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Third Edition is Coming!!


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26 minutes ago, Brandu said:

Just a thought on this:

So far Wyrd has stated which Masters are  and are not dual faction, which has changed where they belong in quite a few cases. 

Isn't it likely that some of the Henchmen, Enforcers and Minions are also going to be shuffled around? 

 

"Well, you see here boyos, I'm no longer associated wit the Guild, you're either with me and the Ten Thunders or you're against me..."

Following this train of thought, it looks possible that Neverborn could lose pieces like the Illuminated, Beckoners, Depleted and possibly Graves and Tannen as these are thematically linked to Jakob Lynch who is now fully 10T.

However if Graves and Tannen keep their keywords they could still fit into a couple of Neverborn crews. 

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Just now, Paddywhack said:

Most of your purchases are likely still perfectly valid as well. As far as we know only Collodi has gone missing. The rest of your models will likely have new and interesting synergy with other masters. It's certainly frustrating to be told your new master may not be available for competitive play for now (still available for most regular tourneys and casual play though), but there is no indication that all the puppet models are now useless. You may have to look at other Masters though. Until the beta starts and you can see the new stat lines and rules it's hard to know exactly what's going to happen with your current models. 

There's very much a reason Collodi was originally the Neverborn henchmen.  His puppet theme was designed to go along with their original "nightmare plaything" style.  His stuff can fit well with Dreamer, Pandora, and Zoraida at the very least.

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4 minutes ago, Brandu said:

Unless the faction symbol is going to be used as a Theme point keyword for some models... 

...and that still matters a lot less after it’s hired. Most of the M2E on-card faction restrictions I know of boil down to ‘whoops, shouldn’t’ve let Howard Langston have access to that, let’s restrict its target to one faction only’. Making that central space the wound tracking space, up next to the defensive stats, would work a lot better.

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So, after a day of thinking this through, I am overall very positive about the new edition.

While it is sad to lose Collodi, it is more of an issue in the background for me as I have a hard time seeing any tournaments in my area deciding not to allow the Dead man's hand models unless they are really broken. And I have an even harder time imagining anyone at my gaming club not wanting to play against them. But to those people living in an area where they won't be allowed, I understand your concerns. The loss of Dual faction might hurt more, but I think a lot of that might be fixed with thematic keywords. And in the end I really like that the story and world actually changes. (But I am also pretty sure that the lost models will be back in some revised form in the future.)

Thematic hiring... Well... It can be tricky to get right, and as I said previously, I really hope that they get the benefits just right, so that thematic is not the only playable option. But after checking som of the current keywords, I am less concerned about facing the same crew every time I face the same master. Just looking at my own model collection I realised that I could vary my crews quite a bit within each of the sub factions Guild marshals, Witch hunters and Guild Guards.

The only thing I think is only negative is the change in card size. I really hope Wyrd reconsiders this. I can't see any reason for changing the size. Chainging layout and design is one thing but changing the size away from a standard format makes no sense. Unless Wyrd intentionally did that to prove that bad things happen, even in what seems like an otherwise good edition.

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8 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

I don't think upgrades ever panned out quite the way they were envisioned in M2E.  They ended up creating more clutter game to game then they managed to provide significant diversity in playstyles.  They were created in the same era as X-Wing, when it was a solution for the need to provide updates but when companies still feared errata.  Ultimately we learned that they're an okay idea, but no substitute for wholesale changes and more problematically, have no ability to fix the stuff that's over powered and causes the real problems in the system.

0ss upgrades; completely agree.

But I actually found some of the Wave 5 Master upgrades quite enjoyable and diversifying and to the OP's point (the one you quoted), allowed them to bring in some changes based on the fluff.

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Personally I'm fond of the new size.  Part of the reason we have upgrades was just to catch a bunch of overflow card text.  The game will fit better on larger cards and the new style feels more in line with the tarot style of the game.  As long as it lets the cut down on the card clutter of M2E, I'll consider it a win.

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Wyrd, take a look at what fantasy flight is doing with the points values of the ships and the app in xwing. No points are printed on the physical card but they are represented in the app. This allows points alterations for game balance without having to print out new cards.

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I could certainly be wrong, but I don't think NB really needs to worry about losing their models like Illuminated, beckoners and so on. They certainly could, but I think the overlooked thing is that Keywords do not have to be faction specific. Beckoners, Illuminated, Tannen and Graves could easily still all be NB models, but have the Keyword that allows Lynch to pull them into TT. I'm not saying that is the case, but at least from the info available I'd look at keyword hiring as making a faction of every master who then also has access to a mere pool (their faction). I would imagine that's a way for them to make cross faction hiring make more thematic sense.

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Just now, Fetid Strumpet said:

I could certainly be wrong, but I don't think NB really needs to worry about losing their models like Illuminated, beckoners and so on. They certainly could, but I think the overlooked thing is that Keywords do not have to be faction specific. Beckoners, Illuminated, Tannen and Graves could easily still all be NB models, but have the Keyword that allows Lynch to pull them into TT. I'm not saying that is the case, but at least from the info available I'd look at keyword hiring as making a faction of every master who then also has access to a mere pool (their faction). I would imagine that's a way for them to make cross faction hiring make more thematic sense.

Based on what we've been told so far, it seems as if there are basically 3 "tiers" of hiring masters.

keyword specific based on master; works more or less like hiring within faction does now; you pay the listed SS cost, you're good to go. and you'll get good synergy and benefits with your master.

versatile: works SIMILAR to keyword, you can hire any versatile master within faction for the listed SS cost, but will probably not have as much synergy with your master's keyword.

faction: you can hire anything from the masters faction, but if it doesn't have a keyword, or versatile, there's some drawback or penalty. it could be a merc fee, it could be something else.

 

based on that, it seems unlikely that cross-faction keyword would be a thing, it seems like Lynch's keyword is Bliss? So, lets say Graves, Illuminated and Beckoners are still neverborn. they would *need* the Bliss keyword to be hired into Lynch's faction, which means they won't be versatile, so anyone else would have to pay the penalty to get them. Which means Graves, who's a lynch-pin(get it) beater for NB is either unfairly expensive for the entire faction he's actually in, or he's undercosted for Lynch.

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16 minutes ago, Mason said:

I am, personally, very much against the idea of "need an app to play."

I'm very much in favor of app driven gaming, but I also feel points are often the least appropriate way to rebalance a model.  This is especially true in a game like Malifaux where each model has a large number of actions.  Points more serve to determine a model's role in a list.  Cheap, expendable scheme runners, low cost support elements, more expensive options with highly impactful attacks, etc.  I feel its almost better in Malifaux to keep a model's point cost the same and change the specifics of the abilities that makes the model act outside of the role it was intended.

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3 minutes ago, Kyris said:

Based on what we've been told so far, it seems as if there are basically 3 "tiers" of hiring masters.

keyword specific based on master; works more or less like hiring within faction does now; you pay the listed SS cost, you're good to go. and you'll get good synergy and benefits with your master.

versatile: works SIMILAR to keyword, you can hire any versatile master within faction for the listed SS cost, but will probably not have as much synergy with your master's keyword.

faction: you can hire anything from the masters faction, but if it doesn't have a keyword, or versatile, there's some drawback or penalty. it could be a merc fee, it could be something else.

 

based on that, it seems unlikely that cross-faction keyword would be a thing, it seems like Lynch's keyword is Bliss? So, lets say Graves, Illuminated and Beckoners are still neverborn. they would *need* the Bliss keyword to be hired into Lynch's faction, which means they won't be versatile, so anyone else would have to pay the penalty to get them. Which means Graves, who's a lynch-pin(get it) beater for NB is either unfairly expensive for the entire faction he's actually in, or he's undercosted for Lynch.

But what if Graves has both the keywords Bliss *and* Nephilim?  Then he'd be a keyword summon for both Lynch and Nekima.  It's also possible that there might be henchmen out there that change hiring up by making their theme count.  For example, Lynch might hire Toshiro (or Yan Lo!) at full cost, but they let you hire retainers "in theme".

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9 minutes ago, Kyris said:

Based on what we've been told so far, it seems as if there are basically 3 "tiers" of hiring masters.

keyword specific based on master; works more or less like hiring within faction does now; you pay the listed SS cost, you're good to go. and you'll get good synergy and benefits with your master.

versatile: works SIMILAR to keyword, you can hire any versatile master within faction for the listed SS cost, but will probably not have as much synergy with your master's keyword.

faction: you can hire anything from the masters faction, but if it doesn't have a keyword, or versatile, there's some drawback or penalty. it could be a merc fee, it could be something else.

 

based on that, it seems unlikely that cross-faction keyword would be a thing, it seems like Lynch's keyword is Bliss? So, lets say Graves, Illuminated and Beckoners are still neverborn. they would *need* the Bliss keyword to be hired into Lynch's faction, which means they won't be versatile, so anyone else would have to pay the penalty to get them. Which means Graves, who's a lynch-pin(get it) beater for NB is either unfairly expensive for the entire faction he's actually in, or he's undercosted for Lynch.

I'd be very surprised if models didn't retain multiple keywords in some fashion.  Nephilim and Woe seems likely to remain.

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I'm happy there's a new edition coming, I think M2E is in need of a shakeup. There will no doubt be some rules changes that I think are for the worse (and some for the better) but so it goes.

I think the dead man's hand solution is unfortunate, such things always comes with a certain stigma of not being quite really 100% official (I mean there are those who reject Forgeworld models for similar reasons). I don't see why they can't just be part of the regular rules with a note in the fluff that s/he is dead/imprisoned at the current point in the story line.

I like the idea of themed hiring, and I hope no one in the new edition has ridiculously generous keywords like Leveticus and Marcus has in M2E.

I like that having less conditions. But in M2E there are other persistent effects that are not conditions that you have to keep track of (e.g. Howard's Steam Cloud), if those aren't also removed it will all be for nought. The "Token" mechanic doesn't seem to bad as from the descriptions it was limited to one effect per Master. Pass tokens seems like you can keep by your soulstone pool so I don't mind those.

Speaking of Pass tokens, I hope this is an actual mechanic for controlling activation disparity (like for instance Confrontation 3e had) and not just something you can buy or get a set amount of.

Annoyed that the cards wont be standard magic size since any other sleeves/binders can be quite hard/expensive to get a hold of even if they do exist.

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2 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

I'm very much in favor of app driven gaming, but I also feel points are often the least appropriate way to rebalance a model.  This is especially true in a game like Malifaux where each model has a large number of actions.  Points more serve to determine a model's role in a list.  Cheap, expendable scheme runners, low cost support elements, more expensive options with highly impactful attacks, etc.  I feel its almost better in Malifaux to keep a model's point cost the same and change the specifics of the abilities that makes the model act outside of the role it was intended.

Sometimes is just that they overperform really well for their point cost ;)

I like both options, love to have the cards in the table to easily check and to give my opponent all the information he needs about what he is facing, but I also like to open the app and think about new lists while waiting for the bus or sometimes to keep track of activations/points scored/damage...

 

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46 minutes ago, Hotpants said:

Wyrd, take a look at what fantasy flight is doing with the points values of the ships and the app in xwing. No points are printed on the physical card but they are represented in the app. This allows points alterations for game balance without having to print out new cards.

This goes against Malifaux boxes being something you can open up and have all the stats you need to play them. They would have to put a separate card in every box just for points value.

It wasn’t a terrible idea to future-proof the physical cards, but given that a lot of people have dealt with the recosting errata with a packet of round stickers to black out the initial cost and write down the new one ( :D ), printing out new cards isn’t a necessity for points errata.

[+1 for a Euro based card printing vendor as well as a US one]

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Just now, ShinChan said:

Sometimes is just that they overperform really well for their point cost ;)

I like both options, love to have the cards in the table to easily check and to give my opponent all the information he needs about what he is facing, but I also like to open the app and think about new lists while waiting for the bus or sometimes to keep track of activations/points scored/damage...

 

Definitely true.  I'm not opposed to changing point costs, I'm just afraid that the X-Wing 2.0 solution creates the mindset that you can fix anything by changing the point cost, when I think that's just as problematic as "you can fix anything by adding new rules via upgrades".

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I am happy to see that everyone will have the same number of story relevant Masters to choose from in competitive and casual play come the start of M3E. People may not care about the story and that's fine but I'm here because of it - there were a lot of games out there and what settled me here over then was the kooky characters and interesting stories.

I don't actually happen to think The story is separate from the game: The new characters we see and even generic models we come across usually have some barring to what is happening in Malifaux. Likewise it's always a little frustrating to grab a new book off the shelf and flip through it to find my favorite character isn't present at all.

I am happy that someone cared enough to provide me with statistics for these Masters, anyways. It is after all a character driven skirmish game and I like to see the Characters drive it. 

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30 minutes ago, Mason said:

I am, personally, very much against the idea of "need an app to play."

I, personally, don't like buying retconed cards when you guys need to alter the balance of a model. Most people use some form of army builder now anyways so why not just keep all the points there? It's not necessary for play once the game starts.

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5 minutes ago, Hotpants said:

I, personally, don't like buying retconed cards when you guys need to alter the balance of a model. Most people use some form of army builder now anyways so why not just keep all the points there? It's not necessary for play once the game starts.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with allowing players to use apps to make lists in whatever fashion works best for them.

I just don't like the idea of making the app mandatory.

Some people out there don't have smart phones, after all.

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2 minutes ago, Hotpants said:

I, personally, don't like buying retconed cards when you guys need to alter the balance of a model. Most people use some form of army builder now anyways so why not just keep all the points there? It's not necessary for play once the game starts.

You don't need to buy new cards if you have the app.

The app is an acceptable alternative to having (or repurchasing) the physical cards. It is not mandatory to play (or start playing) the game. 

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