Third Edition is Coming!!

[edopersichetti]

3 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

I have the same concern, especially after talking to people who actually test 3rd edition. I do believe that having two will be a competitive minimum.

Indeed, that is perhaps my biggest concern. I find it very hard to balance the double-master option: if they're too desirable, then we end up with a situation even worse than before, where we have at least a Nekima/beater master in every faction - but if they're not desirable enough, no one would bother hiring a second master...unfortunately it looks like it'll be the first case since that's the direction of the change, but it would be a crying shame if the only way to compete would be to have a 2-master crew. Again, seeing how this worked with Nekima in Neverborn crews, I'm inclined to believe it...

Can't wait to start the Beta testing, I guess!

[lusciousmccabe]

I'd prefer double masters to be costed for novelty rather than the opposite to be honest with you. 

I think it should be possible to make them playable but not autopicks though. Basically you'd need to make sure that for each master there's a model or combination of models that does pretty much the same thing for cheaper with the support of its own thematic master. 

So for example Hoffman should make a peacekeeper as good as Lady J for tanking and damage. That way Hoffman will only take Lady J if he needs to double down on that role but other masters might prefer LJ since she's better in a vacuum.

Alternatively you could make sure every master has actions/abilities which only work in their thematic crew. So if Lady J is less cost effective the Peacekeeper for straight damage you still might take her if your list happens to have some Marshals already.

I think where stuff will get really complicated is masters that can buff/support eachother and those with out of faction hiring that'll need to be balanced with all the other masters as well.

[Absinthe624]

Out of curiosity, since Gencon is over now, has anyone seen a Beta invite?

[Gnomezilla]

14 minutes ago, Absinthe624 said:

Out of curiosity, since Gencon is over now, has anyone seen a Beta invite?

I really would NOT expect it this week (from any participant not just Wyrd). Give them time to pack and ship GenCon orders and/or recover, let alone vet people...

 

dangit, I said I didn’t wanna beta and spoil the surprise yet now I’m talking myself into it. 🙃

[solkan]

I think most of the office staff were on a 5AM Monday flight back, Tuesday’s probably going to be the day of the living dead.  😧

[Absinthe624]

1 minute ago, solkan said:

I think most of the office staff were on a 5AM Monday flight back, Tuesday’s probably going to be the day of the living dead.  😧

 

3 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

I really would NOT expect it this week (from any participant not just Wyrd). Give them time to pack and ship GenCon orders and/or recover, let alone vet people...

 

dangit, I said I didn’t wanna beta and spoil the surprise yet now I’m talking myself into it. 🙃

I figured as much, just chomping at the bits. Want to see what it's all about and jump into testing, speculation only goes so far.

[Talthar]

8 hours ago, Absinthe624 said:

Out of curiosity, since Gencon is over now, has anyone seen a Beta invite?

I actually logged on to ask the same question, or when Beta testing will start.  I can wait until next week, but I'm chomping at the bit to get started if I make the cut.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Even once it starts, revealing you are in the beta, or a tester revealing that testing has started I’m pretty certain is enough to break your NDA, if I read it correctly. Wyrd can certainly correct me on that point.

I mention because those NDAs are legal documents, and Wyrd seems to have had an issue with leeks over the past few years or so. Remember if you signed one to keep your word to not talk about it.

Its gonna happen when it happens, and Wyrd has said they are casting a wide net. They just need to get recovered from gen con and orders. If I had to guess, next week, or more likely the week after.

[mrninja13]

Regarding thematic crews, I think it'll be inevitable that the competitive crowd will gravitate towards the best builds, so I don't think there's really a solution to "samey" crews, at least at high levels.

They might not be the faction all stars anymore, but we'll probably still see same masters using the same models across the board, with the only difference that this time they'll be thematic models, which might be more palatable from the fluff point of view at least.

Same with multiple masters (an idea which I'm still not keen about): if they are competitive, competitive players will use them, and they will mostly all use the best performance/price combo.

I haven't played first edition, but is it just me or a few of the planned changes seem to go back to things that were part of M1E and they got rid of in M2E because they were causing issues?

Things like unusual format cards, more text and abilities on the base masters cards (iirc upgrades were created to get rid of this), double masters, destructible terrain etc.

Hopefully that's not because the collective memory has forgotten that they were issues in the first place...

[Da Git]

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I mention because those NDAs are legal documents, and Wyrd seems to have had an issue with leeks over the past few years or so. Remember if you signed one to keep your word to not talk about it.

First rule of Beta Club is: Don't talk about Beta Club!

Second rule of Beta Club is" Don't talk about BETA CLUB!

Third rule of Beta Club is: DON'T TALK ABOUT BETA CLUB!!!!!!

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Da Git said:

First rule of Beta Club is: Don't talk about Beta Club!

Second rule of Beta Club is" Don't talk about BETA CLUB!

Third rule of Beta Club is: DON'T TALK ABOUT BETA CLUB!!!!!!

And the 4th rule is "READ your non disclosure agreement, where you have said you won't talk about beta club"

[MunkyMuddFace]

2 hours ago, mrninja13 said:

I haven't played first edition, but is it just me or a few of the planned changes seem to go back to things that were part of M1E and they got rid of in M2E because they were causing issues?

Things like unusual format cards, more text and abilities on the base masters cards (iirc upgrades were created to get rid of this), double masters, destructible terrain etc.

Hopefully that's not because the collective memory has forgotten that they were issues in the first place...

I also noticed this. 

Viks going back to each having the same stat cards, games going back to 8 point max instead of 10. These aren't problematic reverts, just interesting to note. With respect to VPs in a game, I think I like the lower point totals of M1.5 paired with the scheme pool generation of M2E.

[Gnomezilla]

@mrninja13 me neither, I have to go by old posts too. I figured out that fewer upgrades were meant to fix cases like Tara and her many upgrades, that destructible terrain was meant to fix the “double ice walls, better leave 130mm gaps in terrain or autolose” problem. M2E problems. Not sure what double masters are meant to fix. A sort of shrug and ‘if faction all-stars must exist, at least make them the super flashy, flavorful masters’?

 

As for the card layout, @Shadowopal said over the weekend he was stacking cards that were multiples slightly offset, so that just the strip of wounds showed for each one. Now that cuts down on necessary table size! Just add a book dart or some kind of clip on the edge to indicate activated status and done. In light of that I will stop agitating for the wound bubbles to move to the center. I would still have liked a different edge for avoiding smudging mid-game, but there IS a reason they are where they are and I’m happy.  

[mrninja13]

Well, I've got to say I do love the new card size and layout (is anyone even able to read the current rules summary card that came with the strategy deck?).

But then again I don't sleeve them and I use small dice to mark the wounds next to the models, so I only use one card per model type when I play.

[Clement]

23 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

@mrninja13 me neither, I have to go by old posts too. I figured out that fewer upgrades were meant to fix cases like Tara and her many upgrades, that destructible terrain was meant to fix the “double ice walls, better leave 130mm gaps in terrain or autolose” problem. M2E problems. Not sure what double masters are meant to fix. A sort of shrug and ‘if faction all-stars must exist, at least make them the super flashy, flavorful masters’?

In fairness, all we know at this point is destructible terrain exists.  It will depend a great deal on how they are implemented for board terrain (my suspicion is we mostly won't be knocking over houses and ripping up forests).

1st edition had a lot of interesting ideas for terrain, most of which were abandoned because they were either too random (Events) or really punishing for a certain faction/model type (indoor locations got weird).  A lot of those ideas got recycled into story encounters.

As to the whole "double masters" thing, like 80% of the fluff is multiple masters working together towards some common goal.  I'm excited that I can consider doing that on the table, assuming it can be balanced of course.  (1st edition let you do multiple masters in very large games, it was very silly and in no way balanced)

[Gnomezilla]

Pff, fluff. The fluff also says Hoffman should’ve been machine puppeting enemy constructs all over the map, and I haven’t seen that yet in two editions. Hint. Hint. 

[Clement]

10 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Pff, fluff. The fluff also says Hoffman should’ve been machine puppeting enemy constructs all over the map, and I haven’t seen that yet in two editions. Hint. Hint. 

...  Hoffman literally could machine puppet enemy constructs (with no resist flip mind you) 1st edition.  He also had an Alpha style 2 action called Override Edict that takes their activation for them.

[Gnomezilla]

16 minutes ago, Clement said:

...  Hoffman literally could machine puppet enemy constructs (with no resist flip mind you) 1st edition.  He also had an Alpha style 2 action called Override Edict that takes their activation for them.

And I MISSED this?!??!?!

*mightiest and most forceful of feminine ‘harrumphs’*

*which, unfortunately, also means it pitched upward several notes if not a full octave, spoiling the effect with a childish affect*

[edopersichetti]

Not sure if this has popped up somewhere else already, but here's an excerpt from Malifaux Musings:

All initiative can be cheated.

 

You get pass tokens based on difference in activations and it recounts each turn.

 

All models outside of the Keyword get the old merc tax penalty of +1ss.

 

Damage scaled down.

 

Engagement ranges scaled down.

 

Charges are 1 AP Walks plus a single attack. No more than 1 charge a turn, barring special rules like Cojo.

 

First Master hire is free, others pay the cost. Totems are free with their Master. No generic totems.

 

Each faction gets Versatile models, like the Effigy, Emissary and Riders, which don’t pay the tax with any Master.

 

              Peons are no longer a thing. All non minions are rare 1 unless specified otherwise

What do people think?

I'm actually in favor of most of those, even though there is a concern for watering-down that keeps creeping up...simplification is nice, over-simplification not so much. No more different charge ranges, no more stat for attacks, no more AP, weakened red joker, now no more peons...there's actually quite a few more that don't come to mind now, but all together, it looks like we're losing quite a bit of depth.

The new charge is interesting, even though it is strange that there isn't at least a +2 to the Mv or something like this. But basically if you use both AP - pardon, actions - you get a movement and two attacks like the old one...or you could walk and then charge for very long threat range, but only 1 attack. So it's an interesting tradeoff.

The reduction in engagement range means it's going to be harder to get engaged - I'll miss the 3" of some of the models, they provided huge table control! I'm a bit concerned about shooty crews being too powerful, especially since cover seems to have also gone down in efficacy - the  modifier made sure that hitting in cover was almost impossible, now a mere +2 Df won't do much at all...

Damage scaled down: not sure what to think. Games will last longer if no models die

Pass tokens: completely cancel the advantage of out-activation? Man, that's harsh. You lose entirely one aspect of the game - again, we're losing some depth here. Some crews really relied on that to work.

Cheating initiative: again it looks like an attempt to make Malifaux more "democratic" and less depending on fate. 

In fact, now that I think about it, this seems to emerge as a recurring theme...both players have same number of activations (with pass tokens), both can cheat initiative, same amount of "cache" (0), red joker is watered down, etc. So less "bad things happen", and more chess? Mmmm. I kinda like the randomness aspect. I understand it can be frustrating at times, especially for beginners (and maybe that's why the change) but too predictable and too many "equal opportunities" becomes less spicy. I might be wrong, but that's my feeling.

Overall, I thought M3E was going to be a minor rework with a few changes in selected aspects that needed fine-tuning, but it looks more and more like a major overhaul, and I think it'll be a very different game experience. Looking forward to the Beta, and hopefully some or most of these changes are still work-in-progress!

Your thoughts folks?

[Ryin]

Definitely interested in it. I’m someone that felt a new edition had become necessary. 

Just a few points. 

+2 Def is better than Especially considering that Focus had become ubiquitous to the point that  we’re almost irrelevant as well as the addition of new mechanics and themes. Sure, you can cheat if you HAVE to hit a model, but you might be using a 12 or 13 if your model is injured. This edition also seems to have much more focus on hand control over activation control, and so you might not HAVE that card even if you need it. 

Speaking of, they already teased that some crews will chew up pass tokens for abilities or be able to manipulate them in other ways, so it’s definitely still a factor. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not sure howntotems are working and ive heard multiple things about them. All totems are free with their master, even if they aren’t the leader? Not sure if I like that since it just seems to encourage a many master list. Prefer if the totem for your leader was free, and if you want to hire a master and your totem you need to pay for both.

I like most of the changes, but I really don’t want to go back to 1e where is was all about the best and most expensive models for most crews and doing objectives was something they did after they finished tearing apart and breaking the ability of the opponent to actually do anything. 

[mrninja13]

Well, i really like the change to the charge, it does introduce a nice tactical decision element.

I'm not against pass tokens either, especially against summoners, when if you didn't stop the engine early they would out activate everyone and have free rein with their beaters.

I'm still a bit ambivalent regarding the other changes, sometimes things are complicated just for the sake of complexity and in practice there won't be much lost by streamlining, but it will be a balancing act to get right.

It's true, however, that there are a LOT of moving parts in m2e that need to be  learnt and taken into account when playing that go beyond stat card complexity: your crew abilities, the opponent's, your hand and discards, your opponent's, your schemes and strategies, trying to guess the opponent's etc. In a way they are what makes malifaux rich, but it's a lot for beginners to process

[DeleteAccount]

Not too keen on pass tokens being usable without cost. Though thing to note, if a model gets summoned it technically won't give a token to the opponent so outactivation can happen like that.

Also echoing Fetid's desire to know how the totem with secondary masters work, have also heard conflucting information on that.

[lusciousmccabe]

1 hour ago, edopersichetti said:

I'm actually in favor of most of those, even though there is a concern for watering-down that keeps creeping up...simplification is nice, over-simplification not so much. No more different charge ranges, no more stat for attacks, no more AP, weakened red joker, now no more peons...there's actually quite a few more that don't come to mind now, but all together, it looks like we're losing quite a bit of depth.

I'm all in favour of simplification in terms of stream-lining, but not if it's to the point where your choices start to matter less. Charge is still interesting for the reasons you've mentioned, attack stats were fiddly and largely pointless, AP is only gone in name, weaker red joker does make holding it less of an important choice and peons were a bit of a stub and had that annoying overlap with insignificant that meant one of them was close to redundant. It's kind of hard to say where we are in terms of simplification at this stage because adding in double masters probably does more to complicate the game than any single other thing they could have done. 

Also, generally think some simplification in terms of core rules is pretty necessary if Wyrd want to keep making things more complicated via new releases. 

[daniello_s]

1 hour ago, edopersichetti said:

Not sure if this has popped up somewhere else already, but here's an excerpt from Malifaux Musings:

All initiative can be cheated. - I don't like this one. It should be a flip and potential re-flip at the cost  of SS so as usual

 

You get pass tokens based on difference in activations and it recounts each turn. - Again not big fan of this solution. IMO favors tough and hard hitting elite crews too much

 

All models outside of the Keyword get the old merc tax penalty of +1ss. - I'm fine with that

 

Damage scaled down. - Might be ok but it depends how much it would be scaled down

 

Engagement ranges scaled down. - again i'm not big fan of that. Engagement gave you some tactical possibilities but now... again depends how much it will be scaled down

 

Charges are 1 AP Walks plus a single attack. No more than 1 charge a turn, barring special rules like Cojo. - I'm ok with that.

 

First Master hire is free, others pay the cost. Totems are free with their Master. No generic totems. - not big fan of this idea about getting additional masters... It is asking the problems and i'm nearly sure will be a reason for some sort of balance issue 

 

Each faction gets Versatile models, like the Effigy, Emissary and Riders, which don’t pay the tax with any Master. - i'm ok with that.

 

  Peons are no longer a thing. All non minions are rare 1 unless specified otherwise - not sure about this rare 1 cap for non-minion models but worth of testing.

 

As edopersichetti said it looks like many things will be watered down and simplified. It is big gesture for the new players but old ones will feel like they were robbed of something...