Third Edition is Coming!!

[Chucklemonkey2]

Excited enough by the prospect of 3rd edition that I'm looking to jump back into the game after sitting out most of 2nd. Whilst their will always be naysayers change is often good and the game certainly seemed to go from strength to strength during 2nd edition. Excited to have an excuse to use a couple of unused crews and possibly pick up a few more. Happy gaming all!

[SunTsu]

On 7/26/2018 at 1:56 PM, Sandmann said:

Or, they just could keep the old card size and spare everyone the hassle 🙂

I think that if they decided about a cards size change there should be a reason... Or not?

I remember several discussions in which Devs declared the difficult often they had to fit the text onto some cards. I guess the increasing in size is to fix that problem, so that on normal cards you will have a bigger picture (in order to satisfying aesthetic), me having enough space to crop the pic and add more text when needed by some more complicated rules...

Strictly linked to this discussion is the app, that I think it's the future. About this Mason, I'd like to say that you have absolutely to fix some app issue, first of all the usability ones. I'm referring in particular to the fact you're not able to see the cards text at once on the screen (this is incredibly annoying and is the main reason why many people don't like use it), and some others "minor" problems (such as, while you're composing a crew for an encounter, you cannot read the text of strategy and schemes...).

[FlippingWeak]

Really excited by this... one of the things that put me off was that there were lots of masters who always did have the same models.... and they were not thematic... just the ones you had to have to win tournaments. I like the story deciding what happens... otherwise the story becomes pointless and not related to what is happening. You can only be upset wtih story driving the game if you want the bent and broken crews that are 'mathed' . Malifaux IS thematic - therefore it makes sense that the crews within it would be.

I welcome the simplification of the conditions and actions - I did not tournament though and as a casual player maybe I dont have much say in the effects it has there but I will enjoy it as a casual player. Faster games with less confusion is bringing me right back in.

On the Flip side ;-) I do own Lynch (as my only master) and am not interested in playing Thunders (no snubs just not my theme) buuuuuuut - I will see new models and buy a new crew anyway so I dont find much to complain about other than I will be slightly poorer once something is purchasable. First world problems.

[phloog]

On 7/31/2018 at 5:16 AM, WWHSD said:

As far as the information we’ve been given,  only Collodi and his totem are going into the DMH. If Collodi is your only master, you probably aren’t playing in tournaments so Collodi being a DMH model is irrelevant.

So....is Malifaux a game with a low cost of entry or not?  As I sold my friends on this game,  that was always the point...many of them are now older, married, kids, and way too many miniatures from GW ...NO interest in getting back into big collections.

If only choosing one master and associated models is an option and you're in, then Malifaux has a real appeal.

If choosing one master is going to open you up to DMH-ing, which almost CERTAINLY will result in less support for small incremental adds (new puppets), less ability to participate, then I can't tell people it's low cost of entry without a huge disclaimer.

[Adran]

Just now, phloog said:

So....is Malifaux a game with a low cost of entry or not?  As I sold my friends on this game,  that was always the point...many of them are now older, married, kids, and way too many miniatures from GW ...NO interest in getting back into big collections.

If only choosing one master and associated models is an option and you're in, then Malifaux has a real appeal.

If choosing one master is going to open you up to DMH-ing, which almost CERTAINLY will result in less support for small incremental adds (new puppets), less ability to participate, then I can't tell people it's low cost of entry without a huge disclaimer.

I would say yes it is low cost entry. Currently you can field a crew with a few thematic options for under $100. I doubt this is changing. 

If you are doing this, then a lot of the time you aren't going to be affected by DMH. You are probably only playing casually, which is certainly still supported. 

Yes you may not get any updates to your crew, but that doesn't make it cost more, because you have no new purchases.  I don't expect any of the current DMH masters to have crews with NO overlap with another master, so you could slowly look to buying a new master box which is only equivalent to 2 or 3 small purchases.  

If you play mainly at big events and only own 1 master, then DMH may hurt it being low cost, but the cost changes of an edition change probably still aren't that high. 

[amanwing]

How about the mission system? Will it be simpler? It is the hardest part to teach to other players and sometimes new players lose because they understood the mission goals wrong.

[hYena]

After thinking about it for awhile, with the proposed increase in mobility, are shooting attacks going to be compensated?

Actions/attacks with a gun icon are already some of the most restricted in the game, and increasing mobilty, without balancing shooting out, will probably have a big negative effect on any/all models that use/rely on those types of actions/attacks. And in most cases it's already better to avoid models that rely on the gun icon as is.

 

I just can't get passed the proposed mobility increase. Its the one thing i can't seem to stop finding an overall problem with.

[Squirrelich]

1 hour ago, hYena said:

After thinking about it for awhile, with the proposed increase in mobility, are shooting attacks going to be compensated?

Actions/attacks with a gun icon are already some of the most restricted in the game, and increasing mobilty, without balancing shooting out, will probably have a big negative effect on any/all models that use/rely on those types of actions/attacks. And in most cases it's already better to avoid models that rely on the gun icon as is.

 

I just can't get passed the proposed mobility increase. Its the one thing i can't seem to stop finding an overall problem with.

I agree that the comment on mobility and "get right into the action" raised some flags for me, but it is so vague and there is so much unknown right now that I need more info before raising alarm. 

[Gnomezilla]

1 hour ago, hYena said:

After thinking about it for awhile, with the proposed increase in mobility, are shooting attacks going to be compensated?

Actions/attacks with a gun icon are already some of the most restricted in the game, and increasing mobilty, without balancing shooting out, will probably have a big negative effect on any/all models that use/rely on those types of actions/attacks. And in most cases it's already better to avoid models that rely on the gun icon as is.

 

I just can't get passed the proposed mobility increase. Its the one thing i can't seem to stop finding an overall problem with.

I don’t know. On the one hand, I will be happy if turn one stops being the positioning turn (even though that will hurt the kinds of buffing masters I like to play). On the other hand, you’re right, gun-icon attacks are terrible now and won’t get better if gunners get engaged turn one. Maybe engagement won’t stop gunners from firing any more? Maybe every gunner comes with a ‘get out of engagement’ action, no exceptions? Maybe casts will have to play by the long-range rules too so it’s not just gunners who are automatically worse than casters? Actually that one better not be a ‘maybe’. Casts have got to get downgraded to be on par with guns.

[yool1981]

5 hours ago, Adran said:

I would say yes it is low cost entry. Currently you can field a crew with a few thematic options for under $100. I doubt this is changing. 

If you are doing this, then a lot of the time you aren't going to be affected by DMH. You are probably only playing casually, which is certainly still supported. 

Yes you may not get any updates to your crew, but that doesn't make it cost more, because you have no new purchases.  I don't expect any of the current DMH masters to have crews with NO overlap with another master, so you could slowly look to buying a new master box which is only equivalent to 2 or 3 small purchases.  

If you play mainly at big events and only own 1 master, then DMH may hurt it being low cost, but the cost changes of an edition change probably still aren't that high. 

I respectfully disagree.

I consider having "entered" Malifaux when:

• I can play at the intended balance format (50SS)
• I can play all the strats and schemes with my collections without feeling at a disadvantage due to a lack of options
• I can handle the most annoying skews for a beginner (summoners & blasters)

Prior to that, I consider it is a try out, not an entry.

To do so, in the collection I need:

• Scheme runners
• Turf holders & Control options
• Beaters
• Snipers and/or Blasters
• Support pieces (condition removal & protections like cover generation for example) & enablers (depending on the crew)

So, depending on the master you choose initially (who may not be an all-rounder), you may end up spending money on an additional crewbox and several additional purchases. I'd say the real cost of entry is more 200-400 USD depending on your exact choices.

For example, in M2E my initial 2014-2016 NB collection was Jakob Lynch crew + Graves & Tannen + Beckoner + Depleted + Lilith crew + Lazarus + Doppleganger + Johan + Pukeworm. I was able to play a lot of strats & schemes from the book and GG2016 against a fine variety of opponents.

BTW, You will note how much I would have gotten disappointed as a new player if I had just made these purchases right before M3E came out...

[WWHSD]

16 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

I respectfully disagree.

I consider having "entered" Malifaux when:

...

Prior to that, I consider it is a try out, not an entry.

I believe in the context that the question was asked your “try out” is what is meant by “entry”. 

For just throwing down some models for some beer and pretzels fun with other people that are making a similar investment it’s completely reasonable to expect to spend about $100 to get to that point and DMH doesn’t really even matter.

Two crew boxes and a couple of supporting models comes right in around $100 (especially if you aren’t paying MSRP) and makes a good entry point for someone getting into Malifaux to play with their friends. There are definitely exceptions to this (mostly summoners).

[LunarSol]

6 hours ago, phloog said:

So....is Malifaux a game with a low cost of entry or not?  As I sold my friends on this game,  that was always the point...many of them are now older, married, kids, and way too many miniatures from GW ...NO interest in getting back into big collections.

If only choosing one master and associated models is an option and you're in, then Malifaux has a real appeal.

If choosing one master is going to open you up to DMH-ing, which almost CERTAINLY will result in less support for small incremental adds (new puppets), less ability to participate, then I can't tell people it's low cost of entry without a huge disclaimer.

I think siloing masters around their thematic crews will make it a significantly lower cost of entry game than it is currently.  Right now the competitive crews really rely on cherry picking single models from several box sets and you kind of wind up with this sprawling pile of models the game just doesn't have design space for to get the "just 8" you need.  Being able to pick a master and have better bounds of what works with them makes it significantly easier to play the game with less initial buy in and still play that master to the full effect.

[LunarSol]

57 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

I don’t know. On the one hand, I will be happy if turn one stops being the positioning turn (even though that will hurt the kinds of buffing masters I like to play). On the other hand, you’re right, gun-icon attacks are terrible now and won’t get better if gunners get engaged turn one. Maybe engagement won’t stop gunners from firing any more? Maybe every gunner comes with a ‘get out of engagement’ action, no exceptions? Maybe casts will have to play by the long-range rules too so it’s not just gunners who are automatically worse than casters? Actually that one better not be a ‘maybe’. Casts have got to get downgraded to be on par with guns.

It really, really depends on a lot of things, but overall I think the idea is to try to cut back on the "red rover" activation control shenanigans of the current first turn.  That can certainly be possible if we can simulate starting the game on the second turn, but doing so is going to be tricky.  As for guns, we'll have to wait and see, though its important to remember that you always have the option of deploying further back and that might just be what they need to do.

[Fetid Strumpet]

They could always go the Relic knights version and remove ranges from ranged attacks, guns, and spells. LoS is the only effective counter in that game. Granted if they went that route they’d need to have better rules clearly defining how a table is laid out. Relic Knights gets around it be having 2 movements and 1 action, so all models can run out of cover, act, and get back in cover. Unless they are fundamentally changing the action economy that wouldn’t work for malifaux.

[Artiee]

1 hour ago, yool1981 said:

I respectfully disagree.

I consider having "entered" Malifaux when:

• I can play at the intended balance format (50SS)
• I can play all the strats and schemes with my collections without feeling at a disadvantage due to a lack of options
• I can handle the most annoying skews for a beginner (summoners & blasters)

Prior to that, I consider it is a try out, not an entry.

To do so, in the collection I need:

• Scheme runners
• Turf holders & Control options
• Beaters
• Snipers and/or Blasters
• Support pieces (condition removal & protections like cover generation for example) & enablers (depending on the crew)

So, depending on the master you choose initially (who may not be an all-rounder), you may end up spending money on an additional crewbox and several additional purchases. I'd say the real cost of entry is more 200-400 USD depending on your exact choices.

For example, in M2E my initial 2014-2016 NB collection was Jakob Lynch crew + Graves & Tannen + Beckoner + Depleted + Lilith crew + Lazarus + Doppleganger + Johan + Pukeworm. I was able to play a lot of strats & schemes from the book and GG2016 against a fine variety of opponents.

BTW, You will note how much I would have gotten disappointed as a new player if I had just made these purchases right before M3E came out...

Entry cost and competitive cost are 2 different things.  I see Entry cost is usually how much to start playing at the normal game level.     Faux :Normal games are 50ss.  A crew box and a few extra models will get you that around $100.  That will get you enough to play.   If you look at the other game systems.   40k Normal games are between 1800 to 2000 pts.  That is about $800.  

[LunarSol]

Nah.  Part of the reason its okay for Relic Knights is that most everything has some ranged ability because that makes sense in the setting.  Malifaux is not that game.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, yool1981 said:

I respectfully disagree.

I consider having "entered" Malifaux when:

• I can play at the intended balance format (50SS)
• I can play all the strats and schemes with my collections without feeling at a disadvantage due to a lack of options
• I can handle the most annoying skews for a beginner (summoners & blasters)

 

Fair enough, I would have said your "entry to never born" was actually more serious tournament level. But that's just semantic.

I agree on your first two requirements but disagree on the last point, just because when you build your crew you don't know you're facing a blaster or summoning.

I think you only needed half your list to be competitive for all strategies and schemes, but you might feel disadvantaged at times. But that's my personal view and I can see others disagreeing, but probably on their definition of competitive. 

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, LunarSol said:

I think siloing masters around their thematic crews will make it a significantly lower cost of entry game than it is currently.  Right now the competitive crews really rely on cherry picking single models from several box sets and you kind of wind up with this sprawling pile of models the game just doesn't have design space for to get the "just 8" you need.  Being able to pick a master and have better bounds of what works with them makes it significantly easier to play the game with less initial buy in and still play that master to the full effect.

It may reduce the cost of entry for an initial crew but it has the potential to be more costly to expand into new masters.

For example,  an M2E Resser player that has Nercropunks has a cheap mobile scheme runner that works with any Resser masters they decide to add to their collection. Depending on what ends up with the Versatile keyword and what exactly the penalty for hiring models from your faction with no matching keywords is  an M3E Resser player may potentially need a Necropunk equivalent for each of their masters resulting in owning 8 models to fill the role that was filled by one model in M2E.

[LunarSol]

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

It may reduce the cost of entry for an initial crew but it has the potential to be more costly to expand into new masters.

For example,  an M2E Resser player that has Nercropunks has a cheap mobile scheme runner that works with any Resser masters they decide to add to their collection. Depending on what ends up with the Versatile keyword and what exactly the penalty for hiring models from your faction with no matching keywords is  an M3E Resser player may potentially need a Necropunk equivalent for each of their masters resulting in owning 8 models to fill the role that was filled by one model in M2E.

Sure, but that stuff tends to come in the crew box as is.  Honestly, if there's a reason to take 2 of something in M3E, I think its a pretty decent improvement in buy in cost.

[Malovane]

2 hours ago, yool1981 said:

I respectfully disagree.

I consider having "entered" Malifaux when:

• I can play at the intended balance format (50SS)
• I can play all the strats and schemes with my collections without feeling at a disadvantage due to a lack of options
• I can handle the most annoying skews for a beginner (summoners & blasters)

Prior to that, I consider it is a try out, not an entry.

The second you start talking about not being at a disadvantage, you are fundamentally talking about the cost to be competitive.  Getting into the very concept of skews goes even further, requiring some r&d to even determine what are the common skews and how to tech against them.  You have absolutely gone well beyond the point of entry.  Even the act of learning what models fit what roles is something that comes with experience or research, which again falls beyond the idea of "getting started" with Malifaux.  The entry point to malifaux can absolutely be crew box vs crew box.  It won't be the most balanced experience in all cases, but its enough to get a taste for the rules and systems of the game.

[WWHSD]

23 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

Sure, but that stuff tends to come in the crew box as is.  Honestly, if there's a reason to take 2 of something in M3E, I think its a pretty decent improvement in buy in cost.

Some of the crew boxes do, but a lot are missing some core roles.  My Ironsides box didn't come with any scheme runners and the Kaeris box doesn't really come with any beaters.

[LunarSol]

So you need to buy +1 beater for your Kaeris box or +1 box of scheme runners for Ironsides.  Either way, its less buy in for a master than needing to buy another crew box for what you need.  There's of course the perfect world where Perdita+Sonnia gives you everything you need, but on the whole that's not been my M2E experience.

[yool1981]

28 minutes ago, Malovane said:

The second you start talking about not being at a disadvantage, you are fundamentally talking about the cost to be competitive.  Getting into the very concept of skews goes even further, requiring some r&d to even determine what are the common skews and how to tech against them.  You have absolutely gone well beyond the point of entry.  Even the act of learning what models fit what roles is something that comes with experience or research, which again falls beyond the idea of "getting started" with Malifaux.  The entry point to malifaux can absolutely be crew box vs crew box.  It won't be the most balanced experience in all cases, but its enough to get a taste for the rules and systems of the game.

My gaming group featured Nicodem, Marcus, Sonnia and pre nerf Levi at the very beginning.

For a beginner, blasters and summoners are imho the worst to handle.

Even in causual environnment you do not want to get steamrolled.

Being in a causal environment does not mean that people don’t try to balance their games.

Hence my meaning about not being at a disadvantage.

But I agree some people may have a different perception of the entry to a game.

[WWHSD]

35 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

So you need to buy +1 beater for your Kaeris box or +1 box of scheme runners for Ironsides.  Either way, its less buy in for a master than needing to buy another crew box for what you need.  There's of course the perfect world where Perdita+Sonnia gives you everything you need, but on the whole that's not been my M2E experience.

My concern isn't about the initial buy in, but that every time a new master is added you essentially have the same cost as you did with your first master.  In M2E, I'd use the beaters from the Ironside box to fill the hole in the Kaeris crew and the scheme runners from the Kaeris box to fill the hole in the Ironsides crew. I'd have two masters that I could play with just the contents of those two crew boxes. Additional purchases might be intended to optimize one crew or the other but become options for both crews. The addition of another master's crew box  doesn't have a lot of required purchases with it because you already own models that fill any roles that the new crew needs filled. Personally, I found that buying a crew box was usually the most cost effective way to expand.

I don't think the sky is falling and I do  like the idea that crews aren't just going to be whatever master was chosen with the whatever the best model for each role in the faction. There is a downside though to masters hiring mostly models with their keywords. Hopefully, there will be enough models with the Versatile keyword that can fill some basic roles, the hiring penalty won't be too prohibitive, or there will be enough models that have multiple keywords to keep it from becoming an issue. 

[LunarSol]

On the plus side, it also means that if a new release isn't part of your preferred keyword it won't completely replace your existing crew as changes in M2E have been wont to do.