore, it can be later adjusted to half-decent state with relative ease.

For me, at least, the competitiveness in miniature games comes from how informed choices on the battlefield affect the outcome of the game, and the complexity of said choices. If the choices are hard to make, adaptable and don't include much random factors, little else is needed to make a great game. Model balance is just gravy. Malifaux already succeeds in this pretty well, and this is why it feels somewhat balanced, even if some models are way above the curve per point in their so-called roles (beater, scheme runner etc). Even the worst model can place a scheme marker, and the biggest threat can be nullified with cards.

[WWHSD]

5 minutes ago, marke83 said:

Even the worst model can place a scheme marker ...

Unless they're Insignificant. 

Mouse says "Hi".

[Kyris]

9 hours ago, Lalochezia said:

Ravenguard are very hard to paint. People underestimate how hard it is to paint pure black or pure white.

Also, I am very excited to see the new giant prophet Neverborn master.

I wouldn't even say it's Hard. At least not for me; White used to be very hard for me but i've gotten a lot better at it.

it's just that it's very minute details. I usually don't bother edge highlighting unless I have to. But, since their armor is pure black, the only really way to add depth(which, usually i get from shading), is to edge highlight every, little detail.

[Justin]

3 minutes ago, Kyris said:

I wouldn't even say it's Hard. At least not for me; White used to be very hard for me but i've gotten a lot better at it.

it's just that it's very minute details. I usually don't bother edge highlighting unless I have to. But, since their armor is pure black, the only really way to add depth(which, usually i get from shading), is to edge highlight every, little detail.

True, there is a distinction between hard as in "that takes a lot of skill" and hard as in "that takes a lot of work."

Painting Ravenwing drove me nuts. Nothing but white and black.

[Gnomezilla]

*gives @yool1981 a big hug for not just talking about his worries about models, but making a list and planning with it, making worry less*

And it’s a short list, too. Wyrd wouldn’t have to reveal everything, just pick out even a few of those models in limbo and hint what faction/master they will pair with. (My big question is Hinamatsu. I can see that and the other puppets not have a keyword hiring any more and just be versatile in-faction, but we would like to know and be sure.) (even if I cannot imagine Marcus with murder-puppets following him, no matter how hard I try)

[Zebo]

Just bought and mounted some Seishins, and before painting, I'm asking me if Anna Lovelace is still summoning them in M3E

[muraki]

Been checking this thread on and off.  Thanks Mason for giving answers to a lot of people's questions. I love that this company cares and responds to the community so quickly and thoughtfully... Specially on something that's not even in beta yet.

Super looking forward to m3e.  I'm sure the changes will make me wanna pick up the masters I don't currently own (and new boxes for the ones I do own to get new sculpts / models ).

[Bad Jim]

7 hours ago, yool1981 said:

New Crewboxes contents are not known either. I really hope there is no Cyclop in Euripides' crewbox or I'll be very disappointed.

 

I think it’s unlikely. There don’t seem to be many models that fit easily into a frost giant theme, so my guess is that a lot of the new releases for Neverborn will be designed for him.

[ehren37]

18 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Okay, but by doing nothing they "invalidate" competitive play whereas this way you still have perfectly "valid" rules for your models in casual and semi-competitive settings.

I played casual MtG for years, the changing format didn't somehow "invalidate" any of my purchases. 

It takes a hell of a lot less time and effort to open a pack and sleeve a card than get a figure on the tabletop. Mini rotations would kill 3rd edition.

[WWHSD]

2 minutes ago, ehren37 said:

It takes a hell of a lot less time and effort to open a pack and sleeve a card than get a figure on the tabletop..

But can be a lot more expensive. 

It always amazes me that people pay that much for cards.

[admiralvorkraft]

Even playing casually I sunk more money into Magic than I have into Malifaux.

And again, without minis rotation - or some other measure to control bloat - the competitive side of the game is dead.

[Justin]

22 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

But can be a lot more expensive. 

It always amazes me that people pay that much for cards.

Yeah, even though a single model is way more expensive than a single card, minis games are, on average, way cheaper than CCGs.

[MCOLL81]

1 minute ago, Lalochezia said:

Yeah, even though a single model is way more expensive than a single card, minis games are, on average, way cheaper than CCGs.

There are definitely single CCG cards that sell for more than a single mini... even after adding in a commission painter. 

[Paddywhack]

14 hours ago, McSkip said:

I only hope M3E comes fast. I see no point in purchasing anything new untill I see the final version of M3E with the keywords. And I think the majority of the player base think that too. So when Wyrd want to stay in the business - make it happen fast

Well....fast..but quality. I understand being tentative on some purchases, but I still plan on buying Little Gassers, Grave Diggers, and a couple of other things as I like the models. If I don't end up having the right master it may kick me into gear to look into that master in the future  

[sirbrokensword]

20 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Okay, but by doing nothing they "invalidate" competitive play whereas this way you still have perfectly "valid" rules for your models in casual and semi-competitive settings.

I played casual MtG for years, the changing format didn't somehow "invalidate" any of my purchases. 

That's a very misleading thing to say.  If competitive play is to complicated right now, then they could use the new edition to simplify the models, to reduce unique rules on models, and keep them all still playable.  As a player who was just about to buy in. I'm not going to now. I'm not wasting my money. Maybe in a few years I'll check back.

[WWHSD]

3 hours ago, sirbrokensword said:

As a player who was just about to buy in. I'm not going to now. I'm not wasting my money. Maybe in a few years I'll check back.

As a prospective player, I'd see how Wyrd is handling this edition change as a positive sign.

New rules will be free.
New model stats will be free (with an option to buy physical cards if you prefer).
Every current model is getting an updated stat card at the release of the new version that is balanced for competitive play.
 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I wonder what changed their mind about free stat cards. They’ve been adamant about not posting model rules for free for the entirety of Malifaux. I support their decision either way as there are good arguments for both, but I’d be interested in what changed their mind.

[Stonewall78]

Just now, Fetid Strumpet said:

I wonder what changed their mind about free stat cards. They’ve been adamant about not posting model rules for free for the entirety of Malifaux. I support their decision either way as there are good arguments for both, but I’d be interested in what changed their mind.

They will just not likely give away the cards for the new models coming out. They had card packs for 2E when it came out after all, this will just be cheaper for those who wish to have physical cards. Likely a boon for those who just use the app. Personally I am not worried about the change, its all good and healthy for the game.

[admiralvorkraft]

2 hours ago, sirbrokensword said:

That's a very misleading thing to say.  If competitive play is to complicated right now, then they could use the new edition to simplify the models, to reduce unique rules on models, and keep them all still playable.  As a player who was just about to buy in. I'm not going to now. I'm not wasting my money. Maybe in a few years I'll check back.

I don't think it's misleading. Clelaning up the rules will help but over time it is impossible to have a game that is balanced for competitive play if you consistently release new models each year and don't do anything about bloat. And it happens faster with a game like Malifaux that is fundamentally built around TCG style combos than it does in a game like Infinity where the focus is more on positioning and maneuver.

If Wyrd is serious about competitive gaming then they need to either massively slow down their release schedule (which may be a hard sell from a profits perspective) or they need to control bloat by rotating models out of standard play by some mechanism. 

[Saduhem]

1 hour ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I don't think it's misleading. Clelaning up the rules will help but over time it is impossible to have a game that is balanced for competitive play if you consistently release new models each year and don't do anything about bloat. And it happens faster with a game like Malifaux that is fundamentally built around TCG style combos than it does in a game like Infinity where the focus is more on positioning and maneuver.

If Wyrd is serious about competitive gaming then they need to either massively slow down their release schedule (which may be a hard sell from a profits perspective) or they need to control bloat by rotating models out of standard play by some mechanism. 

Given how synergistic Malifaux is, a model rotation might not be feasible and, if implemented, could probably make players upset. With the cross faction keyword hiring coming, putting some models in rotation might feel like stripping cogs from a machine and bringing it to an awkward halt.

I think Dead Man's Hand is simply what Mason said, a group of Masters that are absent in the lore together with their totems. I don't think it's the beginning of a rotation system. 

It could also be a Limbo where such Masters exist until they decide whether or not new story developments (And sales opportunities) bring them around again, but even this is just speculation.

Or it could very well be that this is indeed the beginning of a rotation system and I'm just reading things the wrong way!

 

[admiralvorkraft]

3 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

Given how synergistic Malifaux is, a model rotation might not be feasible and, if implemented, could probably make players upset. With the cross faction keyword hiring coming, putting some models in rotation might feel like stripping cogs from a machine and bringing it to an awkward halt.

It's exactly the synergistic nature of Malifaux that (in my mind) requires a rotation. Otherwise there's no getting away from overpowered interactions, and no way for players to hold a reasonable picture of the game as a whole in their head. 

It's not unplayable at the moment, but coming back to the game I've pretty much limited myself to the original three Guild masters with the idea that I can just blow anything I don't recognize off the table. Reading tournament reports, following podcasts, etc it looks like metas globally have seen a similar paradigm shift. There's too much going on in this game that will blow you away if you try to play for points, so you better just table your opponent and score later.

Streamlining conditions will help shift the dial back towards Malifaux over Murderfaux but you can't really get away from the fundamental problem of bloat. Too many interactions to anticipate and test properly, leading to more errata, leading to more untested combinations gumming up the release schedule and bogging down the competitive scene in a morass of same-y aggro lists.

But again, if Wyrd isn't doing this for the health of the tournament circuit then I totally get why people are upset.

[edopersichetti]

6 hours ago, MCOLL81 said:

There are definitely single CCG cards that sell for more than a single mini... even after adding in a commission painter. 

Yeah, that's f... up

3 hours ago, WWHSD said:

As a prospective player, I'd see how Wyrd is handling this edition change as a positive sign.

New rules will be free.
New model stats will be free (with an option to buy physical cards if you prefer).
Every current model is getting an updated stat card at the release of the new version that is balanced for competitive play.
 

Rules: yes. Stats: online maybe, but yeah they won't be giving free cards to anybody. Which is just as well, because if they really are going with the gigantic dumb cards, I don't wanna get near those things anyway.

13 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

It's exactly the synergistic nature of Malifaux that (in my mind) requires a rotation. Otherwise there's no getting away from overpowered interactions, and no way for players to hold a reasonable picture of the game as a whole in their head. 

It's not unplayable at the moment, but coming back to the game I've pretty much limited myself to the original three Guild masters with the idea that I can just blow anything I don't recognize off the table. Reading tournament reports, following podcasts, etc it looks like metas globally have seen a similar paradigm shift. There's too much going on in this game that will blow you away if you try to play for points, so you better just table your opponent and score later.

Streamlining conditions will help shift the dial back towards Malifaux over Murderfaux but you can't really get away from the fundamental problem of bloat. Too many interactions to anticipate and test properly, leading to more errata, leading to more untested combinations gumming up the release schedule and bogging down the competitive scene in a morass of same-y aggro lists.

But again, if Wyrd isn't doing this for the health of the tournament circuit then I totally get why people are upset.

I agree, bloat is a problem, I hope they'll find a way around this - new models for new masters, and changing existing things will do for a while, I suspect. I'm going to be buying a lot of models for two of my masters that suddenly became dual faction (Marcus and Zipp) for example.

But I disagree that the best tactics is table your opponent - sure killing helps but I've won many a game actually playing for points, which I suspect was always the intention. Killing crucial models, sure. Table the opponent? Completely unnecessary. Murderfaux is just boring...might as well play Age of Stupidmar if all one wants to do is kill the opponent. And PLEASE PLEASE let's stop even remotely invoking the MtG model - I used to play Magic, back in 1994, when it was still just a wonderful game and not a soulless, boring, immoral money machine. That simply cannot happen to a miniature game, so I hope it'll never happen to Faux

[sirbrokensword]

4 hours ago, WWHSD said:

As a prospective player, I'd see how Wyrd is handling this edition change as a positive sign.

New rules will be free.
New model stats will be free (with an option to buy physical cards if you prefer).
Every current model is getting an updated stat card at the release of the new version that is balanced for competitive play.
 

As a prospective player, without any knowledge of Wyrd's prior business practices, or without any accumulated goodwill, I don't think the DMH masters will actually be balanced or allowed, otherwise why bother saying you can't use them in tournaments.  It sounds like a big fat lie designed to keep people thinking the best until the're ready to pull the rug out from under all the people who made purchases between now and then.

 

I left a company (games workshop) that made games and decided to invalidate models. I won't take that risk again.

[Allandrel]

There is a HUGE difference between rotating cards out of a CCG format and rotating models out of a miniatures game - namely, player investment.

A player might spend more on a magic deck than on a Malifaux crew, but were any of those cards what drew them into the game in the first place? "Magic looked mildly interesting until I saw Necropotence, now I HAVE to play it."

Does a specific card play a central role in every game someone play with a given deck? Only if they play Commander, which is a non-standard format. Otherwise, someone can easily go a whole game without ever drawing a particular card.

Do CCG players spend hours painting the art for each of the cards themselves, making it their own?

The fact that people accept rotation as part of CCGs but are upset about a handful of models not being tournament legal or part of their faction should show that there is a world of difference in player investment between the two hobbies. There are people who still refuse to buy any GW products because of Age of Sigmar retiring several factions from Warhammer - is that really a model that anyone thinks Wyrd should follow?

I'm upset because the two factions I play are losing five Master between them, and they aren't even my favorite Masters. If Wyrd was to put, say Perdita and Sonnia "out of rotation" I would quit the game just like a Warhammer player with a Bretonnian army.

[Parker Barrows]

1 hour ago, sirbrokensword said:

As a prospective player, without any knowledge of Wyrd's prior business practices, or without any accumulated goodwill, I don't think the DMH masters will actually be balanced or allowed, otherwise why bother saying you can't use them in tournaments.  It sounds like a big fat lie designed to keep people thinking the best until the're ready to pull the rug out from under all the people who made purchases between now and then.

I left a company (games workshop) that made games and decided to invalidate models. I won't take that risk again.

Well, take it from someone who has been here for a while. Wyrd is a pretty good company who listens to player feedback and if they say something, hold to it. The Masters will be Beta and people will test them. Henchmen will have the choice to include them or not (and most seem to be on the including them side). Bigger tourneys might not, but I suspect most smaller ones will.

Wyrd is not GW.