Third Edition is Coming!!

[anab0lic]

Surely it should be the other way round... All masters are legal unless the TO wants to run a narrative event... and you know what?  I don't think many would show up to such an event which would be quite telling as to how many are in this hobby for the story and how many value game play above all else.   I love a good story as much as anyone, but its absolutely not what I come to war gaming for and for the gameplay/peoples investments to suffer to appease the lore lovers (which in my experience is the minority in this hobby) is just a terrible decision.  This could potentially lead to dividing the community too, when you have certain events where all masters are legal and others where its not.   Somehow I get the feeling that the real decision behind this move is to sell more models without creating too much bloat though..... 

The whole theme forces thing has me concerned, its what Warmachine did with 3rd edition... and the game now is basically (last time I checked) theme vs theme as alternative lists just don't offer you the same bonuses and a lot of people have left the game as a result of this.   A big part of war gaming for many is thinking about the game when you are not playing it.... the whole list building aspect, the theory crafting, developing combos, understanding you enemy etc... I mean sure when the models hit the table there's still plenty of tactical play at work regardless which we all enjoy, but by removing alot the pre game strategy you are diluting the game as a whole.   There something incredibly satisfying about brewing up some unique list/combos in your 'laboratory' and turning up to a game/event with it and nobody's prepared for it, its true for any wargame... it can even be be quite enjoyable being on the reviving end of that and then you go away thinking about how do I counter that.   I don't want the game to devolve into am I taking theme A, B or C.   Sure maybe things have gotten to the point where its the same lists a lot of the time now, but that's what new editions and updates should address, make things that are not picked better alternatives, add new models that shake up the meta etc....  Again though, I feel like this is just another business decision that a) brings more new players into the game as the what do i buy next question is quite common and b) allows for big shiny themed boxes sitting on retail shelf's (fully expecting to see this soon.)

I Agree about what was said earlier in the thread about the two master in one crew thing being awful... Just horrible thematically, I really don't want to see that on the table even if it can be balanced well.

I'm glad 3E is still a ways off and they still have time to take a lot of these criticisms and concerns into consideration....

[Stonewall78]

8 hours ago, Mason said:

There are!

Item one on the checklist, that was.

Hard sleeves or just soft? I know some people that like hard sleeves. I have no problems with size change other then the money I spent on all the sleeves (for tons of cards) but both options would be nice. They are likely going to take up more table space too which might suck. It may drive more to use the app which may not be so bad.

I hope avatars will still be official emissary proxies as I have a couple I still love to use.
Will old nightmare boxes still get the new options. I have the old dead justice crew I would still like to use as resser models. I also have the McCabe nightmare box and with him going Outcast only I wouldn't be able to use him with the guild guard. Maybe have him become an alt for Cornelius Basse? Hell even make it so he can be used as McCabe still so then I will be forced to buy more outcast models. The more options you give people the more factions they will expand out too in the future.

I can't think of too many other nightmare crews that are dual faction though. I think the more thought that is put into all the alt models and old models that are put out will really keep all the old time players in the game as they won't feel like their collections are no longer valued. May take a small list as counts as models but I know 1st to 2nd had the same issue.

[Blastaar]

I certainly hope that rendition of the stat cards is changed: the artwork has no business taking up 2/3s of it, the formatting is off, and the actual rules parts are a little difficult to read. As a game aid it's a failure. Keep the current version it does its job well- don't mess with it just to appeal to people who value style over substance. Gameplay first.

[EK A&G]

3 hours ago, Mason said:

We went through the model lists and divided things up in ways that made sense and would give each keyword enough models to flesh out their options.

 

I can't really speak to this at the moment, as we want to save some surprises for GenCon. 

However, I will note that we do have a plan in place with regards to further expansion.

 

We're keeping it in mind, but game balance and fun are the most important things atm.

Hello good sir, you have not answered if Dual Faction masters like Misaki, Brewmaster and others will be able to be played as dual faction masters.

[emiba]

7 minutes ago, EK A&G said:

Hello good sir, you have not answered if Dual Faction masters like Misaki, Brewmaster and others will be able to be played as dual faction masters.

That's because that information is available on the website. Misaki is thunders only and brewmaster is Bayou (gremlins) only.

[Kyris]

10 minutes ago, EK A&G said:

Hello good sir, you have not answered if Dual Faction masters like Misaki, Brewmaster and others will be able to be played as dual faction masters.

A lot of masters have lost their dual-factions.

 

Lynch and misaki are now 10T only. Brewmaster is now bayou only. McMourning is resser only. etc.

[EK A&G]

2 minutes ago, emiba said:

That's because that information is available on the website. Misaki is thunders only and brewmaster is Bayou (gremlins) only.

I have asked before in this thread if IN FUTURE (like with Dead Man's Hand) they will be usable as they used to be.

1 minute ago, Kyris said:

A lot of masters have lost their dual-factions.

 

Lynch and misaki are now 10T only. Brewmaster is now bayou only. McMourning is resser only. etc.

Yeah, and i asked if that change will be reversed in time.

[Kyris]

1 minute ago, EK A&G said:

I have asked before in this thread if IN FUTURE (like with Dead Man's Hand) they will be usable as they used to be.

Yeah, and i asked if that change will be reversed in time.

if they currently had plans for that, it would've been announced by now; they're doing everything they can to quill people's anger about the changes in the new edition. So, they wont tell you no outright, but 10 to 1 odds the answer is "there are currently no plans to allow that"

[wobbly_goggy]

A lot of people are worried about losing their favourite Master, which is understandable. But, as I think has been pointed out, when waiting for Book 2 of M2E, many of us had a ton of minis we couldn't use at all. I expect you'd counter this by saying 'yeah but our models are out of the game!' - but they're getting rules.

The Masters who have disappeared are getting rules. And they will be as balanced as the continuing masters.

This has been stated very clearly by Mason/admin people. 

So what's the issue? 

Your Master isn't tournament legal... how many of you are honestly, regularly going to large, strict tournaments?

Proxies and unpainted models have not been tournament legal in M2E, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

In any sort of community event the Henchman/TO decides. And presumably you'll know them. Maybe it's your friend. And I am pretty sure they will say 'dead' Masters are OK to play. Because they are gamers too, because they want their events to be fun, because they want everyone to enjoy the game. 
I am a Henchman, and I will for sure be allowing 'dead' masters, as we have a bunch of them in my community (which is small). But I also allow unpainted minis, and when people forget to pack a particular toy, I have allowed proxies(as we make it clear to everyone what it is). Because I am not a monster, I am a person, playing with people. 
I therefore suggest to everyone who has worries about not being able to use Lilith/Nico/Ramos etc that you check in with your local Henchman/gaming store and see what their stance is/will be on you using them at their events. 

Going forward, your master may not be in M4E! But that could be in another 6 years. Or maybe they'll be back. 
Perhaps there'll be a new Global Campaign in which you can win the release (in story and in a physical sense) of one of the 'dead' masters. Perhaps that would motivate people to play the campaign? 

And in 6 or so years, who can honestly say they won't have expanded their collection and so will miss a master if they really are gone forever (in 6 years time, after playing them with dead rules and using other masters in the intervening period)?

(I appreciate people may have non-master models out of faction now, which may end up being utterly useless) but we don't know the combinations/key words which will be available so it doesn't mean you won't be able to use them in thematic crews.)

 

[Kyris]

2 minutes ago, wobbly_goggy said:

A lot of people are worried about losing their favourite Master, which is understandable. But, as I think has been pointed out, when waiting for Book 2 of M2E, many of us had a ton of minis we couldn't use at all. I expect you'd counter this by saying 'yeah but our models are out of the game!' - but they're getting rules.

The Masters who have disappeared are getting rules. And they will be as balanced as the continuing masters.

This has been stated very clearly by Mason/admin people. 

In the change from 1.5 to 2E, we knew those masters were coming, though. sure, the wait was long. But no one was told "you can't use this master anymore." like we all now. it's a poor comparison.

2 minutes ago, wobbly_goggy said:

So what's the issue? 

Your Master isn't tournament legal... how many of you are honestly, regularly going to large, strict tournaments?

Doesn't matter. Still invalidating player choices.

2 minutes ago, wobbly_goggy said:

Proxies and unpainted models have not been tournament legal in M2E, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

In any sort of community event the Henchman/TO decides. And presumably you'll know them. Maybe it's your friend. And I am pretty sure they will say 'dead' Masters are OK to play. Because they are gamers too, because they want their events to be fun, because they want everyone to enjoy the game. 

But, they won't be legal for anything "wyrd official". That means for anyone strictly competitive, or who's trying to get strictly competitive, they're gone. they're useless. Why would you bother learning, and practicing those masters if you know you won't be able to use them in your end goal?

2 minutes ago, wobbly_goggy said:

Going forward, your master may not be in M4E! But that could be in another 6 years. Or maybe they'll be back. 

Yeah, see, and thats not the mentality a company should breed. "We can do whatever the fuck we want! don't get too attached to your masters! we might decide they're not useful in the next edition!". Thats not how you foster a loyal fanbase; thats how you ruin your player bases goodwill.

2 minutes ago, wobbly_goggy said:

Perhaps there'll be a new Global Campaign in which you can win the release (in story and in a physical sense) of one of the 'dead' masters. Perhaps that would motivate people to play the campaign? 

And in 6 or so years, who can honestly say they won't have expanded their collection and so will miss a master if they really are gone forever (in 6 years time, after playing them with dead rules and using other masters in the intervening period)?

whole lot of speculation being used to justify something that a lot of people think is a bad design philosophy.

Sure. Maybe it happens. Maybe I win the lottery tomorrow, doesn't mean I should quit my job tonight.

 

[LulleK]

What. This is bullshit. As a Neverborn player who plays mainly Lilith, Collodi, Lynch and Pandora, I am now stuck with Pandora if I want to play tournaments. And when I play I usually play with people who want to practice for tournaments. I also have one Arcanist crew painted for variation, and that is Ramos. I have spent HOURS painting these crews.

I have had a break from playing Malifaux, and now I guess I will never go back to playing this game.

[Davie]

So... I was a stong advocat for "please let Malifaux stay in 2nd Edition for ever!" over the past year. I have issues with changes, especially when they regard a Thing I have a certain Passion and love for.

So in the first hour after the announcement of 3rd Edition Malifaux I was pretty seceptical. Flashbacks of how GW treated Warhammer Fantasy came to my mind.

However I read through the whole thing like 10 times and it is starting to grow on me.

Wyrd is very open about it nad seem to encourage active participation of the Player base via the closed Beta-Testing. This gives me hope.

 

Yes, words like "streamlining" trigger most of us and I (Gremlins Player) have not lost any Master (although I am not sure if the lost masters are really lost because Dead Mans Hand. I am curious to find out how this works) but I have faith in Wyrd.

 

Let's stay positive and let's participate

[wobbly_goggy]

21 minutes ago, Kyris said:

 

But, they won't be legal for anything "wyrd official". That means for anyone strictly competitive, or who's trying to get strictly competitive, they're gone. they're useless. Why would you bother learning, and practicing those masters if you know you won't be able to use them in your end goal?

 

 

Anyone strictly competitive will have enough minis that it's less of an issue.

Also you can't please all the people all the time. The strictly competitive is a small percentage. Keeping more people mote interested is more important. 

Side note - strictlycompetitive Nico was frankly horrible to play against.  The main purpose of a game is for both people to enjoy it.

There are plenty more masters to chose from. Far more than have gone. So you can use the dead ones for fun, non dead ones for competition. Don't bother learning them for competitive play...and that's that

[Sandmann]

Cautiously excited for this. I loose Guild McMourning (well Dufresne really), but oh well.

But I'm really not liking the new format for stat cards. Cards take up a lot of place on the table already, and with the slightly reduced stats and streamlined abilities and triggers etc. I don't see why the new cards need to be bigger. The artwork is mostly unnecessary, unless you have multiples of a model in a crew and they have distinct artwork (so not like Guild Hounds e.g., who have only two images cropped and mirrorer (I think) on four cards) to tell them apart at a glance. And even that works with the smaller art on the old format. So, not looking forward to having to buy new sleeves, Deckboxes etc for no reason I can discern 😞

[AverageBoss]

I was around for the change from 1E to 2E. And just like then (and like every edition change for every game ever), we are going to be gaining and losing lots of people. There will be people praising it, and those condemning it as a complete failure, without even playing a single game.

Its going to be some interesting and turbulent times. But once the dust clears, I am looking forward to continue playing games with my friends, as always.

[Passenty]

5 hours ago, Rufess said:

As a programmer I see the "Dead Man's Master is not allowed in tournament" is just a default value in case. In the programming if you would like to use a variable but forgot to set a value before, then this will be some error occurs.

In the Malifaux case it would be like a henchman has organized a tournament but forgotten to announce if the "Dead Man's Master" is allowed or not. Then some players may just take their dead master while others did not expect that they will seeing those masters. So what Wyrd has done is just set a default value here to prevent some henchman forgot to set value. 

The problem is not setting some kind of value. The problem is you need to play 20+ 2h hours games to master a crew and who will do it when they might not play it. I think dead man was announced really poorly. Its an important issue and you have one paragragh about it - Wyrd should write clearly whether they will be legal and supported.

[Kyris]

16 minutes ago, wobbly_goggy said:

Anyone strictly competitive will have enough minis that it's less of an issue.

Also you can't please all the people all the time. The strictly competitive is a small percentage. Keeping more people mote interested is more important. 

and how is proving to players that their purchases can be invalidated in future releases, that their favorite masters will suddenly just be gone, serve that goal?

In what way is taking things away from players a way to increase interest? and not just going to make people weary about buying into the game because "Well, I don't want them to just get rid of my favorite masters. or take them away from my faction"?

16 minutes ago, wobbly_goggy said:

Side note - strictlycompetitive Nico was frankly horrible to play against.  The main purpose of a game is for both people to enjoy it.

which is something that can be fixed by balancing. not nuking him from orbit.

16 minutes ago, wobbly_goggy said:

There are plenty more masters to chose from. Far more than have gone. So you can use the dead ones for fun, non dead ones for competition. Don't bother learning them for competitive play...and that's that

again. poor justification for a bad design philosophy.

[daniello_s]

By the way, don't you think that it is somehow not fair to players who uses now dual-faction masters to hack this duality in m3e? What they should do with the models they bought, assembled and painted and will no longer be able to use again with the start of the new edition?

[Passenty]

20 minutes ago, wobbly_goggy said:

Anyone strictly competitive will have enough minis that it's less of an issue.

Also you can't please all the people all the time. The strictly competitive is a small percentage. Keeping more people mote interested is more important. 

Side note - strictlycompetitive Nico was frankly horrible to play against.  The main purpose of a game is for both people to enjoy it.

There are plenty more masters to chose from. Far more than have gone. So you can use the dead ones for fun, non dead ones for competition. Don't bother learning them for competitive play...and that's that

I play competitive and still see it as a problem. Its so nice that I can just throw out of the window 1/3 of miniatures I bought and just sulk it up! Merc I understand but deleting masters is over the top!

[MajorUndead]

I have a few questions about the Malifaux app.

If the cards will be translated in several languages, is there any chance the app will be available in those languages?

If you have paid to have access to the cards & so on in the app, will you have access to the same things for 3rd right away or would you have to pay separately for those?

[lusciousmccabe]

I have trouble understanding all the rage about the lost masters. It seems to be a common enough standpoint, but for me losing the use of certain models is inevitable with an edition change so why agonise over it. Sucks a bit for people who've only recently ordered those models I'll admit, but there's still time for some games of M2E or to use them casually in 3rd ed. 

Maybe it's because I think of the hobby and gaming aspect of minis as being largely separate activities. So if you spent 40 hours carefully converting and painting a gorgeous master, you still have that model to sit on your shelf and look pretty, which is what it spends 99% of it's time doing anyway. If you're really just into the gaming element then having your master written out of the game (or changed format or whatever) isn't really any different from having their rules changed between editions to the extent that they play totally differently, or become non-viable for tournaments.

tl;dr bits of plastic vary in their usefulness, but their prettiness never lasts forever

[Stonewall78]

Hey guys why don't we just change to square bases while we are at it. I mean it will be so much better to lineup our armies.... /sarcasm

[Davie]

7 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

By the way, don't you think that it is somehow not fair to players who uses now dual-faction masters to hack this duality in m3e? What they should do with the models they bought, assembled and painted and will no longer be able to use again with the start of the new edition?

Maybe the Keyword Mechanic solves this issue. So maybe you can still use Tanuki with Brewmaster for Example? Maybe the Models themselfs gain/stay som sort of dual faction-status

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

 

1 minute ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I have trouble understanding all the rage about the lost masters. It seems to be a common enough standpoint, but for me losing the use of certain models is inevitable with an edition change so why agonise over it.

Masters are not models like any others. They're personalities, something players are - strange as it sounds - emotionally attached to. I don't mind changes if they are motivated by game's inner dynamics and balance issues (removal of a Master that can summon any undead minion is a correct move from that perspective). But a game should not be driven by it's story, never. Especially if the story is expressed in a form of badly written novelettes.

[Kyris]

1 minute ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

I don't mind changes if they are motivated by game's inner dynamics and balance issues (removal of a Master that can summon any undead minion is a correct move from that perspective).

I'd disagree. it'd be easier to just nerf the master than remove them entirely.

unless the master is built around something that is inherently broken and impossible to fix without breaking another master.