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On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 12:51 PM, daniello_s said:

Just imagine current Levi players when 'new' Levi won't have Pariah of Iron/Bone up available anymore... All these models in your bag which you can't use anymore...😂

Why is Levi losing Pariah of Iron?

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1 hour ago, Mortarion said:

Allthough I think that the idea of a Guild crew consisting of a captured Ramos leading a bunch of captured Arcanists, Ressers and Neverborn on suicide missions is super awesome and I would buy that crew instantly, I really don't think that most Arcanist players would be less angry if one of their masters was moved to Guild as a prisoner... 😉

I'm still hoping The Council eventually does get around to jailbreaking him so we can get him in TOS (riding the Leviathan like the badass he is in the fluff maybe?), though with them getting last place in Homefront I'm not holding my breath :P 

Am I sad Ramos isn't in the Arcanists anymore? Yeah, especially since he's one of my favourites to play and one of my original two purchases. However, the fact that he's still playable makes that a lot better IMO and I 100% will be playing him still.  And let's be honest, the VAST majority of us don't do official Wyrd tournaments, just casual play or local tourneys, so for almost everyone the change is going to be pretty negligible, especially if you ask your henchmen / TO's to allow DMH masters in your local tourneys.

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18 minutes ago, PirateCaptain said:


Remember, if you have no intention of playing in tournaments then you can continue playing your favorite masters with no issue and everyone will be happy.
 

This is very true. One of our players is heavily invested in Ressurs and loves Nicodem the most. He missed all the initial buzz on Wednesday, the minis day at our shop. Not knowing this, during post game beers I asked him what he thought of the Nico announcement. This was our (paraphrased) exchange:

Me: What do you think about the Nico change.
John: What? That they nerfed his summoning.
Me: (to the table)... Oh, he doesn't know... M3E was announced today, and a handful Masters are out. Nico is one of them.
John: *stares*
Me: But they will still be getting stat cards. They just won't be Tourney legal, unless specifically allowed.
John: *shrugs* That's ok, I'm done with competitive Malifaux anyways. As long as I can play him casually, I am good.
Me: Also, Albus VonSchtook is going to be a new Master.
John: *breaks into a huge grin* Now THAT, I am excited for!

I think the M3E announcement is good, and I do like the way they are handling the missing masters - giving them stat cards makes them playable. I think removing those masters helps open up design space (admittedly, this is very easy for me to say as I am not affected by this). I think that the decision to remove the masters was decided before Book 5, and the fluff of Book 5 was written to align to this decision - rather than they being removed because of the story. I also think this is not the last we have heard from these Masters, and they will return in interesting fashion in future waves. I look forward to seeing how it all plays out.

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I am in the enthousiastic camp regarding the new edition, mainly because I support a game evolving with its fluff and the streamlining of the rules.

 

However, I would like to stress out the following points.

 

1. A mini is not just a mini and price tag. It is time spent on assembling it, basing it and painting it.

For example, as a Neverborn & Arcanist player, I lost 3 painted / assembled masters (Ramos, Lilith, Collodi). As a fan of themes, I suddenly don't know what to do with my little puppets (no master seems to be in theme anymore and out of faction puppets will likely not be available anymore).

Additionally, Lynch being 10T now means that my carefully painted NB coloured Lynch crew is out of place, even if I wanted to dabble into 10T (which I don't want to, 2 factions is enough).

Finally, all the mercs I based & painted in specific NB & Arcanists themes are completely shelved.

I spend 10-20mn/mini to assemble and I spend 4-10h for painting. If I do the math, I lost a big investment in time and efforts (not talking about money...).

 

2. In terms of fluff, I am still annoyed at seeing how much NB got boned compared to other factions, especially Gremlins and 10T.

I loved Lilith's fluff, Collodi & Lynch's themes. Now we have Nekima who has the charisma of an oyster in the stories (zero depth of personally), a frost giant for which I could not care less and Marcus who has not taken an active part of the fluff since... ever (and I already own him in Arcanists so 0 benefit here).

The way the Arcanist lost Ramos was not very coherent in Broken Promises and getting Hoffman does not realy rejoice me as I find him very transparent in the stories.

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I don't want to dismiss people's feelings. But I am a little confused by people who think they "wasted" time painting minis they can't play with now.

Painting the mini is part of the fun. The experience of painting it is part of the value you got out of it, not a cost you paid for it. Otherwise Wyrd could easily release pre-assembled, colored plastics. They don't do that because assembling and painting is part of the value of the minis, not the other way around.

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3 minutes ago, Lalochezia said:

I don't want to dismiss people's feelings. But I am a little confused by people who think they "wasted" time painting minis they can't play with now.

Painting the mini is part of the fun. The experience of painting it is part of the value you got out of it, not a cost you paid for it. Otherwise Wyrd could easily release pre-assembled, colored plastics. They don't do that because assembling and painting is part of the value of the minis, not the other way around.

I paint because i want a nice thing to play on the table.  It is an investment for that playtime.  If I wan'ted it to sit on a shelf, I'd just go buy a toy or statue instead.  

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1 minute ago, MetaphoricDragn said:

I paint because i want a nice thing to play on the table.  It is an investment for that playtime.  If I wan'ted it to sit on a shelf, I'd just go buy a toy or statue instead.  

So you don't enjoy painting? Would you rather play a game with pre-painted models? (Legitimate question, it seems a lot of people see painting as a chore)

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5 minutes ago, MetaphoricDragn said:

I paint because i want a nice thing to play on the table.  It is an investment for that playtime.  If I wan'ted it to sit on a shelf, I'd just go buy a toy or statue instead.   

Yep, same here. Nothing compares to the joy of putting a fully painted crew on the table.

Some people display their minis on shelves, I don't. I paint because I like it but the idea of playing with the minis I paint is what guides me.

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What I am playing drives what I paint. I have hit a wall recently on two fronts: 1 - I paint nearly 100 models in 2017, and I am (still) a bit burnt out (I have painted some, but they have been rushed, and felt like chores). and 2 - Not that I have run out of things to paint, but I have run out of things I want to play that need paint. That said, with the Outcast addition of Zipp, I have a whole new crew to get to in prep for M3E, so that might just be catalyst I need to break this funk!

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19 minutes ago, MunkyMuddFace said:

What I am playing drives what I paint. I have hit a wall recently on two fronts: 1 - I paint nearly 100 models in 2017, and I am (still) a bit burnt out (I have painted some, but they have been rushed, and felt like chores). and 2 - Not that I have run out of things to paint, but I have run out of things I want to play that need paint. That said, with the Outcast addition of Zipp, I have a whole new crew to get to in prep for M3E, so that might just be catalyst I need to break this funk!

I'm kinda torn right now.

I want to start Neverborn and I'd love to paint Titania, but I'm not gonna play again until third comes out. And I have a bunch of ToS Abyssinia stuff on the way from the KS which I can paint, but I don't have it *now*. And I could pick up Titania and paint her now...

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On 7/25/2018 at 12:51 PM, Kyris said:

false dilemma. You can advance the story and the game mechanics without risking pissing off or alienating players who main one of the masters that are now gone, or play a master in a faction that is no longer allowed. i don't see how doing that serves the player base at all.

 

Also. Don't ask questions and assume the answer just to further your own argument. I would absolutely still play malifaux without the lore. The lore is frankly the thing I care the least about. I play Malifaux because its fun, and different enough from other war games that I can play it, and 40K, and other war games without it feeling too much like the same thing.

You are almost certainly in the minority. I got into Malifaux after Mason posted his Kirai from first edition on another forum years ago. As a Henchman, one of the most common ways new players get into Malifaux is to look at the game (either people playing it or a box on the shelf) and become interested. 

I do understand your point and do consider it valid (even if I side with Wyrd on the point, if not some of the choices). But to say that a majority of people would feel as you do and care nothing about the story is stretching it a bit far. I would even guess most people who agree with you care about the story somewhat.

But I understand being bummed. My arguably favorite Master is Lilith. So, here's to waiting for 4E.

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15 minutes ago, Lalochezia said:

I'm kinda torn right now.

I want to start Neverborn and I'd love to paint Titania, but I'm not gonna play again until third comes out. And I have a bunch of ToS Abyssinia stuff on the way from the KS which I can paint, but I don't have it *now*. And I could pick up Titania and paint her now...

Oof, yeah, waiting is the worst!
Usually, when I am in that situation, I will paint the minions because (in my mind) they can get away with the less quality paint job. But in the case of Titania's box, her minions are so characterful that the lower "minion quality" is a disservice to them! But if you work on them now, while the queue is empty, it is a few less things to paint later :)

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I find it interesting that some of the masters descriptions really key off of abilities introduced in the Wave 5 Upgrades. It is like they were prepping us for play style changes that are on the way to being core mechanics for the characters.

Specifically, Lady J (the reference to acrobatics) and Perdita (shooting scheme markers off the table) are the ones that specifically caught my eye. 

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8 minutes ago, MunkyMuddFace said:

Oof, yeah, waiting is the worst!
Usually, when I am in that situation, I will paint the minions because (in my mind) they can get away with the less quality paint job. But in the case of Titania's box, her minions are so characterful that the lower "minion quality" is a disservice to them! But if you work on them now, while the queue is empty, it is a few less things to paint later :)

This is true...

Yeah, a few times I have jumped in and painted the master or other centerpiece first and I get noticeably better by the time I'm on to the minions and they come out better.

 

On 7/25/2018 at 11:51 AM, Kyris said:

false dilemma. You can advance the story and the game mechanics without risking pissing off or alienating players who main one of the masters that are now gone, or play a master in a faction that is no longer allowed. i don't see how doing that serves the player base at all.

 

Also. Don't ask questions and assume the answer just to further your own argument. I would absolutely still play malifaux without the lore. The lore is frankly the thing I care the least about. I play Malifaux because its fun, and different enough from other war games that I can play it, and 40K, and other war games without it feeling too much like the same thing.

I asked the question and assumed the answer because not caring about the story *at all* is sort of a ridiculous position the vast majority of people would disagree with. But, ok, you do you. :)

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20 minutes ago, Parker Barrows said:

You are almost certainly in the minority. I got into Malifaux after Mason posted his Kirai from first edition on another forum years ago. As a Henchman, one of the most common ways new players get into Malifaux is to look at the game (either people playing it or a box on the shelf) and become interested. 

the aesthetic of a game is different from its lore. The aesthetic is absolutely a huge draw. But, I was talking about the lore. the fluff. the story.

Quote

I do understand your point and do consider it valid (even if I side with Wyrd on the point, if not some of the choices). But to say that a majority of people would feel as you do and care nothing about the story is stretching it a bit far. I would even guess most people who agree with you care about the story somewhat.

But I understand being bummed. My arguably favorite Master is Lilith. So, here's to waiting for 4E.

I never claimed that *most people* don't care about the story. I never said anything about what other people like. He wanted to push this argument of "well, would you even play without the lore? no you wouldn't. so clearly the lore is the most important aspect". and apart from pissing me off that he's going to put words in my mouth, assume he knows how I would answer his question and trying to answer for me, he's also just wrong.

To be entirely honest i don't even read the lore. I haven't even bought the 5th wave book because the only thing I wanted out of it was the upgrades, which I just bought the upgrade pack for, the stat cards come with the models anyway so the only thing the wave books do for me is help me plan which models to buy.

5 minutes ago, Lalochezia said:

I asked the question and assumed the answer because not caring about the story *at all* is sort of a ridiculous position the vast majority of people would disagree with. But, ok, you do you. :)

then, respectively, don't ask me a question if you're going to assume the answer and put words in my mouth. If you want my opinion, you're more than free to ask for it. If you want to have a conversation, I am more than happy to have a conversation about the ways in which we agree or disagree on this move on Wyrds part, or anything else, really. But I take exception to this sort of rhetoric.

 

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8 minutes ago, Kyris said:

then, respectively, don't ask me a question if you're going to assume the answer and put words in my mouth. If you want my opinion, you're more than free to ask for it. If you want to have a conversation, I am more than happy to have a conversation about the ways in which we agree or disagree on this move on Wyrds part, or anything else, really. But I take exception to this sort of rhetoric.

 

I think there is a difference between putting words in your mouth and abstracting an argument to absurdity. It seemed a logical assumption you wouldn't be in favor of the absurd argument, but apparently you are. My apologies.

If you don't care about the story *at all* and think it adds *nothing* to the game, we are at such opposite points of view there is very little point in discussion, though you are of course entitled to your opinion.

I legitimately hope your issues are resolved and you get a ton of enjoyment out of 3rd edition. See ya around. :)

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1 hour ago, Lalochezia said:

I don't want to dismiss people's feelings. But I am a little confused by people who think they "wasted" time painting minis they can't play with now.

Painting the mini is part of the fun. The experience of painting it is part of the value you got out of it, not a cost you paid for it. Otherwise Wyrd could easily release pre-assembled, colored plastics. They don't do that because assembling and painting is part of the value of the minis, not the other way around.

Painting, while enjoyable, takes time and effort, and the end goal is playing games with those models. The enjoyment of painting and the time and effort required at best balance each other out. How many game models would sell if they weren't tied to the experience of playing games? The goal is to play games with those models. To reach that goal takes your time and effort with a brush.

By your reasoning, companies like Wyrd should charge even higher prices for their kits, because we aren't just receiving plastic in the box, we get the privilege of spending as few or as many hours as we choose painting them. Painting is not part of the value- especially considering that paints and brushes are not free.

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1 hour ago, Lalochezia said:

I don't want to dismiss people's feelings. But I am a little confused by people who think they "wasted" time painting minis they can't play with now.

Painting the mini is part of the fun. The experience of painting it is part of the value you got out of it, not a cost you paid for it. Otherwise Wyrd could easily release pre-assembled, colored plastics. They don't do that because assembling and painting is part of the value of the minis, not the other way around.

This. I wanted to say something like this yesterday already. I understand some frustration, but the word "waste" is an overstatement.

Sure, people have different priorities, but having relevant rules is not the only way of viewing the value of the product; you bought those models, had some hobby fun with them, perhaps played a little. It felt like the right choice at the time. As for myself, I buy/sell so much minis that I'm rarely emotionally attached to them. It's not about the destination, it's about the journey!

Even if I'm repeating myself, I still think killing off masters is a bad idea, but people thinking their hobby time and 'practice games' are wasted.. well.. have too different way of thinking for me to ever fully understand. 

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3 minutes ago, Lalochezia said:

I think there is a difference between putting words in your mouth and abstracting an argument to absurdity. It seemed a logical assumption you wouldn't be in favor of the absurd argument, but apparently you are. My apologies.

Typical. No one can just apologize or admit they did something wrong, can they? they always have to be a snippy, snide little jerk about it.

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On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 10:11 AM, Mason said:

Excellent question!

Some of the Masters have suffered setbacks that have removed them from Malifaux's stage. Lilith has been imprisoned within Nythera, Nicodem was killed by Lady Justice, Ramos is locked up in a Guild jail cell in Vienna, and Collodi... well, it's final fate hasn't been revealed quite yet.

All of these Masters (and their totems) will receive updated stat cards in M3E in a special "Dead Man's Hand" pack. By default, they will not be tournament legal (due to being absent in the story), but an option will exist to allow these "Dead Man's Hand" Masters to be played in tournaments that wish to allow it.

 

Wondering if there was a plan to have 3rd Edition Tokens made up from Wyrd instead of Independent Sources? Example the 11 Conditions.

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17 minutes ago, Blastaar said:

Painting, while enjoyable, takes time and effort, and the end goal is playing games with those models. 

Trust me, it sometimes really isn't, not even close. I know hobbyists who only talk about gaming, yet they enjoy immensely of planning, hoarding, building, converting and painting crews and armies.

I'm one of those as well, although I do play, but I hate it. Winning is fun, which doesn't happen for me too often, but the actual playing with minis is clunky, laborous and stressful or even boring. (I guess in this case it's not about the journey for me, lol.) Not to mention the constant fear of someone breaking my paintings.

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1 hour ago, Lalochezia said:

So you don't enjoy painting? Would you rather play a game with pre-painted models? (Legitimate question, it seems a lot of people see painting as a chore)

I hate the act of painting, it is a massive chore to me. But I really enjoy the result/fulfillment that comes after it is done and my crew sits on the table.

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1 minute ago, 7thSquirrel said:

I hate the act of painting. But I really enjoy the result/fulfillment that comes after it is done and my crew sits on the table.

For me, it depends on the model Some models are just a pain to paint. Others, are a fun challenge. others, are just enjoyable.

Personally, the fun I have the most, as far as hobbying goes. is planning, and finishing. I like being able to plan out what I'm going to do with my models, how I'm going to theme them and things like that. and then seeing it all come to fruition, and the satisfaction from seeing everything come to together.

the actual painting..well, depends on the model. right now I'm working on some 40K stuff before jumping back into finishing my Malifaux models up, and then going to touch up almost every malifaux model I own. and, I am not having a lot of fun with these models for reasons that are entirely my own fault.

Kids, take it from me. Do NOT paint raven guard unless you really, really like edge highlighting.

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