Math Mathonwy Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said: I’m not sure that isn’t the case now. For all the talk of wanting variety the same models showed up pretty much all the time. The best models with the best masters show up all the time. At least this way, if they get the master balance right that is, even if you see the same models with the same master you might actually see different models with different masters. I’m all for that personally. Yeah, I noted that in the quote. I've lately been playing crews using one Master but with minimal overlap between models used and I've also been losing a lot. Turns out that the staples are staples for a reason, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranglelove Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Kyris said: false dilemma. You can advance the story and the game mechanics without risking pissing off or alienating players who main one of the masters that are now gone, or play a master in a faction that is no longer allowed. i don't see how doing that serves the player base at all. I truly don't know of a game out there that hasn't risked pissing off or alienating players when it introduced a new edition. But I'm sorry that you're disappointed. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandu Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Gnomezilla said: Personal tally: 8 masters spanning 3 factions, but 6/8 Guild, becomes 2 deGuilded into one faction I will not pursue and one I probably won’t, 1 removed. 1 promoted, 1 dual factioned into secondary faction I do own. 1 still around that I did not think would survive any sort of cull. 1 I don’t own but he’s in my faction now, no more of this ‘but Gnomezilla, you don’t want to pick up gremmies, do you’ nonsense! Infamy awaits! With a tiny teddy onboard! 39 Masters in all Factions... Not thrilled that Lilith is buried and Nico got killed, but still have a Dead Man's Hand and I don't play many tournaments, so all is well. It's nice when even the defunct Masters are still being supported. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosfr Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 I've been playing since the very tail end of 1E, but it wasn't until I first read Lilith's story and put her on the table that I really fell in love with it. While I literally own every single master and only have a few wave 5 models that I haven't purchased yet, Lilith is still my favorite. Reading her Book 5 story made me think 3E was coming, but I didn't realize it would do so without Lilith as a legal tournament model. However, I'm holding out hope. Lilith isn't dead, and in a game with Ressurectionists, dead isn't gone. She's in Nythera. I was hoping 3E would see her rise transformed like Titania was, and I'm still hoping for that. I might have to wait a year for M3E Book 2 to get it, but I can't imagine the future of Malifaux with her gone forever. Cautious optimism. I was just starting to get into Collodi, so now I feel a little bit kneecapped, but my hope is that Nekima stepping up can fill the void. Or that Titania gets a little more interesting in 3E to make it count. Funny, 3E seems targeted at what I'm playing. After playing Neverborn for so long, I just recently got my Outcasts out to mix it up... with Misaki. Oh well, I like 10T better than Outcasts anyway 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Lalochezia said: If you advance the story for years without changing how those characters within the advancing stories play at all, eventually you'll end up with characters that are entirely divorced from the story. And if the mechanics are entirely divorced from the story, is it even the game's story any more? Many games kill and permanently mutilate characters in the story a lot and new characters are born from that but the old ones are still playable in the game. Because the games don't really tell a story in the sense that the fluff tells stories. Colette didn't Eliminate the Leadership and kill Nico with the help of Burt and Gracie while Framing Archie for Murder (???). The fluff provides a framework but all games are essentially "what if" style of things. And having dead characters being available for what if scenarios is IMO fine. 3 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oost44 Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Damn I just painted up a Collodi crew and didn't even see him on the table yet 😕 Stoked that Wyrd is refreshing the game though. Hopefully this isn't an 'Age of Sigmar' failure level of change. We'll see how the new rules are, hopefully the 'thematic' crew angle doesn't force players into taking the same crew all the time. Also hoping for some changes to how scenarios/objectives play out, and campaign play. I would have been stoked just with a reworking of the point/hiring system though, and fixing the damn elevation/height rules! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrida Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 I can fully understand being upset about a favourite Master being dropped from the core lineup. It's never fun to have happen, but thankfully it's not being a hard drop with no support in the new edition at all. At least they can still be played in general play, and in situations where the TO allows it. Granted, I'm sure they won't be allowed in any tourney's meant to affect story, which makes sense. However, I will admit, I do love that it seems like the game and story are melded together to where even the tourney results can affect the story and game. For me, it helps bring the setting and game to life. This sort of evolving gameplay is why I fell in love with Legend of the Five Rings many years ago. I will be looking forward to getting into the game right as this is looming. Will make entry into 3E far easier for me. 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malovane Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Kyris said: false dilemma. You can advance the story and the game mechanics without risking pissing off or alienating players who main one of the masters that are now gone, or play a master in a faction that is no longer allowed. i don't see how doing that serves the player base at all. Also. Don't ask questions and assume the answer just to further your own argument. I would absolutely still play malifaux without the lore. The lore is frankly the thing I care the least about. I play Malifaux because its fun, and different enough from other war games that I can play it, and 40K, and other war games without it feeling too much like the same thing. To each their own. I find the advancing story fascinating and additive to the experience. It reminds me a lot of the L5R ccg where characters would grow and change and even die. Tournaments and events would dictate the progression of the narrative and influenced the game mechanics. I most certainly wouldn't have started playing Malifaux if it wasn't for the lore and aesthetic. The only thing that really kept me interested in M2E was the lore, as I found the gameplay less enjoyable. Any change is bound to alienate someone. Ultimately, wyrd's goal as a business is to move more product. Removing some masters and adding new ones is just one method to encourage continued sales, while also limiting the amount the number of product skus they need to support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyris Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Malovane said: Any change is bound to alienate someone. Ultimately, wyrd's goal as a business is to move more product. Removing some masters and adding new ones is just one method to encourage continued sales, while also limiting the amount the number of product skus they need to support. except for the fact that using their dead man's hand method. they still do have to support all of those masters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philosfr Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, Kyris said: except for the fact that using their dead man's hand method. they still do have to support all of those masters. Without being tournament legal, even 95% casual players like myself will still feel compelled to play other masters to stay up to speed for the few tournaments we play in. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malovane Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Kyris said: except for the fact that using their dead man's hand method. they still do have to support all of those masters. New cards/rules does not necessarily mean continued production of the models or box sets. If the model isn't supported in tournaments/story, its unlikely that we'll see new sculpts and box sets for those masters, and we will instead only see rules updates. Regardless, this is an rather large assumption on my part. I generally just wanted to point out that sku bloat can become a real concern in terms of production and brick/mortar shelf space. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longstrider Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 I'm happy to have characters die off as the story goes forward, or else we're just in comic book territory where there are relatively few lasting consequences to the main characters. That said, there's no reason not to have them playable instead of deleting them entirely, so Wyrd is doing just that. And since Tournaments have whatever set of variant houserules the TO feels like using, having some masters listed under a legacy format doesn't really matter - as long as the mechanics that they have are appropriately balanced. More important to me is the loss of certain masters from factions, which I think is a bigger hurdle to overcome. You can't very well print a set of optional rules that replace a part of the main rules to allow for them, so some people are just going to be turfed out by the change. Nothing that affects me enough to be bothered by, since I only ever got thematic chunks I liked anyway, but I can see why it would be a real problem for some. 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kyris said: except for the fact that using their dead man's hand method. they still do have to support all of those masters. True, but since they are balancing over 500 profiles in one go, I don't think that there's all that big a chance that the dead man's hand Masters will be well balanced and since they won't receive support in the future (errata maybe but unlikely and no new releases) they will probably become obsolete pretty fast. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyris Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just now, Philosfr said: Without being tournament legal, even 95% casual players like myself will still feel compelled to play other masters to stay up to speed for the few tournaments we play in. Not tournament legal by default, but still allowed at TO discretion....they'll still need to support them, unless it's going to be a shitty half-measure where they just release an updated stat card and never speak of them again. In which case they may as well not even do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oost44 Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Dead Man's hand masters will become novelty really quick and fall out of favour with players. My only disappointment with the announcement so far is the death of existing masters I own. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedeadclaw Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Kyris said: except for the fact that using their dead man's hand method. they still do have to support all of those masters. There's a difference between supporting for casual and competitive play though. Lilith left the story for a while, and she's consistently dominated competitive play. The same happened with Nicodim. Removing them from ccompetitive play opens up more design space because the meta will be more open without a clear "best" master for their factions. We don't know what happened to Collodi yet, but I'm betting they're going to be changed into something else and reintroduced in another faction in a future wave, since change and growth seems to be the theme for this edition. (See Marcus and McMourning as the biggest examples.) And Ramos is rough, but it allows Toni to get a lot of his signature abilities tied lore-wise to him running the Union, and will make for some interesting choices for Wyrd! They could let him be played in The Other Side, and they can eventually bring him back with an entirely different playstyle. I get why you're upset, but it's just a change. It's not good or bad yet; we won't know until it releases. You can be upset and vent as much as you want, and you're more than justified, but at the end of the day you might end up liking this edition more and you just won't know until you try it. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyris Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Thedeadclaw said: There's a difference between supporting for casual and competitive play though. They said they're tournament legal at the discretion of TO's. So, the options are to either actually support them throughout. Or gimp them to such a degree that they may as well not even have the dead man's hand to begin with. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloomy Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 23 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said: ...More people than I thought are sentimental about spiders. Not so much of ‘what about my puppets’, but lots of ‘not my steam arachnids!’. What about my puppets!!! In all seriousness this is both exciting and terrifying. It's definitely needed and will hopefully revitalise the game, a lot of people have drifted away from Malifaux over the past year or so and a new edition will certainly spark interest again. But at the same time Malifaux is already one of the best games out there so I'm a little worried that a new edition may change that. I hope not. I'm hoping TO's will include the Dead Man's Hand thing in their tournaments as I've sunk a lot of money and painting hours into Collodi and Nico and would hate to not get to use them in tournaments 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedeadclaw Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just now, Kyris said: They said they're tournament legal at the discretion of TO's. So, the options are to either actually support them throughout. Or gimp them to such a degree that they may as well not even have the dead man's hand to begin with. That reads to me that it's a "if you know your friend only wants to run Nicodim let them run him, but as a TO be aware he's not balanced for competitive play" to me. I've done tournament organizing for other games and generally that's how things like Dead Man's Hand work, and even if it's not what you want it probably is the best option to make them playable without making them automatically playable. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyris Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said: even if it's not what you want it probably is the best option to make them playable without making them automatically playable. Funny, how when it's something YOU'RE okay with you get all "well even if its something You don't like it is for the best so suck it up" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocSchlock Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 All these core and Master changes are fantastic, but the Dead Man's Hand thing is borderline insulting. Invalidating purchases is the worst, but saying you can still play them by relying on your opponent / TO to approve you doing so is almost equally as bad. Either cut them completely or make them tourney-legal (or legal proxies, which is the easiest solution). Without that, those masters quickly become irrelevant in the grand scheme of the game. If the design space can't support that number of masters, there's a problem with the overall design that needs fixed before the onus is put on your player base (which I know is easier said than done). Using fluff to justify wasting your players' money is a sure-fire way to shed goodwill. Most companies avoid that like the plague. Still, I adore everything else about 3E. I have nothing but optimism outside of the cut Masters issue. 1 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ankh0137 Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 As my gf and myself and only just started to learn the rules should we stop learning how the game works in 2e and try and get into the beta, learn from there. Or should we carry on learning 2e rules and wait for the full release of 3e? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedeadclaw Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just now, Kyris said: Funny, how when it's something YOU'RE okay with you get all "well even if its something You don't like it is for the best so suck it up" I literally spent all morning upset because Collodi was going to be my first master. You get to be upset but lashing out at people isn't okay. I'm optimistic because I realize this is for the best; that doesn't mean I like it. Don't be a jerk. 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyris Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 Just now, Thedeadclaw said: I literally spent all morning upset because Collodi was going to be my first master. You get to be upset but lashing out at people isn't okay. I'm optimistic because I realize this is for the best; that doesn't mean I like it. Don't be a jerk. Don't be a jerk? you're the one trying to act like I'm just upset but it doesn't matter because you think it's better for the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedeadclaw Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Kyris said: Don't be a jerk? you're the one trying to act like I'm just upset but it doesn't matter because you think it's better for the game. No, I think that the people who are paid to design the game know what's best for the game and I trust them I've also seen enough games stagnate to know that they probably have a better idea what they're doing than we can and I can see what some of their reasoning would be for removing these specific characters from the game. If you want to actually talk instead of picking fights I'd be happy to but I don't think inane fights are really what this thread should be for so if you just want to be angry here I'm just going to let you and ignore any of that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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