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Any update on TOS goodies?


Brass Monkey

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I can relate and sympathize with @envyizm for sure.

Kickstarter is consistently an incredibly frustrating experience for me and I have decided that I am not a good fit for large scale projects like TOS as I am just not able to get a grasp on what the realistic expectation should actually be beyond what is presented and that's when things get rough for me. I am nevertheless looking forward to receiving product.

Having played a very large number of games with the backer rules I see TOS as a product line I will happily support going forward and am very excited to see it move into gaming stores and online retailers. It's something wonderful, to be sure, in terms of rules, gameplay, models, etc. And although the journey through the breach is rough for some there is always greatness to be found on The Other Side :D

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Absolutely, delays are frustrating. Another kickstarter I did was the Infinity RPG, and that was delayed massively as well. There weren't even miniatures in that! CB were just very, very careful about the quality of the fluff. I did the Dogmight Skirmish box too, and IIRC that was delayed a couple of months due to moving their whole office and workshop right after the kickstarter ended. Delays happen.

The delays for this were nearly all QC related. Detail not being up to par, completed models with large gaps on joins, etc. Those aren't things that are easy to fix. Low detail can be either/or the PVC mix itself or the mold. Bad joins is the PVC shrinking too much and the part needing to be cast larger. These things take time to resolve as new pieces need to be made, new molds made and new mixes trialed.

While I would really have liked to have gotten this 6+ months ago, I'd have been less happy if, for my ~$600au or so that I 'invested', Wyrd sent my a bunch of models with huge seams and low detail that would normally be tossed in the bin on the QC line and just said 'well, we had a deadline, you get what you're given'.

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Quality is extremely important especially when, for better or worse, you are a miniatures company with a reputation for detailed miniatures. My take away and perspective here isn't that delays are unwarranted just that they are frustrating and by no means fair to the consumer. That doesn't mean that because they are unfair to the consumer that any one person or group (such as Wyrd) as at fault, though. I don't find the ideals exclusive and I think it's perfectly reasonable for a backer to be upset with their experience (I'm going to avoid using the word 'investor' here because it doesn't feel right to me).

A lot of Kickstarters I have done, the vast majority in fact, have experienced severe delays (The only projects I have backed that have delivered on time are printed RPG Products from Kobold Press) and those that were easier to swallow were those that did a better job of managing and (re)addressing expectations. I would say Wyrd did an okay job in this department - not a great or an excellent job but not a poor or a horrible job, either. Sometimes that's all you can do is an okay job when factors unknown to you arise or knowledge you would need to do a better job just isn't present. I don't necessarily think that does or should  have a lot of meaning to backers, though. A backer could certainly choose to display or react with the upmost  understanding and empathy however we are not by any means responsible for foreseeing project challenges or going beyond the communicated scope of what has been presented to us. I would say that is an opportunity for improvement for Wyrd and that's fine; nobody's perfect and I've certainly never seen Wyrd claim to be so I'll do something I tend to loathe doing and assume that they know Bad Things Happen.

I guess my blathering on is basically to say that I appreciate the focus on Quality Control and am happy to see that the miniatures I am receiving are worth what I backed (As a X2 double commander with add-ons) but am still frustrated by the delays and don't see those as having to be mutually exclusive. I am not by any means livid but I could certainly never fault anyone for being upset at this stage of the venture.

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Interesting thing brought to my attention via a Kickstarter post: apparently a certain retail gamestore has pre-orders up at a significant discount to what we are 'investing' in building the game for the sake of some community (possibly of suckers). I get that we are awarded free stuff, quality of manufacturing, etc. However, I have aionus, alt Lazarus and the classic Pandora all built from the newer processes they've been using. They look quality to me. Idk about you guys, but I've felt like I was being played by nearly every purchase I've made from gaming companies (paying 50 bucks for 25 cents worth of various polymer plastics). However, it was justifiable through the enjoyment I have gained from it. This experience as a whole has left such a "pay it forward" kind of negative experience, I'm having some obvious issues in being able to excuse wyrd for the sake of anything else. From delays not pertaining to customer satisfaction and catering to the retail market at the expense of their backers. I don't know about you all, but I'm extremely dissatisfied with how they've handled the whole process. 

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26 minutes ago, envyizm said:

Interesting thing brought to my attention via a Kickstarter post: apparently a certain retail gamestore has pre-orders up at a significant discount to what we are 'investing' in building the game for the sake of some community (possibly of suckers). 

I assume then you also saw the comment that the online store is selling at basically no profit just to get the sales. Parasitic online stores selling cheaper than MSRP to steal brick and mortar sales are nothing new, there's a reason GW went on their little crusade to stop Web sales years ago.

Based on the rest of the posts from the others, it seems safe to say we don't agree with you. From your posts it sounds like you were expecting some CMON-style bonus that puts backers into a far better position than retail purchasers, and that is very toxic for a games future (I know several game stores who refuse to sell or host CMON products because of their practices). I bought in because I want a working army day 1, but it sounds to me like you were looking for some permanent advantage and frankly I'm glad that's not what we have.

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@renab

Not in agreeance? Based off of the small number of outspoken individuals who claim to be representing the entire community (how presumptuous). 

If you had been spent more than a few moments cherry picking triggering phrases from my statements, you would know that getting you guys to agree wasn't ever my intention. 

To assume some "I want it all" kind of favoritism for paying into a Kickstarter is an absurd exaggeration. 

Wyrd's sheer lack of attention to the satisfaction of their community aside from sending trash minis to their Kickstarter backers hardly excuses the crap we've had to deal with throughout this process. 

They set their own deadlines and failed time and time again. I will fault them for that. As for paying too much for these minis: we'll have to wait and see.

As for miniature market selling low enough to lump them into the parasitic online sites is a poor generalization as they aren't any less expensive than my LGS.

Those gamers who will quite literally buy into any franchise wouldn't be capable of seeing the faults here.

Wyrd made some really poor choices that cost them time and now they're trying to recoup at the expense of their backers. I will fault them for that.

I'll try out something positive to finish so my words don't get cherry picked so hard this time: I've always enjoyed playing the games they produce as well as the art style of the game. The franchise is cool and not nearly as bloated, overpriced or ridiculous as some of the other table top games have become. 

 

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33 minutes ago, envyizm said:

@renabNot in agreeance? Based off of the small number of outspoken individuals who claim to be representing the entire community (how presumptuous). 

I would disagree that it is presumptuous. The overall tone on these forums for TOS and the KS as a whole are neutral to positive. 

33 minutes ago, envyizm said:

If you had been spent more than a few moments cherry picking triggering phrases from my statements, you would know that getting you guys to agree wasn't ever my intention. 

Irrelevant - Nobody ever implied you thought you did. Stating that we did not was a factual statement made in response to verbiage like "Idk about you guys". So now you know. About us guys, gals, and Tyrants. 

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Wyrd's sheer lack of attention to the satisfaction of their community aside from sending trash minis to their Kickstarter backers hardly excuses the crap we've had to deal with throughout this process. 

I disagree that there lack of attention is or was at this level. 

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As for miniature market selling low enough to lump them into the parasitic online sites is a poor generalization as they aren't any less expensive than my LGS.

I, for one, would love to know what magical brick and motor sites stay in business with consistent 10-15% + discounts off MSRP pricing and what they do to keep the doors open and lights on. 

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Those gamers who will quite literally buy into any franchise wouldn't be capable of seeing the faults here.

 

You are now generalizing everyone who disagrees with you. If you want people to read then read what I have typed, for starters, as I an a huge supporter of TOS and by no means not acknowledging faults as I perceive them.

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Wyrd made some really poor choices that cost them time and now they're trying to recoup at the expense of their backers. I will fault them for that.

Do you have proof of this?

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I'll try out something positive to finish so my words don't get cherry picked so hard this time: I've always enjoyed playing the games they produce as well as the art style of the game. The franchise is cool and not nearly as bloated, overpriced or ridiculous as some of the other table top games have become. 

People don't quote and converse with you because you end posts on certain notes. They do so because you have posted on a discussion forum and discussion forums are for discussion.

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I'm not sure how Wyrd has mishandled this kickstarter. Most Kickstarters i've seen or been part of ends up being delayed as they run into unforeseen issues and i'd rather them take the time to make sure its done right rather than half ass it to rush out a bad product.

Sure the delays suck but i'm betting Wyrd is more upset about the delays than anyone else. They were most likely shooting to release TOS at Gencon and were unable to hit their mark so they missed out on some sales and potentially bringing in a wave of new players. Also, i'm happy that they did not sell TOS at Gencon when they could have easily done so since they are now getting their shipments in. That was handled well and in the interest of their backers 100% vs their profit margins. They are going to make sure we get our orders before they end up selling that and I see that as loyalty to those who helped them launch their game.

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I on the other hand am very disappointed Wyrd has not air-shipped some starter boxes for GenCon. This would allow them to justify the shipping premium by charging full retail cost to consumers as a manufacturer. This would increase potential members of TOS community and allow youtuber's and painters to start reviewing the product ahead of the release. Generating much needed free marketing.

The only reasoning this strikes me as not being done is we, the backers, are not anywhere close to receiving our product ( promised end of August). This would anger the backers if GenCon received some pre-release 2-3 months ahead of the backers ( 2-3 weeks would have been acceptable)

Last official update was on the 17th, hoping for a spark of hope by 31st as all of us village people are getting restless and sharpening old pitchforks.

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Wyrd posted a mid week update. Looks like they're still waiting on a shipment from over seas. We may not have to wait till Friday for an update, but it doesn't really tell us anything about an ETA for our purchases. I'm not entirely sure why they couldn't begin fulfilling the KS and BK orders while awaiting this last shipment (perhaps international orders as they tend to spend longer time in shipping), but I'm obviously not the one in charge of logistics for this project. Hopefully we will all get some closure soon.

 

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9 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

 This would increase potential members of TOS community and allow youtuber's and painters to start reviewing the product ahead of the release. Generating much needed free marketing.

Its pretty likely that there are some non wyrdos out there supporting the KS and BK initiative for TOS as well as youtubers and painters. If they actually get our kits out before the initial release, the games backers will most definitely generate that kind of marketing without potentially generating resentment from their backers. 

With that said, my pledge was meant to bring a few of my friends into the TOS gaming community. Hence, why my patience for the unnecessary delays and hiccups ran out a while ago (IMO). I do all of my own painting and draw a half way decent crowd when I play at my LGS. I'm sure I'll bring in some new players. The character design is phenomenal. Should be easy to bring some awesome paint schemes to the table. There will be plenty of free marketing when the thousands of backers get their goods.

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10 hours ago, envyizm said:

I'm not entirely sure why they couldn't begin fulfilling the KS and BK orders while awaiting this last shipment (perhaps international orders as they tend to spend longer time in shipping), but I'm obviously not the one in charge of logistics for this project. Hopefully we will all get some closure soon.

Because, from the sound of it, they're using bulk distribution centers. That's how we got such huge shipping discounts. My order of two full commander pledges plus their entire factions cost me less to ship than my usual gencon order direct from Wyrd.

That means they're bulk shipping the whole areas product to a distribution center, who then break it down and ship individually. Wyrd couldn't give us such cheap shipping if they sent it piecemeal.

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3 hours ago, -Loki- said:

Because, from the sound of it, they're using bulk distribution centers. That's how we got such huge shipping discounts. My order of two full commander pledges plus their entire factions cost me less to ship than my usual gencon order direct from Wyrd.

That means they're bulk shipping the whole areas product to a distribution center, who then break it down and ship individually. Wyrd couldn't give us such cheap shipping if they sent it piecemeal.

Okay, that makes sense as to why they're waiting on the last shipment. I typically do walk in purchases from my LGS, instead of ordering through wyrd just for sheer ease of access. However, I've made Easter/gencon/etc purchases through wyrd, but it's usually combining an order with friends and splitting the cost of shipping. Shipping stateside is usually pretty cheap regardless though. When I got the bill for backerkit, it seemed like a pretty typical rate for shipping at a glance. Might be more beneficial for international backers.

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15 hours ago, envyizm said:

 The character design is phenomenal. Should be easy to bring some awesome paint schemes to the table. 

That is 100% why I believe this game will succeed in the long run from its community.  Doing plastic and large unique models will drawn in crowds when displaying a fully painted army. I strongly believe that Warmahordes got to where it used to be by introducing Colosals/Gargants. First thing I am paining is my two Dreadnoughts and two Cutters as centerpiece models.

Nothing irks me more than watching 40k players drop bareplactic primarches/demons on the table that detract from the experience as opposed to have people walk up and say "dam that is cool" when having them painted.

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My play group is very interested in this but we have been burned one to many time from KS plastic figures.. the saddest being Relic Knights. Well come to think of it every CMON project we all backed. I digress.. either way we will be waiting to see the in hand quality of the sculpts and casts before going in on this one. Wyrd hasn't let the group down yet so we have high hopes, just gotta wait and see though.

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7 hours ago, envyizm said:

Shipping stateside is usually pretty cheap regardless though. When I got the bill for backerkit, it seemed like a pretty typical rate for shipping at a glance. Might be more beneficial for international backers.

It’s not uncommon for shipping to Australia to be nearly as much as what you bought. Wyrds International shipping rates are very high.

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54 minutes ago, retnab said:

Even just up to Canada it's regularly about half the total price of the order again. Whoever they're using for this, I hope they make this a permanent shipping deal, it makes a huge difference.

Guess I can't complain too much about their bulk shipping method as the delay created seems to open things up for people in other countries. It's easy to forget about how ludicrous shipping can be for international customers considering wyrd ships stateside.

If the delay is worth the value in shipping for you guys across the pond (or perceived boarders), it works for me. I think wyrd actually made more sales in the UK than state side. I wasn't entirely aware of just how large wyrds international following was until I checked out the stats on the KS website.

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I think the shipping for my triple commander pledge plus extras was less than shipping for my Christmas rasputina box, so it's a huge savings for me, ( although much of the savings may have been spent on extras...)

I would have liked the stuff earlier, but I think that 9 months slipped actually makes it one of the quickest kickstarters I've backed. They have at least informed me as we went along about delays. 

 

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Honestly, this past year+ wait has been incredibly frustrating, but now that we are pretty much at the end I think its worth the wait as long as it is a quality product. Wyrd has not let me down yet and I have not seen anything to indicate that TOS will be any different.

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