Third Edition is Coming!!

[admiralvorkraft]

I've spent a couple days getting caught up on the thread so this is going to be a bit of a scatter-shot post. 

First and foremost I think that model rotation is critical for a sustainable competitive scene. Now that rotation would have to be well communicated and predictable - if we know that the named models in a given book will rotate out of "standard" after three or five years or whatever then we can plan our purchases accordingly. As Ramos has been basically my only Arcanist master for a couple years I feel people's frustration at "losing" them out of no where, but there's a reason why every card game has a rotating tournament model. It's just simply impossible to balance five years worth of releases all at once and continue to add a book each year. The only way to shrink the number of interactions that need balancing to a manageable level while continuing to release new models at a rate that keeps Wyrd profitable is to rotate some models out of competitive play. Now there should also be an official "legacy" model or something similar for those people that enjoy holding ten thousand interactions in their head at all times, but for most people a smaller pool will make the game more skill based and less gotcha-based.

The same goes for streamlining. Memorizing combos is a skill, but it's a really boring one and building a game around memorization doesn't make a game deeper, it makes a game broader. Imposing reasonable limits puts the focus on creative thinking on the tabletop - how do you use the tools you have to get what you need. That's strictly a good thing in my book, right now it's way too easy to reveal crews and go, "well, I didn't bring the hard counter to X so that's pretty much the game then." Don't get me wrong, skill is still a major factor in Malifaux but the build/counter-build factor is getting really high.

With all that said, my only solid complaint is about the cards. I don't care so much about size (though standard playing card size is definitely the most convenient for those with good vision) but the cards should be optimized for clarity and usability above all else and the M2E layout is hard to beat. At the very least the health bar on the new cards should be moved up to just below the stat block and the faction symbol should be moved off of the stat line so that it's not breaking up the actually relevant gameplay information. I'm biased towards landscape presentation after my years of Battlefleet Gothic, so take that criticism with an appropriate serving of salt.

I'm only really concerned about increased threat ranges and mobility options. Walk actions are already a rarity at this point and I'd much rather see a more slowly evolving board state that encourages planning for turn 5 over the current meat grinder. But I'll keep an open mind. Anything that limits crews from hanging back and playing with themselves rather than mixing it up in the scramble for points is probably a good thing.

[Azkral]

On 7/26/2018 at 12:33 PM, Mr Janje said:

Lilith in a wheelchair, like Abuela 

A decent Angel Eyes

[Mason]

4 hours ago, Seadhna said:

@Mason will there be an updated timing chart for duels?

Yup.

 

 

[MetaphoricDragn]

6 hours ago, Razhem said:

I do fear for unthemed models though, I mean, outside of Leveticus, who does Dead Rider go with?

 

It was mentioned somewhere, but one of the new keywords is Versatile, models that aren't in a specific theme, but can be hired without penalty.  Things like the effigies.

[Parker Barrows]

On 7/26/2018 at 12:37 AM, anab0lic said:

Surely it should be the other way round... All masters are legal unless the TO wants to run a narrative event... and you know what?  I don't think many would show up to such an event which would be quite telling as to how many are in this hobby for the story and how many value game play above all else.   

I support Wyrd's way. As a TO, I prefer the default being no. That way I can say yes rather than having to say no.

On 7/26/2018 at 12:47 AM, Stonewall78 said:

Hard sleeves or just soft? I know some people that like hard sleeves. I have no problems with size change other then the money I spent on all the sleeves (for tons of cards) but both options would be nice. They are likely going to take up more table space too which might suck. It may drive more to use the app which may not be so bad.

I hope avatars will still be official emissary proxies as I have a couple I still love to use.
Will old nightmare boxes still get the new options. I have the old dead justice crew I would still like to use as resser models. I also have the McCabe nightmare box and with him going Outcast only I wouldn't be able to use him with the guild guard. Maybe have him become an alt for Cornelius Basse? Hell even make it so he can be used as McCabe still so then I will be forced to buy more outcast models. The more options you give people the more factions they will expand out too in the future.

I can't think of too many other nightmare crews that are dual faction though. I think the more thought that is put into all the alt models and old models that are put out will really keep all the old time players in the game as they won't feel like their collections are no longer valued. May take a small list as counts as models but I know 1st to 2nd had the same issue.

It's kinda of sad. Now the Guild's victory won't even result in their Nightmare Edition being usable by them (well, besides a few models)

On 7/26/2018 at 3:20 AM, lusciousmccabe said:

I think understand that sentiment a bit better. I feel a certain amount of nostalgia for the days of 1st ed when the quality of writing was such that the game felt like it had a strong narrative while still maintaining a fairly continuous status quo. Also don't really appreciate the value of relegating interesting, storied characters to second string to bump up the likes of Captain "No-one has ever cared about me in the history of the game" Dashel. 

But in terms of gameplay the idea that models should remain playable forever is basically nonsense. Things have limited shelf-lives, there isn't a single object you own that is guaranteed to be of use to you forever, that's the nature of life, not just wargames. Wyrd are going out of their way to cater to people who want to bring their old masters across, but I'd say there'll probably be more players who pick up new masters because they don't like how the new version plays than because there isn't a tournament legal one. 

I'm actually pretty excited about Dashel. Between him and the new terrain guy, I'm really thinking of making Guild my main faction (currently, they're number 7).

On 7/26/2018 at 3:33 AM, Kalins said:

Kind of an off topic question:

Is there gonna be a video of some sorts that would highlight the gameplay from gencon?

I second this.

On 7/26/2018 at 1:23 PM, Mason said:

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with allowing players to use apps to make lists in whatever fashion works best for them.

I just don't like the idea of making the app mandatory.

Some people out there don't have smart phones, after all.

This. We got one guy like that in my playgroup. I personally prefer physical cards over Apps (those are for gambling disguised as games, except winning doesn't get you money).

[DeleteAccount]

3 hours ago, MetaphoricDragn said:

It was mentioned somewhere, but one of the new keywords is Versatile, models that aren't in a specific theme, but can be hired without penalty.  Things like the effigies.

Ok, cool, do hope these end up being fairly limited in number though

[Absinthe624]

After expressing my concerns about DMH models in some of the social media groups that cover my state's Malifaux scene, the local Henchmen have unanimously agreed that DMH are 100% good to go for all our tourneys, so that's exciting! It's good to see they are listening. 🤩

[Bengt]

10 hours ago, Razhem said:

I do fear for unthemed models though, I mean, outside of Leveticus, who does Dead Rider go with?

There is a "keyword" for unthemed models (was it versatile?), emissaries and effigies are confirmed to have it, the riders also seems like good candidates.

[Saduhem]

51 minutes ago, Absinthe624 said:

After expressing my concerns about DMH models in some of the social media groups that cover my state's Malifaux scene, the local Henchmen have unanimously agreed that DMH are 100% good to go for all our tourneys, so that's exciting! It's good to see they are listening. 🤩

I believe most TOs will go for that. I'm more concerned about the support the DMH masters will receive in the form of updgrades and thematic/new models. Until we get more information, there isn't really any way to know.

[Absinthe624]

8 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

I believe most TOs will go for that. I'm more concerned about the support the DMH masters will receive in the form of updgrades and thematic/new models. Until we get more information, there isn't really any way to know.

Yea, thematic/new models are just about guaranteed not to happen while Masters are in DMH purgatory - I can live with that. Not getting proper upgrades is definitely a valid concern still. I am happy at least for my local scene that TO's are on board, that at least moves me back to hopeful status.

[Saduhem]

4 minutes ago, Absinthe624 said:

Yea, thematic/new models are just about guaranteed not to happen while characters in DMH purgatory - I can live with that. Not getting proper upgrades is definitely a valid concern still. I am happy at least for my local scene TO's are on board, that at least moves me back to hopeful status.

I am afraid you're correct. Although, given the thematic hiring (of which I'm enamored with), how are DMH Masters going to do without?

Edit: I guess some models are going to have multiple thematic keywords, some of which will fall under the jurisdiction of the DMH models. So, dolls could be puppets/nightmares maybe.

[Absinthe624]

1 minute ago, Saduhem said:

I am afraid you're correct. Although, given the thematic hiring (of which I'm enamored with), how are DMH Masters going to do without?

Oh I think I misunderstood the context where you used thematic - I thought you meant like Nightmare editions and such. As for how you meant it - I dunno, that is problematic. Hopefully, that can be addressed satisfactorily during Beta.

[phloog]

Many are offended by the changes.  My thoughts will likely offend many:

I bought Malifaux, from metal and 1e to the present, as a GAME.  I currently own hundreds of Malifaux minis, having nearly complete collections for most factions. On my third big Battle Foam case.

I know I may be odd, but I almost never read the fluff, and while the ideas are interesting, it's not the most gripping story/writing.

The idea that they're making huge changes and destroying value of existing purchases in service to this (IMO) mediocre fiction is just wrong.  For me the decision unless something changes is between staying with 2e or selling all my stuff.

The Dead Man's Hand stuff is totally flawed. There will be no effort to balance them, or keep them balanced against the "active" models...BUT...even if they did want to try to keep them balanced, eliminating them from most structured play means that even if they had good intents they'll never get the DATA needed to do it correctly.  These models will become more and more imbalanced,  until even organizers who allowed them will ban them, or they won't be worth playing.

 

 

[phloog]

One more bit....am I misremembering,  or wasn't there a bit in 1E or 2E that talked about Malifaux being so strange that two of the same Master could fight each other?  Even if that is incorrect, the strangeness of Malifaux does make any fluff that bars models a bit artificial and silly.

[w00mie]

I don't know if this has been answered before.

Is it planned to keep the app updated?

If so, do I have to buy the cards again when third Edition arrives? 

[Tors]

2 hours ago, phloog said:

Many are offended by the changes.  My thoughts will likely offend many:

I bought Malifaux, from metal and 1e to the present, as a GAME.  I currently own hundreds of Malifaux minis, having nearly complete collections for most factions. On my third big Battle Foam case.

I know I may be odd, but I almost never read the fluff, and while the ideas are interesting, it's not the most gripping story/writing.

The idea that they're making huge changes and destroying value of existing purchases in service to this (IMO) mediocre fiction is just wrong.  For me the decision unless something changes is between staying with 2e or selling all my stuff.

The Dead Man's Hand stuff is totally flawed. There will be no effort to balance them, or keep them balanced against the "active" models...BUT...even if they did want to try to keep them balanced, eliminating them from most structured play means that even if they had good intents they'll never get the DATA needed to do it correctly.  These models will become more and more imbalanced,  until even organizers who allowed them will ban them, or they won't be worth playing.

 

 

So after investing hundreds of whatever currency to buy most models and master (maybe even painting them in hundreds of hours) your reasoning is to sell most of them because there MAY be events, where you possibly can't field less than half a dozen of them? Indeed - odd. 

This Thread Is full of raging and panicking about Masters being deleted and at the end of the day, there will be what? Around 10% of the Events which disallow the dead mens Hand...

Organizers want fully booked events, there is literally no reason to even potenially anger their playerbase. 

[still-young]

On 7/28/2018 at 9:51 AM, Kyris said:

I don't know, for me its this weird thing where I'd probably get more use out of them if they were legal proxies.

I'm not yet, but I do have the intention of going competitive. I may never do it, I may do it starting in 3E, I may do it tomorrow, who knows. But, doing so, I feel like learning DMH masters is almost a waste of my time. I assume we won't be using them at the higher end tournaments, so...Why would I spend my time learning Lilith, getting used to having her on my bench, knowing the ins and outs of how she plays, only to lose access to that playstyle in those higher end tournaments? that's just games I could've spent getting better at one of the other masters. Titania and Nekima, respectively, seem to be analogous to her various playstyles but there's a lot of nuance there that means I doubt they'd play the same. and, Wyrd, for what it's worth, I really, really hope Titania plays very close, if not identical, to what a terrain lilith build is like; thats my favorite playstyle.

 

That said, there is still a lot I like about this edition. streamlining is almost always a good thing in my experience; while games CAN be over simplified...they can also be overly complicated to. and its not like Malifaux is at risk of being overly simplistic just because a few abilities are being combined together into something more generic, but functionally the same.

A lot of the new masters sound super fun as well. I'm really happy about Resser getting jack and von shtook. Euripides sounds really, really fun to play.

I'm optimistic that the changes to burning and the new edition will give Kaeris some breathing room so that she'll actually be....good.

If you’re going proper competitive, there’s always gonna be models that aren’t worth learning, because some choices are just always going to be better, competitively. And these models that are worth taking almost always shuffle a bit as editions change over. So if you’re a hardcore competitive player, a new edition will almost always ‘invalidate’ some models anyway. 

[Parker Barrows]

On 7/27/2018 at 2:48 AM, Davie said:

And I actually doubt that.

Fluff-wise mercenaries in Malifaux are more than plausible. Loyalties are in constant limbo and it makes total sense for people working for the highest bidder.

From a gameplay-perspective I agree that mercs can be a Problem balancewise. Maybe the tax will increase? Or maybe there will be a restriction in numbers? e.g. just one or two mercs per Crew.

Actually, mercenaries being banned makes the new "no mercenary" standard inline with the fluff.

On 7/27/2018 at 3:48 AM, Absinthe624 said:

I have just recently gotten into Malifaux. After much reading and pestering of friends that played, I had just made a relatively large Neverborn purchase centered around Lilith only to find out she's effectively nixed come 3rd. Yes, she can be played casually, and yes she may be allowed in tourneys, but not having an absolute there bugs me beyond measure (I'm a Sith, get over it). Luckily, I still have the receipt (and they were just purchased two weeks ago), so come the morning they'll be returned. When I have concrete information in my hand - i.e. M3E Rules and all Stat Cards, I will potentially revisit the crew decision making process and purchase.

Well, of all the DMH Master's Lilith is the one who is being hurt the least. Nekima is stepping and fulfilling her role. All of Lilith's theme stuff should be able to be used by Nekima no problem.

On 7/27/2018 at 5:45 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

One could summon and blow up Constructs while the other one boosts and moves them around. They manage to have two Masters whose main schtick is to punch little guys in the same faction as well, and make them different enough from one another.

So their niche is too broad but if they come back it can be made fit? Why couldn't it be made fit already?

I mean, I do agree that they currently do quite a few things. Lilith has her movement stuff, terrain stuff and swording as well as cards and black blood and so on. But surely you could condense them to a couple of key traits? I don't understand how that should be any more difficult than what they've done to, e.g., Marcus.

When Lilith does come back (as a legit Master, possibly not until ME4), I see her running an entirely different crew. While Marcus is shifting his focus a little, I suspect Lilith will be shifting her focus by miles.

On 7/27/2018 at 12:38 PM, Kyris said:

(1) the aesthetic of a game is different from its lore. The aesthetic is absolutely a huge draw. But, I was talking about the lore. the fluff. the story.

(2) I never claimed that *most people* don't care about the story. I never said anything about what other people like. He wanted to push this argument of "well, would you even play without the lore? no you wouldn't. so clearly the lore is the most important aspect". and apart from pissing me off that he's going to put words in my mouth, assume he knows how I would answer his question and trying to answer for me, he's also just wrong.

To be entirely honest i don't even read the lore. I haven't even bought the 5th wave book because the only thing I wanted out of it was the upgrades, which I just bought the upgrade pack for, the stat cards come with the models anyway so the only thing the wave books do for me is help me plan which models to buy.

then, respectively, don't ask me a question if you're going to assume the answer and put words in my mouth. If you want my opinion, you're more than free to ask for it. If you want to have a conversation, I am more than happy to have a conversation about the ways in which we agree or disagree on this move on Wyrds part, or anything else, really. But I take exception to this sort of rhetoric.

 

1. Aesthetic and lore are intertwined. The lore makes it work. Seriously, ever try to explain Malifaux? Cowboy steampunk Victorian horror with a side of ninjas and hillbillies thrown in? Lore ties the very different themes into one unified aesthetic.

2. Well, OK then. But you have to understand you have an extremely tiny minority opinion. It's a bit much to get this mad that someone assumes that you hold an opinion that most people have. Honestly, I consider caring about aesthetic as a part of caring about the lore. Even if you don't bother reading the fluff.

Also, for someone upset about having words (a reasonable, if incorrect assumption) put into your mouth, but you certainly have no problem strawmanning other people.

On 7/27/2018 at 12:55 PM, Kyris said:

Typical. No one can just apologize or admit they did something wrong, can they? they always have to be a snippy, snide little jerk about it.

Just saying, this is the kind of attitude that drove me against the people who didn't like ME2 during the last change. It doesn't help your cause. It just helps divide the fanbase and brings nothing but negativity and bitterness to community. 

Nothing Lalochezia was being snide. He explains that he thinks caring NOTHING about the lore is so different from his point of view, that there's no use in arguing about it and then genuinely wishes you find some satisfaction in what happens.

He uses the term absurd, but that is clearly in the extremity of your stance on the scale of what he sees and logical opinions. It was in no way an insult to you or your views. And even if, for the sake of argument, there was a little passive aggressiveness in there, openly calling him a jerk is not cool. If you felt he was being rude, call him out (as I'm doing with you), but find a better way than just calling him a jerk. EXAMPLE: "My point of view isn't absurd. And I don't appreciate the passive aggressive framing my views as absurd before wishing me well." There. That's how you could have called him out without being rude. I would still think that was not his intention, but might have said so, but I wouldn't have called you out for being rude and certainly not wrote this long post about it.

Look. I get that your angry. You have every right to be. But from a logical standpoint, you are not helping yourself by being so aggressive. Honestly, I was very sympathetic to people losing their favorite Masters. But the more I read posts like this, the less I care. *Why would I feel bad for people who are running around insulting people? I remember being happy when the hardcore 1E people left.

That IS NOT saying I would be happy to see you leave. I do not want you to quit. I am just trying to get you (and some of the other aggressive posters) to temper your anger before it poisons the community like it did during the last edition change. Because it won't get you what you want. If anything, it will only rally the community around the other side. Of course, I'm not saying you shouldn't feel angry. Only temper that anger into well reasoned arguments than devolving into name calling. If you feel someone is being rude, call them out on it. But do it in way that isn't insulting. Like this post. Despite it's length, I haven't attacked you personally, just calling out your behavior. I want you to take it as constructive criticism so you can improve your future arguments (whether against 3E or someone who you feel is being rude to you).

Remember, if you actually want change, you will need most people agreeing with you. Wyrd isn't going to change their business model based a few people being rude to each other on the forums. They are going to change their business model if their fanbase unites against it. And it's not going to do that with calling the other side jerks (even if you feel it is justified).

*Obviously, most people who have been complaining have not been acting like this. I'm just worried about the future. Even if it is just a minority of the 3E haters running around insulting people, it will cause bitterness in the community and turn many who are neutral or only lean slightly one way or the other against the side that is being so aggressive.

[Parker Barrows]

On 7/27/2018 at 1:12 PM, katadder said:

All day every day. Would love pre paints. People can still paint them how they like as you can see xwing players do this

YES!

On 7/27/2018 at 4:52 PM, Saduhem said:

I think that assuming the lack of support for Masters in Dead Man's Hand is a safer bet than expecting entire new books dedicated to their return. That would remove the whole point of Dead Man's Hand entirely.

These guys are gone except for friendly games. It's coherent with Lore, I get it.

It would be nice to be able to at least have these models recognized as official proxies. Lilith as a beckoner, Collodi and marionettes as Coppelius and Alps/daydreams and so on.

It's a hard pill to swallow but, if it leads to what seems to be a polished version of the game I love, it's worth it.

I would just prefer to be able to have an official use for models that I purchased and painted that's not relegated to a different format. And I highly doubt that they're going to ever release models that are meant to be primarily hired by a "legacy master". It wouldn't make sense from a business perspective.

Honestly, they could still support them to an extent easily. For example, Dreamer gets a creepy Ventriloquist Dummy as an Enforcer. It could have both Nightmare and Puppet. I'm not saying they'll get the same amount as regular Masters, but a few here and there seems very possible.

On 7/27/2018 at 5:04 PM, Malovane said:

The point of the Dead Man's Hand, as far as we've been informed is to provide rules for models that are no longer currently active in the fiction.  It isn't to remove them from the universe entirely.  To me it feels like a blatant setup for a later release/return.

Sure, I can see this for official "lore" tournament purpose.  However, these models will all still have rules as themselves, so it would then create a point of confusion in tournaments that are allowing "dead man's hand" models.  In casual games, we can proxy to our heart's content.

I would love to have an official use in M3E for all the avatars I own, but sadly that doesn't appear to be the case.  I can still maintain hope and keep a positive outlook.  In the meantime, they still look great and can serve as casual proxies.

Some more so than others. Lilith is literally set for return (Zorida says she's needed). Nicodem might legitimately be dead or come back in another form (Henchman to Rezzer's newest Master, Mortimer). Honestly, I fully expect at least some of the ones that return to have a different card than the DMH's hand card.

18 hours ago, Razhem said:

As for the dead masters I can live with it but would appreciate oficial proxy rules for mainstream masters, as in I can use my Nicodem to represent transmortis guy for example. On another front, frankly, all of the out of comision models I think have good odds of coming back due to fluff. Lilith is just a prisoner as well as Ramos and Nico certainly is on the good side of the Grace Spirit, so him coming back as a lich isn't that much of a streetch.

For what it's worth, I will totally allow proxying them in in the few non-DMH events I run.

18 hours ago, Lalochezia said:

My LGS was out of Titania so I just picked up the new Nekima to paint while we await 3rd.

It’s Neverborn this edition!

Looks at the newly promoted Dashel and Cornelius. Nah. I'm going to have say this is the Guild Edition.

PS: Sorry for the double post. I didn't think I had time to finish the Thread.

[Kyris]

32 minutes ago, Parker Barrows said:

If you felt he was being rude, call him out (as I'm doing with you), but find a better way than just calling him a jerk. EXAMPLE: "My point of view isn't absurd. And I don't appreciate the passive aggressive framing my views as absurd before wishing me well." There. That's how you could have called him out without being rude. I would still think that was not his intention, but might have said so, but I wouldn't have called you out for being rude and certainly not wrote this long post about it.

Which is what I did the first time. I've been nothing but perfectly civil to start with. But if I ask someone politely to not use such poor arguments against me, and not to put words in my mouth and their response is essentially "Oh, I'M SORRY, Here I thought you were a logical person. my mistake for assuming you had sense". I'm not going to remain civil.

[Dragoon130]

On 7/27/2018 at 11:55 AM, retnab said:

I'm still hoping The Council eventually does get around to jailbreaking him so we can get him in TOS (riding the Leviathan like the badass he is in the fluff maybe?), though with them getting last place in Homefront I'm not holding my breath  

Am I sad Ramos isn't in the Arcanists anymore? Yeah, especially since he's one of my favourites to play and one of my original two purchases. However, the fact that he's still playable makes that a lot better IMO and I 100% will be playing him still.  And let's be honest, the VAST majority of us don't do official Wyrd tournaments, just casual play or local tourneys, so for almost everyone the change is going to be pretty negligible, especially if you ask your henchmen / TO's to allow DMH masters in your local tourneys.

My biggest problem with this is that my KS was a full Cult of the Burning Man backing and I know Ramos astride Levi will not be in the Cult, and while I may be bad with impulse buys, the wife would draw and quarter me if I came home with another full faction buy for a game of that size. 😛

[retnab]

5 minutes ago, Dragoon130 said:

My biggest problem with this is that my KS was a full Cult of the Burning Man backing and I know Ramos astride Levi will not be in the Cult, and while I may be back with impulse buys, the wife would draw and quarter me if I came home with another full faction buy for a game of that size. 😛

I'm in the same boat.  My partner just said she did NOT want to know how much I blew on the Kickstarter  

[Dragoon130]

On 7/27/2018 at 1:53 PM, Blastaar said:

Painting, while enjoyable, takes time and effort, and the end goal is playing games with those models. The enjoyment of painting and the time and effort required at best balance each other out. How many game models would sell if they weren't tied to the experience of playing games? The goal is to play games with those models. To reach that goal takes your time and effort with a brush.

By your reasoning, companies like Wyrd should charge even higher prices for their kits, because we aren't just receiving plastic in the box, we get the privilege of spending as few or as many hours as we choose painting them. Painting is not part of the value- especially considering that paints and brushes are not free.

So I don't think you're wrong on this point but I would just like to state I do own minis for games I don't like solely for the joy of painting and displaying a sculpt I adore. I acknowledge I'm the weird minority in this but we are out there. To be honest I don't see it as very different from the Gunpla I also collect and paint which may be the diversion point. Though there is actually a fan made game for those that I've recently been trying out. 

 

Edit: I was catching up on the thread and apparently a few others came out of our strange paint stained holes to say this as well. 

[Dragoon130]

2 hours ago, Parker Barrows said:

 

When Lilith does come back (as a legit Master, possibly not until ME4), I see her running an entirely different crew. While Marcus is shifting his focus a little, I suspect Lilith will be shifting her focus by miles.

 

One friend is a huge Lilith lover and a lover of summoning as a style. I was talking to them about how Lilith may work if/when she came back and they said "Imagine if her Nephilim "Growth" mechanics are retooled and she becomes a in your face melee monster that focuses on summoning from the damage she deals." It would have to be tooled and balanced but I really liked their idea. 

[Saduhem]

I'm seeing a lot of comments here criticizing the people who are mourning their gone Masters.

Depending on how much time you spent painting specific models, how much you played them, and honestly, personal tastes, this can matter a lot or nothing at all. 

Part of the function of the forums is to express these feelings among people that are part of the hobby, you can't just go to your office and complain about how much you're going to Miss Ramos from now on.

I, personally, believe there are business decisions behind these choices more than strict adherence to fluff. Someone wanting to play Lynch is going to probably now buy more ten Thunders models, Outcasts are going to purchase Gremlins for zipp, and if you used Coryphee and Mannequins with Collodi you might want to buy Colette and, since you're venturing in Arcanist territory, go ahead and pick up Marcus.

For people that have played a long time, the new incentive to purchase models across factions might bring freshness to the collection and, at the same time, provide revenue to the company without which the game would not exist.

The downside is that shuffling around factions and promoting cross buys will hurt people when their favorite models are the casualties of this revolution.

One might not care to shelf a Ramos with a base coat and a quick wash, but the person who spent dozens of hours with an airbrush, weathering metals, wet blending, painting faces, sculpting thematic bases from polymer clay, playing a lot with the crew, and developing an emotional attachment to the crews/concepts/sculpts is going to feel hurt. A lot.

If people feel cheated out of their favorite stuff, no one can ask them to feel differently nor should they be criticized for it, Dead Man's Hand or not.