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Oblivion awar

Gunline suggestions

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Hi there!

I'm new for Malifaux and played about 5 games. I have a Leveticus crew but looks like he doesn't fit my play style. Or his crew is too complex with all that ongoing summoning (1 abomination per game ftw).  I'm looking for suggestions with some kind of shooting list (better to be strait-forward solid stand-and-shoot, but I also can consider hitshoot-n-run). My main goal is to get a list that could help me to learn my opponents without getting wiped of key models on turn 3 or completely outplayed by schemes. It also would be fantastic if you can provide some explanation how it should be played.

Models I have:

Leveticus ,

Hollow waif x3,

Rusty Alice,

Abomination x6,

Desolation engine,

Ashes and Dust,

Sue,

Johan,

Bishop,

Miss Deed (Tailor),

Midnight Stalker,

Von Schill,

Librarian,

Specialist,

Trapper,

Freikorpsman x2,

Steamtrunk,

Hodgepodge emissary.

 

I'm looking forward Parker's crew as soon as it will appear in local store. But what I've heard is that he is a complex glass cannon and do not forgive any kind of mistakes. And Lazarus when Wyrd will open sale for his alt model.

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I’m with you there on the lack of abomination summoning. It might be an opponent hard-counter problem, though. If I put the upgrade on Rusty Alyce the opposing master places something into her face, stopping her from shooting (the solution to which is hiring Anna Lovelace as a mercenary) and if I put it on Leveticus he ends up dead or engaged on the first activation and isn’t shooting either—and in my meta, if he’s been engaged it’s by a master who can tank his focused melee damage! (Punch Hoffman three times for severe damage, do 2 and 2 and 4 after stone prevention: punch Ironsides for back-to-back flipped red jokers, and yet she carries the upgrade to negate red joker damage...)

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I'm not sure any list makes you immune to kill heavy opponents or being outplayed on schemes, those are things you learn to counter through playing until you learn more about how the game functions. If anything I think trying to gunline makes you more succeptible to both those things. 

A quick glance at your collection makes me think the problem is too few activations since that usually causes problems with both scoring schemes and in the arms race, you have an awful lot of expensive models.

Push up your activations with a few abominations and Levi's waifs going first so you don't expose your important models in the early game. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

wI'm not sure any list makes you immune to kill heavy opponents or being outplayed on schemes, those are things you learn to counter through playing until you learn more about how the game functions. If anything I think trying to gunline makes you more succeptible to both those things. 

A quick glance at your collection makes me think the problem is too few activations since that usually causes problems with both scoring schemes and in the arms race, you have an awful lot of expensive models.

Push up your activations with a few abominations and Levi's waifs going first so you don't expose your important models in the early game. 

 

In all games I have played model count was about 8+. The problem I have faced: waifs does nothing but activations. Abominations does nothing but cost 4 ss (slow, low damage, get killed easily) and becoming a resources for desolation engine that cannot earn anything because he is summoned and does not count. I've tried to play all in and trade game but only got more deaths comparing with hiding in my deploy zone and shoot back to enemy.

What I'm looking right now is easy to understand list without full payload of shenanigans that I can understand how to drive in 1-2 games. And only after it I can start focusing on opponents lists and all schemes. Otherwise I'm losing control on my crew (forgot to teleport stalker at the start of every turn, forgot to draw card with Sue, forgot to declare stone use, forgot to apply 2 damage due to abomination activation and so on).

As i told, I think it's just not my playing style. I've selected Leveticus crew only because they looks cool and brutal (metal and undead flesh, what could be better?), not because I like how they perform on the table.

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13 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

... becoming a resources for desolation engine that cannot earn anything because he is summoned and does not count.

That's only true for scoring in a single Strategy; Ours.

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16 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

That's only true for scoring in a single Strategy; Ours.

Even if it's true the point is that Engine have nothing common with gunline. Here is thing. I cannot trade model in close combat reasonably without knowing  all opponent's list tricks. To learn em I have to focus on them, but not on my own list tricks. Then then comes all things that I've already described. 

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34 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

In all games I have played model count was about 8+. The problem I have faced: waifs does nothing but activations. Abominations does nothing but cost 4 ss (slow, low damage, get killed easily) and becoming a resources for desolation engine that cannot earn anything because he is summoned and does not count. I've tried to play all in and trade game but only got more deaths comparing with hiding in my deploy zone and shoot back to enemy.

Waifs don't do anything except pad activations and make your master come back, they are free activations included in Levi's cost and you can't count on thrm to do anything. They should just walk to where you want thrm to be at the end of the turn when Levi comes back so ou need to know where their anchor model will be.

The des. engine can score tons of schemes it just doesn't count for ours and can't interact on the turn it was summoned. You could have an abomination place a marker and the engine that was summoned from that abomination can then kill a model near it to score Dig their graves for example. 

34 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

What I'm looking right now is easy to understand list without full payload of shenanigans that I can understand how to drive in 1-2 games. And only after it I can start focusing on opponents lists and all schemes. Otherwise I'm losing control on my crew (forgot to teleport stalker at the start of every turn, forgot to draw card with Sue, forgot to declare stone use, forgot to apply 2 damage due to abomination activation and so on).

Don't pick Parkers crew, Levi is a lot easier than him. Pretty much any crew will have stone use and stuff, I would say you need at least ten games to just learn the basics of the game if this is your first crew. Don't play thr stalker, take a trapper instead, it is straight forward and gives Levi a good anchor spot far back and some ranged threat. Knowing how to wcore your schemes might be more important than remembering the rules for your own models, which models you pick depends on which schemes and strat you need to score. You can take a fixed list in which case i would say 2-3 models at 8+ and the rest cheap schrme runners and learn those models. Thst will be good for most strats and schemes.

34 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

As i told, I think it's just not my playing style. I've selected Leveticus crew only because they looks cool and brutal (metal and undead flesh, what could be better?), not because I like how they perform on the table.

Von Schill might be easier to grasp, you seem to own his crew. Parker will be a nightmare.

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Trading models is a tricky way to compare crew since kills only sometimes matter for the score. With Levi you could hire rotten belles and just lure one enemy model at a time into your death trap/markers that will score 

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Thank you for details.

31 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Thst will be good for most strats and schemes.

What does "Thst" stands for?

31 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Von Schill might be easier to grasp, you seem to own his crew.

That what I'm thinking of but I'm afraid I will run out of cards pretty fast with all that "discard to heal, discard to add pair". And his crew looks too expensive (7 for trapper, 5 for regular infantry with small damage). And Von Schill himself doesn't looks like a killer machine that will wipe everyone alone. I came up with idea for that crew:

Leader: Von Schill - Cache:(1)
   Oath of the Freikorps 1ss 
   Survivalist 1ss 
Steam Trunk 3ss 
Sue 8ss 
   Return Fire 1ss 
Freikorps Specialist 7ss 
   Scramble 1ss 
Freikorpsmann 5ss 
Freikorpsmann 5ss 
Freikorps Engineer 6ss 
Freikorps Trapper 7ss 

But I'm afraid there is no real fire power. Only Sue has min and I can only hope for hand full of rams for discard purposes.
 

14 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

you could hire rotten belles

I'm avoiding buying out-of-faction models because I can come up with a situation when I spent money and effort to paint and do not really enjoy playing it. At least until I understand I have enough in-faction models. 

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Sorry, writing on my phone without autocorrect so my "a" sometimes becomes an "s" and "e" becomes "r" and w becomes q. ;) Thst is that.

Von Schill might give you what you are looking for. You don't have to use every discard effect every turn. Do you have the app? He got some pretty great new upgrades that are not in his box, can't remember which ones though.

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Thank you. I thought it's an abbreviation for a model. I'm using the last one, that gives oath keeper to any freikorps model. But I do not understand another one, Nythera Aftermath, that gives weaker melee and and ability to shoot at pushed model.

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36 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

Thank you. I thought it's an abbreviation for a model. I'm using the last one, that gives oath keeper to any freikorps model. But I do not understand other one, Nythera Aftermath, that gives weaker melee and and ability to shoot at pushed model.

The new ml attack places the model and has better range and a higher stat than his regular attack. As soon as he places it he gets to shoot at it and the shooting attack is better than his melee attacks so that's pretty good. The ability to shoot anything that is pushed is pretty good outside of his own activations as well. I'm not sure what has pushes in outcasts but it works anytime an opponents model is pushed or placed. Johan can push his target and has range 3" so could charge, push on the first attack but keep thetarget between 2 and 3 inches away to let von Schill shoot without randomising before Johan hits with the second charge attack.

Apart from that pushes are generally prtty good since a lot of mission require specific positions so von Schill could push someone so they don't count for the strategy in ours if he attacks them after they activated which can let you win the strategy every turn. He could also push something to where you need it to score full points on setup. If you charge something you could push it twice or use thr ability to hit two models on a charge to push two different models to where you want them. If you face gremlins and they use squeel to get away from oneof your models he can also shoot them if they end up near him.

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16 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The new ml attack places the model and has better range and a higher stat than his regular attack. As soon as he places it he gets to shoot at it and the shooting attack is better than his melee attacks so that's pretty good. The ability to shoot anything that is pushed is pretty good outside of his own activations as well. I'm not sure what has pushes in outcasts but it works anytime an opponents model is pushed or placed.

Apart from that pushes are generally prtty good since a lot of mission require specific positions so von Schill could push someone so they don't count for the strategy in ours if he attacks them after they activated which can let you win the strategy every turn. He could also push something to where you need it to score full points on setup. If you charge something you could push it twice or use thr ability to hit two models on a charge to push two different models to where you want them. If you face gremlins and they use squeel to get away from oneof your models he can also shoot them if they end up near him.

Looks interesting but too complex. Especially without deep knowledge of missions it could even makes everything worse. Positing always was my weak side. I'm planning to use Von Schill as support master that spends all his actions to give oath keeper to other crew models.

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19 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

Looks interesting but too complex. Especially without deep knowledge of missions it could even makes everything worse. Positing always was my weak side. I'm planning to use Von Schill as support master that spends all his actions to give oath keeper to other crew models.

It doesn't require deep knowledge, just the basic knowledge of the missions involved which I would argue s required to win any game. In the missions where you control quarters of the table you cannot score if you are within 6" of the center point on the table or if you are in two quarters at the same time. You need to constantly measure or place some sort of marker so you know exactly where that is and never place your models there. If you know where you don't want to be you know where to push the opponent. A lot of action will be near the center line so keep pushing things onto the center line so they can't score if you think you can't kill them.

Positioning is very central to becoming good at Malifaux. I have myself done stupid things like charge in and kill a model only to have my opponent be super happy because I went near a few scheme markers and they then scored 3 VP from their chosen scheme making that the worst possible move for me. If you play a gunline list you will need to keep track of how far the enemy can move to engage you and how much distance to keep between your models so the enemy cannot engage two or even three of your shooting models and make them useless for half the game. There are also an awful lot of models that can make shooting attacks, especially those with a :ToS-Range: icon, almost completely useless. I started out trying to play gunlines but I personally find it to be the hardest playstyle to master. 

In a Leveticus list you can often throw in Ashes and Dust to kill things because if thr opponent kills it you usually get it back anyway. Leveticus can also use it by killing it and moving himself since it comes back anyway. Since Leveticus comes back as well he can be very aggressive and go near enemies as long as the scheme to kill the enemy leader is not in the pool. Leveticus wants to hunt weakened models so a few ranged models is good for him to have. The more expensive ones also function as anchors for his waifs.

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35 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The new ml attack places the model and has better range and a higher stat than his regular attack. As soon as he places it he gets to shoot at it and the shooting attack is better than his melee attacks so that's pretty good. The ability to shoot anything that is pushed is pretty good outside of his own activations as well. I'm not sure what has pushes in outcasts but it works anytime an opponents model is pushed or placed.

And if Von Schill has the upgrade that lets him hand out Oathkeeper and he has given a copy to himself, the follow up shot will get a :+flip:+flipto the attack flip.

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10 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Positioning is very central to becoming good at Malifaux. I have myself done stupid things like charge in and kill a model only to have my opponent be super happy because I went near a few scheme markers and they then scored 3 VP from their chosen scheme making that the worst possible move for me. If you play a gunline list you will need to keep track of how far the enemy can move to engage you and how much distance to keep between your models so the enemy cannot engage two or even three of your shooting models and make them useless for half the game. There are also an awful lot of models that can make shooting attacks, especially those with a :ToS-Range: icon, almost completely useless. I started out trying to play gunlines but I personally find it to be the hardest playstyle to master. 

Reasonable argument. I must agree that SaS list not always good. But I have only achieved any good results with Ashes and Dust (but was completely outplayed by mission).

12 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

In a Leveticus list you can often throw in Ashes and Dust to kill things because if thr opponent kills it you usually get it back anyway. Leveticus can also use it by killing it and moving himself since it comes back anyway

But doesn't condition immunity and summoning makes Ashes and Dust almost useless for 3/4 (ignoring wagons, 1/27 chances to appear) of strategy? And he is not cheap at all to neglect this point.

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I think you are confusing yourself by trying to look at advanced tactics in some places, while just ignoring basic abilities.

Gun lines struggle in most malifaux games because you need to get to places to do things, and gun lines don't go places. So it's not easy for people to offer suggestions for that because it'd hard to do. ( It's hard to deny the enemy points for Ours if you never enter their half, it's hard to push a wagon if you don't move, it's hard to remove a symbol if you aren't getting near it). 

Ashes and dust is not a bad choice in ours by default. He will score points for it until he is killed the first time, and even then he is capable of doing schemes and killing enemy models to deny them points. 

Killing is very rarely going to score you points. You can win without killing any enemy models, and you can win without you having a single model left alive on the table. So whilst most of the time you will kill things , you need to remember it's not the aim of the game. 

I think what sounds like a good idea for you is to try and play a relatively simple list, to not miss out on your own abilities, perhaps set yourself goals like not forgetting sues card draw for a whole game. Then as you get more comfortable with what your crew can do, you work out what they can't do and try and make you games so the models are doing what they are good at and avoiding what they are bad at. 

 

Then start looking at the other models you own,and how to use them. If you don't see the strength of nytheria aftermath that gives von schill an attack that lets him move the target to where you want, and then get a free shot on them with a gun that then let's him move, then don't worry about it at the moment, but also don't worry too much that ashes and dust can't get the ply for information condition. 

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Thanks a lot. It was really useful feedback. One thing I'm afraid about playing with Von Schill - I have no idea how he can win games. And for now I'm on the middle between learn with simple crew and lose at 150% rate or be lost in rules but hire better models and have at least some chances to win. 

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7 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

Thanks a lot. It was really useful feedback. One thing I'm afraid about playing with Von Schill - I have no idea how he can win games. And for now I'm on the middle between learn with simple crew and lose at 150% rate or be lost in rules but hire better models and have at least some chances to win. 

If you focus on scoring your schemes, you may be surprised at how well a simple crew can actually do. Most points in Malifaux are scored by walking somewhere, interacting, or walking somewhere and interacting. The majority of models in the game can do that. 

Bringing more expensive models with a bunch of stuff that you need to remember to use or synergies you need to work to setup puts you in a worse spot than just bringing straightforward models if you don't remember to use those things.

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1 hour ago, Oblivion awar said:

Thanks a lot. It was really useful feedback. One thing I'm afraid about playing with Von Schill - I have no idea how he can win games. And for now I'm on the middle between learn with simple crew and lose at 150% rate or be lost in rules but hire better models and have at least some chances to win. 

I don't believe that any malifaux model is so bad that hiring it means you'll lose. Knowing how to use a bad model properly will get better results than putting a good model there but not using it well. 

 

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Von Schill has become a really strong support Master. He can shoot quite well, keeping distance and forcing your opponent to move. He can charge any model more dangerous than him at distance. He cannot be blocked for any engaging enemy. He makes Freikorps harder to take down in his bubble, he can give other Freikorps extra actions (or even himself), he can place around him his allies or enemies. He's not easy to kill. 

The great thing of Von Schill is that he's not the best at anything, but he has not only one form of fight, so if he finds that his enemy is better than him in melé, VS can shoot, if is better at shooting, he can go to mele. He can hunt support masters, and has a anti-push/place shooting bubble to disrupt movement tricks that also serves versus summoners. 

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I use Von Schill, and I can give you a few pointers:

Never EVER go with him without the Nythera Aftermath upgrade. That upgrade buff VS a lot. You can grab enemies at Ml 2 and throw them away with a free shoot, that's excelent for disrupt enemy placing. You can use the very same action against one of your models. For example you can give oathkeeper to a model, attack it (for 1 damage) and throw it where you need it. Then activate that model, discard the oathkeeper and you have the distance of the throw, and the 3 walks; more than enought to move anyone (even Hannah) wherever you need it. 

Again, with the upgrade, you can charge a model and keep in range of 2 (or 3) of them and as you can attack whoever is in range with the charge, can throw 2 or 3 of them (4 with finish the cur) out of place, disrupting auras or in the example of controling zones, throw them out of your square and/or to the middle. (or out of the middle, that's gold with extraction and show of force). 

Did I said that he can shoot A LOT? Sh 12. Every time someone is placed or pushed within range of the upgrade, he can shoot with a flip+ for free. 

Usually, My crew goes with the main force to hold a place (with Anna and Hannah disrupting enemy placement) and go with VS and Strongarm to annoy enemies for the flank, keep them engaged, etc. 

If you want good shooters, Strongarm suit can do wonders. With the (0) action he can shoot with Sh7 at 10 range. Also he can do almost whatever you need, is like a mini-Von Schill.

I hope it helps. Post some of your results with your shooters.

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This is really gimmicky but fun.

Declared Faction: Outcasts 
Crew Name: The Lazer-us Option 50ss 
Leader: Von Schill - Cache:(1)
   Engage At Will 1ss 
   Nythera Aftermath 1ss 
   Oath of the Freikorps 1ss 
Steam Trunk 3ss 
Rusty Alyce 10ss 
   I Pay Better 1ss 
Lazarus 10ss 
Desperate Mercenary 3ss 
Desperate Mercenary 3ss 
Freikorps Trapper 7ss 
Freikorps Trapper 7ss 
 

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Every faction has What I like to call a learn the game Master, VS is the Outcast learn the game Master, He has no weaknesses, (other than small Cache) works well in his theme  Crew. His Wave 5 upgrades are awesome, and when show of force is in the pool, it's an auto take.  I would suggest Strong Arm Suit or Anna Lovelace over Specialist.  

A good way to span Aftermath is charge your model that is already in combat. attack the Enemy, push the model  within 2 in of VS then shoot, repeat. 

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39 minutes ago, beergod said:

A good way to span Aftermath is charge your model that is already in combat. attack the Enemy, push the model  within 2 in of VS then shoot, repeat. 

I'm not following this maneuver. Wouldn't you usually be able to charge the opponent anyway if you can reach them after moving to charge your own model? Nice way tocharge without LoS though.

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