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Third Edition is Coming!!

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5 minutes ago, Teluriel12 said:

The answer from Mason was clear. “You can use him in casual play and dead mans hands tournaments”...there was no “who knows what the future might bring”

I actually said, "Collodi will still be playable in casual play, as well as in tournaments that allow the "Dead Man's Hand" models."

Just clarifying since you used quotation marks but then paraphrased me.  :)

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1 minute ago, Teluriel12 said:

I saved six months for that, putting aside whenever i could and not being able to do other stuff...that was my choice.  But normally when you make a purchase you kind of expect that the company selling the product doesnt invalidate it (I gues Wyrd tournaments wouldnt allow for them!

But thanks for your empathy...you clearly know everyhing about my personal life and how I should run it.

Are we here to discuss your personal life or an awesome new version of the game?
I somehow doubt that top of any business' list of concerns when writing a new edition of a game is 'looking out for super niche cases of mini collecting totally out of line with what most people do'. 
They haven't said Collodi is invalidated. Are you planning on going to many 'Wyrd official' events? As I've previously stated, most Henchman (ie those who run events) will certainly allow these masters at their events

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7 hours ago, ShinChan said:

For those people complaining about Nicodem/Lilith/Collodi. I bought Nicodem 3 months ago and paid for a pro painted of more than 70ss for making different playlist with him. I didn't have the time to use it a single time yet, and I'm not complaining about it. If you want to play those models, just talk to your TOs and ask them to allow the "Dead Man" masters, I can not see the problem. They're getting an update and could come back in the future.

Paying for something to be pro-painted vs painting it yourself for dozens if not hundreds of hours makes for a somewhat different bond to the minis. Just saying.

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3 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

 

Masters are not models like any others. They're personalities, something players are - strange as it sounds - emotionally attached to.

I feel this. I'm painting my first master now and feel obligated to try my best and give her the stellar paintjob that she deserves :D

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5 hours ago, Blastaar said:

I certainly hope that rendition of the stat cards is changed: the artwork has no business taking up 2/3s of it, the formatting is off, and the actual rules parts are a little difficult to read. As a game aid it's a failure. Keep the current version it does its job well- don't mess with it just to appeal to people who value style over substance. Gameplay first.

Pretty much this. The current cards already take up alot of space and some gaming areas don't really have the space for them now.

We don't need massive pictures on the play aids.

Everything else is good but the cards are an issue

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11 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

On the plus side, you’re free to print the stat cards in whatever size you want, since they will be free.

Propably not easy, since their width:height ratio is different, so just scaling them down results in a card much too narrow or streched wide - at least if you want to fit them in your existing sleeves.

 

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13 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

On the plus side, you’re free to print the stat cards in whatever size you want, since they will be free.

Well, some of the print isn't exactly huge on the card shown.

If you print that out any smaller, you'll need magnifying glasses to read them.

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Vast majority of the tournaments follow official Wyrd rules (such as GG) and in these rules might be a note that certain masters are not allowed to be used. 

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Download the free cards. Resize to desired width. Cut the art to fit desired height.
There you have it. Cards matching your sleeves and without the extra art.

Or just use the app. If there's one, it'll be easier.

With the change to bigger cards and a switch from wide to tall cards I'm wondering myself how I'll fit the cards on the table outside of the gaming area. That being said, they look very cool and I really like them.

 

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7 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Vast majority of the tournaments follow official Wyrd rules (such as GG) and in these rules might be a note that certain masters are not allowed to be used. 

Yes. And at those events,  per said document, TOs are the "sole authority". They can be allowed at their discretion. Talk to the TO.

 

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I like change, so I'm generally pretty excited about this. My biggest challenge with the game has been the prevalence of model-specific rules knowledge required to avoid 'gotcha' moments because you haven't played against model x in 8 months and couldn't quite recall what that model did. My impression is the range of those potential abilities has been narrowed to a point where it is a bit more manageable and focused on tactics. The more narrow range of conditions can certainly help here as well. 

On the other hand, I am very worried about the rise of tokens in the game. It looks as if there are plenty that are coming - pass, dream, scandal, flicker, and others. I generally like to avoid bookkeeping crews and don't particularly like playing against them (although I do like Shenlong). I don't want to see little tokens all over the board or on my cards and I certainly don't want to have more in the bag to go along with scheme markers and soulstones. I know many folks already use tokens for various things (activation markers, fast markers, dice for damage). I don't particularly like that stuff cluttering up the battlefield. I understand it and don't mind playing against folks who prefer that. I certainly don't say anything, but I am worried about more of it. 

Personally I have no issue with master turnover, although Nicodem really surprises me. He's your quintessential necromancer and I'm not sure Von Schtook fills that gap. We'll see! 

I hope the height rules improve! 

Can't wait for more details! 

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Hard to say without looking at models on how bad themed forced will be. Currently models like Ophelia's kin and Mah have very few models.

Personally kind of wish they would have broken the factions up more, but guess this might be the same thing if we get new models to give you a choice when hiring.

 

At a min would expect each master / theme to have

2 henchmen

2-3 enforcers

3-4 minions

Which I currently feel few masters can pull off.

 

Personally I liked the way warmahordes 2E handled fluffy crews and story changes, but agree their implementation was off (themed forces were either op or useless and rarely a good in between)

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15 hours ago, Lalochezia said:

Where is the story about Lilith? I need to go read that.

I picked up Broken Promises the other day but I'm not all the way through it. Or is it in TTB somewhere?

Lilith's story that I referenced and leads to her current status imprisoned (I'll try to avoid more spoilers) is in the most recent Wave 5 book. Broken Promises.

It also has the stories about Ramos, about Misaki, etc, so well worth it for the fluff alone!

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On 7/25/2018 at 2:12 PM, Kai said:
  • We have also slimmed down conditions. Instead of hundreds of conditions, we now have 11 conditions that help players focus on skill and strategy rather than memorization.

I am especially looking forward to this bit. Applied for the beta. Looking forward to it.

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As a primary Lilith and Collodi player, I'm very much interested in the Dead Man Hands stuff. And I am frequently participating in tournaments like Adepticon, so it's of interest. But I see a perfectly plausible "sky is NOT on fire" reason for it.

At launch these masters have Dead Mans Hand stuff. They can be used in tournaments if the TO allows, and I might even expect that most tournaments would allow it right at launch to ensure 3E participation. Then in the future, when these masters get reintroduced as M3E Book 2 masters, their new incarnation with new crews, new abilities, new everything are tournament legal. Boom, easy solution.

If Dead Man Hands crews were "default legal" as some have said, then there would be two versions of Lilith legal, or they would have to make the old versions illegal at that time. It's a much cleaner decision to make them non-standard at launch, when people are starting fresh, than to pull the rug out from them a year into 3E.

This is all hypothetical of course, but optimism is just as good of a future predictor as pessimism. 

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More keyword models means new models or old models gaining similar keywords.  I'm looking forward to more Sky Pirates! Or perhaps changing Sky Pirate to Bandit and having more crossover on that branch now that Zipp is in OC too.

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Agree with most here that a different card size is going to be an issue. I've got mixed feelings about the new layout, but that's personal. Card size is not. Standard size means ease of use, transport, and save in table space, again, as many have said. There is really no practical reason to have gigantic cards where the art takes 2/3 of the card - unless you're trying to appeal to people with really poor eyesight...or kids maybe? But still, I'd rather have a bigger font and more space on rules, than a large picture - the art I care about is the miniature, not the printed art on a card. Plenty of space for such art on the rulebooks ;)

Personally I have a ton of models (17 masters last time I counted, plus relative entourages) so I have my cards in standard-size sleeves spanning across 4 dual deck boxes. I would guess it's a few hundred cards, given each box contains around 120. Imagine moving all that to an even bigger size - and needing to buy new deck boxes and new sleeves...apart from being impractical, it would cost me almost as much as a new crew! I would hope Wyrd prefers I spend my money on their models rather than on (third-party) deck-boxes and sleeves...unless they plan to release deck-boxes and sleeves! And again, without mentioning how cumbersome the whole circus would be.

If that really was confirmed as card size, I would probably rather go app-only (and I hope the app will be just updated and we won't have to pay again for our cards), but it's a pity, I like having a printed support while I play, it's so much easier to reference and less dispersive and time-consuming.

Unfortunately, this it a thing that, I feel, players have little control about. It's not a "game aspect" per se, and won't be part of the beta-testing: it's a marketing decision (not a good one, IMHO, but still a marketing decision) and I doubt we'll have any say in this, no matter how many of us or how loud we make our voices. I hope to be proved wrong.

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3 hours ago, Teluriel12 said:

My issue is that iv just spend 140gbp on a collodi crew as the first purchase ive ever made with Wyrd...whatever reasoning people try to bring forward is not helping at all...I dont have cash or time to burn.

Again, ive asked them if I can swap these unopened boxes with other models/masters that I know will be supported and allowed wherever I go, but so far there is not a single reply by anyone from Wyrd.  Not in my personal box, not in any part of this thread where multiple people have voices concerns.

I’m going to assume you got way more than just Collodi for that?  Sounds like that purchase should include a solid number of units to play with in the new edition. 

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Malifaux is my favorite game, and I was super excited when I saw m3e on the website. Then I saw that nonthematic crews will have penalties. This, in my humble opinion, will take away all of the game’s charm. I loved the ability to have so many models to choose from, but this won’t be a factor anymore. No tournament player will penalize their crew so it’ll be the same crews time and time again. On top of that some masters have very small thematic crews at the moment, which would penalize them further. I’m holding out hope that the penalty will be an OKAY model you can only take in thematic crews, or an upgrade you can only get in thematic crews, or maybe even the WM/H method of getting a few bonuses for thematic crews without removing competitiveness of nonthematic crews, but from what I’ve heard it looks like you’ll have to pay more for nonthematic models. If this is the case I’m afraid you’ve lost me and my gaming group.

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Lilith is gone!?  Oh no!  She's the very first master I picked up, right when M1E first came out.  Ah, the good old days.

I'm not too broken up about the fact I have a bunch of masters that aren't "legal" now.  If I can play them in casual games, that's fine.  If there are enough cool looking masters that I could buy and play in "official events" that's fine too.  I'm pretty excited to see what M3E does for the game :)

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7 minutes ago, Snowhateswinter said:

Malifaux is my favorite game, and I was super excited when I saw m3e on the website. Then I saw that nonthematic crews will have penalties. This, in my humble opinion, will take away all of the game’s charm. I loved the ability to have so many models to choose from, but this won’t be a factor anymore. No tournament player will penalize their crew so it’ll be the same crews time and time again. On top of that some masters have very small thematic crews at the moment, which would penalize them further. I’m holding out hope that the penalty will be an OKAY model you can only take in thematic crews, or an upgrade you can only get in thematic crews, or maybe even the WM/H method of getting a few bonuses for thematic crews without removing competitiveness of nonthematic crews, but from what I’ve heard it looks like you’ll have to pay more for nonthematic models. If this is the case I’m afraid you’ve lost me and my gaming group.

Your complaint about what could happen is exactly what happens now. The competitive crews are the same masters with the same small model pool over and over again with little variety. The best models with the best masters show up over and over with little variety. The fact that you “can” play a suboptimal crew doesn’t mean anyone does.

“If” they manage to actually make every master competitive, even if each master only has a small selection of competitive cookie-cutter crews, I’ll take that over what we have now. At least then there will be a different crew in events for every master played as opposed to one-ish crew for every faction played.

That of course assumes all masters are competitive, which is where I hope they focus their balance attempts on. Everyone I know who plays the game got into it because of some particular master, and I dislike it when a person selects a master they love and then gets told well you can play them for fun but they aren’t competitive so don’t play that master in events.

I realize that isn’t a universal truism but it’s my experience.

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13 minutes ago, Snowhateswinter said:

Malifaux is my favorite game, and I was super excited when I saw m3e on the website. Then I saw that nonthematic crews will have penalties. This, in my humble opinion, will take away all of the game’s charm. I loved the ability to have so many models to choose from, but this won’t be a factor anymore. No tournament player will penalize their crew so it’ll be the same crews time and time again. On top of that some masters have very small thematic crews at the moment, which would penalize them further. I’m holding out hope that the penalty will be an OKAY model you can only take in thematic crews, or an upgrade you can only get in thematic crews, or maybe even the WM/H method of getting a few bonuses for thematic crews without removing competitiveness of nonthematic crews, but from what I’ve heard it looks like you’ll have to pay more for nonthematic models. If this is the case I’m afraid you’ve lost me and my gaming group.

Mason has mentioned that they've ensured that each keyword has enough support, meaning we'll likely see more models with keywords than they have today. Things like Lelu and Lilitu already had several because they overlapped several crews, I can easily see them expanding this to more models. So it might be premature to say some master's won't have enough models.

 

Additionally, if they expand the keyword pool big enough, then even playing "in theme" will resort to diverse crews. I understand your fear. From 1E, I have always wanted to be a Rasputina player, but I always hated playing with the very specific set of models that she wanted. I loved Lilith because I could leave all my Nephilim at home and pick a diverse list and still be competitive. I don't like the idea of "net-listing" a pre-packaged crew. But if I had 30 models to choose from for a master that were "in-theme", that probably is enough for diverse lists.

 

One of the reasons M2E has started to show some cracks is balancing huge model pools. When you have 100+ models to balance with a master, it can really make it challenging. Not to mention it can really restrict design space. "Rasputina could really use a model that does XYZ, but if we give her one, it will make Marcus WAY too powerful". So it's easy to see why they are doing that, and cleaning up the cross-faction hiring stuff by using keywords, but I do share your fears. I hope it's a wide keyword and not too narrow "you get to pick 7 of these 9 models to play with each game"

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