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Nef

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Speaking about the henchman as leaders thing, I believe if they are the keader, they get an additional action per activation and the other perk is they can hire from any of their keywords without paying extra.

Remains to be seen if it's enough, but if henchman actions aren't that much worse than a masters and they happen to have a nice pair of keywords, they could situationally be a thing.

This assuming that masters only have 1 hiring keyword and it's the henchman who end up with possible multiples.

For example, Wrath could in theory have a crew of crossroads seven and tormented while packing a third action which at the bare minimum gives another alternative playstyle to what something like Jack Daw would do with tormented. Single keyword henchman like Montresor will be harder sells, but henchman led crews have always felt like a novelty or a system contemplated way to handicap yourself instead of a realistic option and I'm fine with that.

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I don’t personally understand why there is any desire to hire henchmen as leaders. I mean they aren’t masters. If Wyrd is going to go with a tiered system master should lead crews, period. Perhaps with an exception for formats where masters aren’t allowed. Henchman on Henchman sounds fine and dandy, Henchman on Master seems non-sensible, and doesn’t add enough to the system to account for all the fiddling that needs to go into making it viable. Same question I asked in M2E, If a Henchman leading a crew is as good as a master, why aren’t they a master? If the goal is to lead the crew with things other than a master, why can’t I lead my crew with any model I want, and have it be balanced, why limit your balancing mechanism to only henchmen? 

Personal opinion would be to just jettison trying to make henchmen on master games viable, and make henchmen on henchmen a variant format. Seems easier, better, and more elegant all round to me. Again I just don’t see what value in a mechanical system sense their is in trying to make henchmen on master games viable.

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18 hours ago, whodares said:

@Mason Do you have any information which you can share regarding the Cat boxes of Hamelin? I've been thinking of getting them, but the current investment is quite big. To play Hamelin, you need the crew ($90), Cat Princess box x2 (50) and Cat Herders (30) whichs brings it to a total of $170. I live in Europe, so I'll also have to add in a decent amount of shipping cost and tariffs, which will probably raise the total to €200+

 

That's quite a lot of money, so I'm holding off on buying until I know whether or not Hamelin will still work with those boxes in M3E. It would really rub the wrong foot if I bought it and He stops using the Rat Kings/ Rat Catchers/Rats in general. It's already been shown with different masters that Nightmare boxes don't stop any drastic changes.

 

Could you answer this question or is that already too much into the NDA/uncertain territory?

All of Hamelin's rat engine models will be around in M3E.

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Totally get that, but don’t understand why any mechanisms need to be in place to give henchmen an artificial leg up in that case. If the intent is just fun, leave it as an option, but don’t actually institute a system where if you choose a henchmen they get bonus x, y, and z. Shouldn’t the fun of playing the henchman be enough and not require they also become another master?

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I used to have Lucius lead my crew back when he was a henchman and it was pretty fun. He was closer to having 3 AP than most masters at that stage as well.

The only issue I can see for henchman led games would be if they become better than a master for their cost with the extra AP, given that they'll have to cost less for ordinary crew building. 

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25 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I used to have Lucius lead my crew back when he was a henchman and it was pretty fun. He was closer to having 3 AP than most masters at that stage as well.

The only issue I can see for henchman led games would be if they become better than a master for their cost with the extra AP, given that they'll have to cost less for ordinary crew building. 

Masters will have free totem, i heard. 

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19 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

"Personally, I think the increase in art on the cards to about half the real estate on the front, is completely unnecessary (especially if visual aid is a reason),"

This for me in spades....I have been collecting since 1e.....I don't need the huge art, and frankly odds are high that my models may not even look like the newer art anymore.

But my biggest card switch gripe is simply the amount of space they will now take up for NO advantage in use...even if the format is better that could be still done with the same form factor.

Oh....this just in....Fate decks are switching size as well: 

http://bit.ly/2L6aeKS

😜

 

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14 minutes ago, phloog said:

This for me in spades....I have been collecting since 1e.....I don't need the huge art, and frankly odds are high that my models may not even look like the newer art anymore.

But my biggest card switch gripe is simply the amount of space they will now take up for NO advantage in use...even if the format is better that could be still done with the same form factor.

Oh....this just in....Fate decks are switching size as well: 

http://bit.ly/2L6aeKS

😜

 

I think its a bit of following the trend of new gateway games like Shadespire artwise. Personally the new cards look a bit too much 'Bioshock Infinite Vigour management UI' and not nearly enough 'Weird Western' for me. I liked the HP bullet holes and tatty old parchment look!

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If I may chime in and beat the "hireable Masters could be a mistake"-dead-horse further, I'd like to point out that while the idea, to me, sounds good in theory it is how it interacts with other ideas that could be a problem. The biggest one that comes to mind is the potential balancing pit falls hireable Masters introduces when coupled with a non-thematic hiring tax. Take for example Hamelin. As far as I am aware, Hamelin has no thematic beater model. This isn't a problem in and of itself with the tax because he could just pay an additional stone to hire one of Outcasts many beaters. This seems like a good solution until you take into account the Viks because if the Hamelin player decides to hire the Viks rather than the beater they get three models for the price of the Master cost instead of having to pay the tax for one non-thematic beater. To make the beater a desirable choice in this example, you would either have to undercost the beater, which could lead to other problems, or in some way create an incentive to hire the beater instead of the Viks.

There are two realistic ways I can see to incentivize the hiring of the beater.The first, and most obvious way, seems to be to create more synergies between Masters and their thematic crews so that Masters won't perform at 100% when hired. The second is to influence model choices through the Strats and Schemes. I cannot begin to contemplate how to balance the choice between Masters and non-Masters through the Strats and Schemes so I cannot comment on this choice's practicality, but I can see the potential pitfalls through the first choice. While I believe it is possible to achieve a good balance for Masters through thematic synergies I do not think that this is desireable for the game. If Masters on the whole are balanced through crew synergies this could create a homogeneity between playstyles of not only the Masters but entire crews. This is especially problematic for a game whose audience values the uniqueness of play-styles between individual models.

For all those that had the patience to read this thank you for your time and sorry for the poor formatting. The only other thing I would like to add is that I am excited for 3e despite the above concerns. Since the announcement I have purchased the Broken Promises Upgrades, a Molly crew box, a Von Schill crew box, Anna Lovelace, a Metal Jack Daw, a box of Dead Outlaws, and a box of Desperate Mercs! I plan on buying more because I could not be more excited for proximity mines! 

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15 hours ago, dope_danny said:

I think its a bit of following the trend of new gateway games like Shadespire artwise. Personally the new cards look a bit too much 'Bioshock Infinite Vigour management UI' and not nearly enough 'Weird Western' for me. I liked the HP bullet holes and tatty old parchment look!

Hi dope, while I'm picking on your text for a quote I direct my reply more to those that say they prefer the old cards etc.

While I don have an opinion regarding the size there is a concept we have to understand regarding the artwork etc.

Some say "oh I don't need artwork bigger" or " I prefer the old tattered look" but that doesn't mean it's really the best option just because some of us (players and lovers of Malifaux) prefer it that way. But there is such things as "Visual culture", and even if "you" prefer it the old way doesn't mean it's the best option for the game, gamers, or Wyrd. There is also such thing as the "experience" of playing a game and the artwork really contributes for that experience as the handling of objects and tokens etc. And let's not forget market, marketing, etc. I can assure you that the bigger card and new artwork and card design contributes heavily to this new experience. I am also sure that if you picked a "new" game (new edition) with cards that don't fit this new "visual culture" Wyrd would lose in the long run just to "please" the current players.

To me, personally, I am afraid that the new concept designs change the look and feel I loved in Malifaux, but that doesn't mean I don't understand the objective. It may not fit me, but I'm sure fits the game and Wyrd objectives. Again, I could just quit playing (not going to happen...) like I did some games, just because it makes me unhappy, but that is my personal option, doesn't mean they have to change the game just because it made "me" unhappy.

Voice concerns, not personal opinions. Or you can voice them but don't make as it is an issue of the game.

For instance, my concern regarding the new card size is: while Tarot size has it's cool aspect and the new card concept fits the new Design concept and increasing text size is good what worries me is if it is also used to add more text in to the rulesm when it shoud be the reverse, better done copy so we don't need so much text. I'm afraid that it will be used to add more text because there is more "space". I get that in my line of work all the time...

 

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All of this is likely moot in terms of me not playing anymore.

Unless I can find someone who wants to buy my entire collection of hundreds of assembled but unpainted Malifaux models, I'm going to have them to play...so unless somebody wants a great deal on an instant Malifaux collection, the REAL question is whether I play 2e or 3e.

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As a brand new player to Malifaux with 1 demo game under his belt I can say with certainty that my biggest complaint with the game is hands down the fact critical information for characters is on the front and backs of cards. I hated the fact I had to keep flipping cards over trying to recall what they do and check numbers and symbols etc. I WOULD LOVE if cards were larger and all the information was located on the front of the card. Its not like they would need to be drastically larger so I don't think it would be too inconvenient for carry / storage complaints etc. PLEASE DO THIS! lol

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On 8/16/2018 at 1:05 PM, Adran said:

Honestly, I've probably played over 500 games, with about 300 being M2e, and in all that time I think I have had 2 games ( one each edition) where I would say I lost because of the joker rules. (Both were because I couldn't cheat, it's possible there are some I won that I shouldn't have thanks to a joker, but I don't think so). There have been many incidents where it made a big difference, but it wasn't the single issue that caused the loss. Sure, occasionally it kills your master turn 2, but that doesn't mean game loss. I've won and lost more games because of bad/good hands than jokers. It can disrupt plans but normally if it's not the final turn you can try and adapt. 

I'm not sure how many single incidents in a game where the flip is that critical that to lose that flip will cost you the game. At least not the way I play. (I'm likely to make a mistake somewhere so try and have redundancy in the list, and a back up plan for when things go wrong). 

Haha thats pretty crazy because my very first game ever came down to me losing because I flipped a black joker on damage where all I needed was the min and it was locked up lol.. that said I hope they don't change the mechanic. I love the fact that there is a chance no matter how small or likely that an attack has a 100% chance to miss or succeed or dmg or not. Hope it stays!

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Regrading all concerns about the card designs, since Wyrd is going to put all cards online for free, I believe it is not that hard to make a fan-make version stat cards. For example I am planning to make my own version that the front and the end is in the same side, just mentioned above, for future demo game.

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What i dislike about an edition change in any game is all the speculation that is accepted as fact. Nothing wrong with speculation but it is just that. Lets wait and see whats in store, we don't know definitively a vast majority yet. I understand some are afraid their favourite faction/ character/ interaction may get changed but we must wait and see. myself i cant wait for the new edition Im tired of having to have an encyclopedic knowledge of every interaction in the game (which i dont) and then seeing the same combos over and over anyway.

My greatest hope is that all of the keyword models cover everything you need without having to go out of keyword. Wouldnt it be great to see Guild crews without Francisco and Phiona unless its their themed faction? Not Belles in every resser list? etc etc.

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  • 1 month later...
On 8/20/2018 at 4:29 PM, phloog said:

All of this is likely moot in terms of me not playing anymore.

Unless I can find someone who wants to buy my entire collection of hundreds of assembled but unpainted Malifaux models, I'm going to have them to play...so unless somebody wants a great deal on an instant Malifaux collection, the REAL question is whether I play 2e or 3e.

+1. I don't think many people will actually entirely quit playing, but many might just decide to stay with 2e. Personally, right now I'm oriented towards 2e...neither me nor my meta are particularly excited by this edition change, judging by the various tidbits of information that we have at this point.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/18/2018 at 1:09 PM, katadder said:

yeah this is annoying for those of us with printed maps. i think current DZs work, do we really want to be closer?

I am with you on this. Printed maps with an out of date deployment zone is an annoying thing. My fault I guess for putting them on the map but I was really not something I considered would change. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I’ve been off the forum for quite a while, as I haven’t been playing malifaux for about the past year. When I heard about this new edition a few days ago, I’m cautiously optimistic that this new edition will bring me back to the game. I have much invested in time and dollars with models, so I would love to get excited about it again. The core mechanics of malifaux is great, but the game just got to the point where it was so complex, it made it frustrating and a miserable experience for the average player, not to mention a beginner wanting to get in on it. The last set of schemes and strategies are a perfect example. I counted no less than 10 different conditions and requirements on one scheme to make you eligible to score it. Even after reading it multiple times, I still missed some things. It makes for a confusing and complex game setting and not an enjoyable and relaxing experience that a game should be. I realize that these current strats and schemes are the product of multiple “fixes” over time to stop cheesy and over the top combos that had an unfair advantage. So I feel a new edition is needed. I really hope this new edition will simplify the game and make it harder for the “experts” to exploit certain combos and loopholes, and allow the average player to relax and have fun with the game.

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On 10/19/2018 at 1:25 PM, Hot4Perdita said:

really hope this new edition will simplify the game and make it harder for the “experts” to exploit certain combos and loopholes, and allow the average player to relax and have fun with the game.

All of my schemes fit on a single two-page spread, so I think they're definitely a few steps in the right direction in terms of less "legalese" getting between players and the game.

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