Third Edition is Coming!!

[Figgyfigs]

24 minutes ago, dope_danny said:

Lotta folks hear 'new edition' of any tabletop game and instantly go 'well i dont know if this will be viable so ill not buy anything between announcement and release'. So you saw companies like GW start to put out free 'legacy rules' to fill the gap. They still expected folks to buy the new product but new keeping existing product tabletop viable is a real sink or swim thing.

This is why I'm hoping Wyrd will release more info on themes and keywords as soon as possible. Knowing that the model you've got your eye on will useable with your favorite master would provide a lot of reassurance for ongoing 2E purchases.

I'm fully prepared to continue buying 2E — the models are great, the game is fun, and I like it — as soon as I know the things I want will still be good choices in the upcoming version of the game.

[SunTsu]

On 7/25/2018 at 8:04 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

Many games kill and permanently mutilate characters in the story a lot and new characters are born from that but the old ones are still playable in the game. Because the games don't really tell a story in the sense that the fluff tells stories. Colette didn't Eliminate the Leadership and kill Nico with the help of Burt and Gracie while Framing Archie for Murder (???). The fluff provides a framework but all games are essentially "what if" style of things. And having dead characters being available for what if scenarios is IMO fine.

I think you essentially missinterpreting Wyrd objectives.

My guess is that Wyrd decision to "remove" some masters from the game is a storydriven decision, but with a strong underlined game designing motivation. That motivation is much more obvious in the reorganization of all the factions (particulary TT), so that with the new M3e we will have a much more rationalized and organized factions than now.

-Ramos was the construct supporter of the Arcanists, and I always asked why Hoffmann was not dual faction. If Hoffman steps in, could emerge some overlapping wit the former, ending up with two masters in the same faction doing basicaly same sort of things...

-Lilith, Nico and Collodi are simply masters that have too broad and generalist playstyles, risking to suffocating the others: in resser if you want let emerge a new evocation style you cannot compete with Nicodem, Lilith and Collodi simply do everything better in most situation. Obviously nothing prevent, in the future, to introduce a coming back of all these characters: Ramos and Lilith can escape, Nico can became an undead, and so on. In that case you will ending up an old-but-new master with a new playstyle that will do completely different things. Or maybe not... Who knows??? I like surprises, let yourself be surprised by the story...

-About factions, now it's difficult to complete a single faction without buying a significant portion of other factions' models. While it's an interesting mechanics to let players fishing in others pools, my impression is that this point runned a bit out of control... For example if you want to complete TTs, essentially you will end up to get a quater of models from other factions, that you can use just with a sngle master (and not everytime). So this let players be "forced" to buy more than what they want to buy (completing all the fation of the game) or buy some models that will see very little use, after all. Now that every faction have 2-3 dual master factions, things are more equilibrates and I feel it's better for the game while leaving intact the playing experience to use a small selections of models from different factions. This can hurt someone? Sure! I have a completely painted crew of the Brewmaster and I don't play gremlins (not to mention other things...). But if you want to let the game "younger and in health you need to stir a little the water from time to time... And if you don't makes change in occasion of a new edition (that it was required at the moment...), when?

 

So, finally, my thoughts are that those changes are surely justified by the story. But in the end are a way to realize a game designing project.

My two cents.

[Figgyfigs]

I'd love to see Nico returning as an undead version of himself at some point. It'd be so fitting, and such a triumphant comeback.

[Math Mathonwy]

1 minute ago, SunTsu said:

I think you essentially missinterpreting Wyrd objectives.

My guess is that Wyrd decision to "remove" some masters from the game is a storydriven decision, but with a strong underlined game designing motivation. That motivation is much more obvious in the reorganization of all the factions (particulary TT), so that with the new M3e we will have a much more rationalized and organized factions than now.

-Ramos was the construct supporter of the Arcanists, and I always asked why Hoffmann was not dual faction. If Hoffman steps in, could emerge some overlapping wit the former, ending up with two masters in the same faction doing basicaly same sort of things...

One could summon and blow up Constructs while the other one boosts and moves them around. They manage to have two Masters whose main schtick is to punch little guys in the same faction as well, and make them different enough from one another.

1 minute ago, SunTsu said:

-Lilith, Nico and Collodi are simply masters that have too broad and generalist playstyles, risking to suffocating the others: in resser if you want let emerge a new evocation style you cannot compete with Nicodem, Lilith and Collodi simply do everything better in most situation. Obviously nothing prevent, in the future, to introduce a coming back of all these characters: Ramos and Lilith can escape, Nico can became an undead, and so on. In that case you will ending up an old-but-new master with a new playstyle that will do completely different things. Or maybe not... Who knows??? I like surprises, let yourself be surprised by the story...

So their niche is too broad but if they come back it can be made fit? Why couldn't it be made fit already?

I mean, I do agree that they currently do quite a few things. Lilith has her movement stuff, terrain stuff and swording as well as cards and black blood and so on. But surely you could condense them to a couple of key traits? I don't understand how that should be any more difficult than what they've done to, e.g., Marcus.

[Kevinsmith101]

What I love about this most is the list of models I was never going to buy as they were not good in game is now my necessary purchases list! They can only be better in 3rd edition so bandersnatch purchased!! 

[Gloomy]

58 minutes ago, SunTsu said:

-Ramos was the construct supporter of the Arcanists, and I always asked why Hoffmann was not dual faction. If Hoffman steps in, could emerge some overlapping wit the former, ending up with two masters in the same faction doing basicaly same sort of things...

-Lilith, Nico and Collodi are simply masters that have too broad and generalist playstyles, risking to suffocating the others: in resser if you want let emerge a new evocation style you cannot compete with Nicodem, Lilith and Collodi simply do everything better in most situation. Obviously nothing prevent, in the future, to introduce a coming back of all these characters: Ramos and Lilith can escape, Nico can became an undead, and so on. In that case you will ending up an old-but-new master with a new playstyle that will do completely different things. Or maybe not... Who knows??? I like surprises, let yourself be surprised by the story...

The thing is if they are changing some of the masters playstyles quite drastically anyway, these masters could have been changed significantly and left in the game. Nico being an undead liche thing, maybe he doesn't summon anymore. Maybe Ramos is used by the Guild now with a bunch of other convicts as like a dirty dozen crew of prisoners? There are plenty of options without making players feel like they've invested lots of time and money in models that they probably won't get to use

I understand that Wyrd want to make space to sell new Masters and such but in all honesty we'd all buy and play those ones as well

[Ikiwith]

2 hours ago, aramal0997 said:

This guy --> 

...encapsulates my response. He thought he was talking about football/soccer but actually predicting my response about this announcement. M2E is complex and I love it. Best. Game. EVER! M3E hopefully won't dumb down a legendary game. Count me in regardless. As has been said earlier in this thread, we can choose which edition to play casually.

Lilith will return. It is inevitable. Collodi (my first Neverborn master) is only missing, he'll turn up, maybe in book 2 or 3 of M3E. Lynch, the slippery, treacherous bastard, has escaped our clutches for the time being, but Huggy has plans. Souls are worth more than drugs/casino income after all.

I have faith, Wyrd. Faith. Don't do an England on me and ultimately lose this one.

I would say "Let's face the music, and dance", but with Collodi missing, I'll have to wait and see about that music...

Colour me cautiously optimistic for the time being. Which, if you're wondering what colour optimistic is, is purple of course.

Hey dude you don't be worried. Collodi is not missing, he is on tour with Metallica.

He'll be back. 😁😁

[-Loki-]

The explanation of even amounts of masters is the most likely reason for the Dead Mans Hand. There’s no real reason to make them optional if they’re balanced, but opening up more options for select factions isn’t great for a competitive scene.

Why should Neverborn get 10, Ressers and Arcanists 9 each, while the rest get 8?

[Dragoon130]

1 minute ago, -Loki- said:

The explanation of even amounts of masters is the most likely reason for the Dead Mans Hand. There’s no real reason to make them optional if they’re balanced, but opening up more options for select factions isn’t great for a competitive scene.

Why should Neverborn get 10, Ressers and Arcanists 9 each, while the rest get 8?

That's about the only real idea I can think of too. Though I'm personally one for the more choices and playstyles (Ie. Bring Everyone to 10 masters) the better I also understand the small hell that would be to balance. Yet no one likes watching thier guys get Squatted/Tomb Kinged from a game. Like I said it really won't effect me and I'll still run whoever when I want amongst my playgroup as they don't care and I'm still gonna go pickup my pile of new releases every month. Just leaves a bad taste when I see the opposite work elsewhere. 

[Mason]

5 hours ago, Ikiwith said:

I don't know if someone has asked it before but I haven't read any message of the staff about it. Will the mercenaries be available on the 3rd edition? Thanks

Mercenaries in the M2E sense of the word are going away. They were very much a "feast or famine" issue in M2E, where they were either an option that was never considered (Hog Whisperer, Freikorpsmann, Torakage) or were in every list due to their strength (Burn, McTavish, Freikorps Trapper).

Instead, Mercenary is the name of the Viktorias' keyword (just like December is the name of Raspy's).

[Gloomy]

3 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

The explanation of even amounts of masters is the most likely reason for the Dead Mans Hand. There’s no real reason to make them optional if they’re balanced, but opening up more options for select factions isn’t great for a competitive scene.

Why should Neverborn get 10, Ressers and Arcanists 9 each, while the rest get 8?

I was just talking about it with some of our local group, and my suggestion to handle that problem in tournaments would be allow Dead Mans hand Masters, but make a rule that if you are using one you have to solo it with no access to other Masters. That way people can still play them if they want but the other Neverborn/Resser/Arcanist players wouldn't have access to them as a choice

[Dragoon130]

4 minutes ago, Athiko said:

I was just talking about it with some of our local group, and my suggestion to handle that problem in tournaments would be allow Dead Mans hand Masters, but make a rule that if you are using one you have to solo it with no access to other Masters. That way people can still play them if they want but the other Neverborn/Resser/Arcanist players wouldn't have access to them as a choice

Problem with that is not knowing how powerful these combos can/will be your esentially gimping yourself which would take us back to the main issue. Very few would intentionally gimp themselves at a offical event meaning the DMH masters are effectively DOA and the converse of making them over powered to compensate means everyone would just play them. It's a catch 22. 

My play group actually suggested that they be moved to henchman so they could still lead crews, going by current rules at least, yet have a gameplay position showing thier current lack of power.

[solkan]

I’m still wondering if things like the Black Joker alt-Nicodem aren’t just going to end up used as proxies, instead.

 

[Sobek]

On 7/25/2018 at 12:47 PM, Mason said:

M3E still has Upgrades, though we're dialing them back somewhat from where M2E is.

Can you elaborate on this a little? Upgrades were a little bit of a headache to remember and keep track of for those people who don't play very often. Will there be fewer upgrades in general? Will there be more limits on who can take them and on how many they can take?

[Mason]

4 minutes ago, Sobek said:

Can you elaborate on this a little? Upgrades were a little bit of a headache to remember and keep track of for those people who don't play very often. Will there be fewer upgrades in general? Will there be more limits on who can take them and on how many they can take?

In general, there will be fewer but more meaningful upgrades.

[Artiee]

14 minutes ago, Mason said:

In general, there will be fewer but more meaningful upgrades.

I hope there is enough upgrades where they are not a auto take upgrade.

[Gloomy]

21 minutes ago, Dragoon130 said:

Problem with that is not knowing how powerful these combos can/will be your esentially gimping yourself which would take us back to the main issue. Very few would intentionally gimp themselves at a offical event meaning the DMH masters are effectively DOA and the converse of making them over powered to compensate means everyone would just play them. It's a catch 22.

I don't really see this as a problem, from whats been said they're going to be balanced for tournament play. And I've definitely seen people (myself included) solo Masters at tournaments with fixed lists and win. But your right in the sense that it's hard to speculate without knowing what the stats or new rules are going to be. It just seems to me to be the best way to keep them relevant and involved in tournaments without giving specific factions an advantage.

Not so sure about the Henchman idea as Henchmen lead crews are not usually allowed at tournaments anyway

[Mortarion]

2 hours ago, Athiko said:

Maybe Ramos is used by the Guild now with a bunch of other convicts as like a dirty dozen crew of prisoners? There are plenty of options without making players feel like they've invested lots of time and money in models that they probably won't get to use

Allthough I think that the idea of a Guild crew consisting of a captured Ramos leading a bunch of captured Arcanists, Ressers and Neverborn on suicide missions is super awesome and I would buy that crew instantly, I really don't think that most Arcanist players would be less angry if one of their masters was moved to Guild as a prisoner... 😉

[MetaphoricDragn]

1 hour ago, -Loki- said:

The explanation of even amounts of masters is the most likely reason for the Dead Mans Hand. There’s no real reason to make them optional if they’re balanced, but opening up more options for select factions isn’t great for a competitive scene.

Why should Neverborn get 10, Ressers and Arcanists 9 each, while the rest get 8?

Don't bring in Marcus then?  delay new guy to the next book or 2 when everyone gets a new master? Add more masters to the others, Rasputina would look good in outcast yellow :p .  Seriously though the number of masters thing is kinda a bad argument because its entirely under Wyrd's control.  We had balanced master counts in m2e, its their decision to mess with them.  

[MunkyMuddFace]

My most pressing concern is if the Horsemen list will still be possible.

[MetaphoricDragn]

While I've generally posted concerns in this thread previously, I am super excited to see how the keyword hiring works.  Most of my favorite masters have super tight themes and thats what drew me in, Like Tina's Cult and Tara's Void.  My dip into neverborn led to a lot of include Neverborn all stars despite the master, which is likely why i faded away from neverborn some at the moment.  (though Lilith was my favorite),

Really wondering how some of the Paralyze focused master's are going to go with that removed.  

[PirateCaptain]

On the topic of Master's leaving tournament playability (a few brief thoughts);

Rotating masters for TOURNAMENT play is a good thing.

Remember, if you have no intention of playing in tournaments then you can continue playing your favorite masters with no issue and everyone will be happy.

I think that players who complain that tournaments get stale, and that nerfing is not the correct route, should all agree that some kind of master rotation is an excellent option to explore (even if it is proven insufficient, it must be tested as an option).  Rotating masters for tournaments shakes up the meta and is a new option for doing this without all the "badfeels" that come with nerfs. 

Master's losing "Master" status shakes up the tournament meta more than anything else.

Again, don't forget, you're not losing masters when you play with friends.

Now, on the subject of masters changing allegiances, that's just the way of things, and if you don't like there's really nothing for it. I think making changes based on fluff is a fun decision.  If you're not playing to compete (at which point, shaking up the meta we've established as a positive) and you want to play a master because you like them, why not follow their story to the new faction? Let's look at McCabe, if you're a fan of McCabe in the story, it's exciting to see that characters story progress and you get to play along side his progression and his character development has a real impact on the game you're playing! That's such a positive for fluff driven players.

I know change is scary, but all in all if you step back it's all incredibly positive.

[Zebo]

While I'm quite sure that gone masters will return, not sure about they being the same. 

For example, I think Wyrd is gonna keep the dame number of masters between factions. The return of the gone masters should mean 10 masters to Neverborn. 2 new masters for other factions? 

Could be, but also could be only 1 new master per faction. Lilith returns to NB and Collodi is moved to another faction, like outcast. That would mean new Guild, TT and Gremlin masters. 

Just thinking. 

[Go Canucks Go]

On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 12:51 PM, daniello_s said:

Just imagine current Levi players when 'new' Levi won't have Pariah of Iron/Bone up available anymore... All these models in your bag which you can't use anymore...😂

Why is Levi losing Pariah of Iron?

[retnab]

1 hour ago, Mortarion said:

Allthough I think that the idea of a Guild crew consisting of a captured Ramos leading a bunch of captured Arcanists, Ressers and Neverborn on suicide missions is super awesome and I would buy that crew instantly, I really don't think that most Arcanist players would be less angry if one of their masters was moved to Guild as a prisoner... 😉

I'm still hoping The Council eventually does get around to jailbreaking him so we can get him in TOS (riding the Leviathan like the badass he is in the fluff maybe?), though with them getting last place in Homefront I'm not holding my breath  

Am I sad Ramos isn't in the Arcanists anymore? Yeah, especially since he's one of my favourites to play and one of my original two purchases. However, the fact that he's still playable makes that a lot better IMO and I 100% will be playing him still.  And let's be honest, the VAST majority of us don't do official Wyrd tournaments, just casual play or local tourneys, so for almost everyone the change is going to be pretty negligible, especially if you ask your henchmen / TO's to allow DMH masters in your local tourneys.