Gunline suggestions

[Zebo]

1 hour ago, beergod said:

Push the model  within 2 in of VS then shoot, repeat. 

If the model is 2" from VS, he's engaged and cannot shoot. If is more than 2", you cannot repeat unless you hit/cheat/ss the push trigger from VS's pistol. 

[Jesy Blue]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Nice way tocharge without LoS though.

.... and models with Disguise or who cannot be charged for other reasons.  The look on opponents faces are priceless!

[wafew]

Another way you could have VS be supporting, and still punch thing, is to attack big targets/master with his jack knife, and cheat/stone to lower their DF, and then have the rest of your crew bunch the target up, works really good with nytheria, since you can place the target away from VS so no randomization happens. I've gotten an enemy master to 1 DF, and my crew had an easy time hitting her, and dealing better damage.

[beergod]

4 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I'm not following this maneuver. Wouldn't you usually be able to charge the opponent anyway if you can reach them after moving to charge your own model? Nice way tocharge without LoS though.

I was referring to LOS, Should have been more clear

 

[beergod]

3 hours ago, Zebo said:

If the model is 2" from VS, he's engaged and cannot shoot. If is more than 2", you cannot repeat unless you hit/cheat/ss the push trigger from VS's pistol. 

not if they only have a 1 inch melee

 

[Adran]

21 minutes ago, beergod said:

not if they only have a 1 inch melee

 

Doesn't von schill New attack come with a 2" in which case he is engaged and can't shoot regardless if their engagement ranges. 

Engagement is a binary thing. If either model has a claw attack in range then both models are engaged and so can't make gun attacks. 

[CapnBloodbeard]

You know, von Schill also works really well hanging back with his crew - he doesn't need to be launching himself upfield and engaging in melee.  If he has put oathkeeper on a couple of other models, and he's taking shots then other models are getting positive flips.  

 

Also means Schill is keeping is own crew alive, he stays within range of his librarian and steam trunk, and he can still get into melee when the opponents reach you.  Schill functions just fine as a master who hangs back and supports his own crew.  

 

Depends on the board, schemes and strat if that's a good option or not.  

[Ludvig]

@CapnBloodbeard

But you don't want that glorious moustasche with attached action pose to hang back like some kind of coward, you want to get stuck in and beating face!

I would have to find the old metal pose to play him like that.

[Wurz_7]

I agree with violence and shoots to the air with @Ludvig on this one. His very own pose invite him to lead the team up front. He won't hide behind his troopers... he will be on the first line side to side with his grunts and being the first to engage the enemy, and the last one retreating. He is an action hero, not a politician.

[CapnBloodbeard]

I disagree (somewhat).  People have been saying that even before the Wave 5 upgrades when he was even worse at charging ahead.  

vS is great at getting amongst the enemy, don't get me wrong.  And especially with getting positive flips for defence against models he's damaged (because of course he has oathkeeper), he can be pretty hard to take down.  In fact, if you play him this way, I like to just use his entire first turn giving himself triple oathkeeper.  Might want a few extra SS too.

BUT, he doesn't HAVE to play this way.  He doesn't HAVE to be the beatstick.  He can spend his time hunting down the scheme runners.  He can, instead, play disruption.  Just leap around and throw the opposing models into awkward spots (or break up their synergies).  Throw them away from key areas.  Heck, you can even throw them back into your own crew.  

Or, hanging back and being a support master works really, really well too (in fact, it always has).  With the WP and H2K-but-not aura, he makes his models more survivable.  And that works better if he's distributing oathkeepers around to other models.  vS, Lazarus and Librarian, all with positive flips on key opposing models and protected by Schill?  Heck yes.  

And if you do that, you're going to punish anybody who gets into melee range - not to mention be about to outlast a lot of gun battles with the healing around.  

On of Schill's most underappreciated aspects is his sheer versatility.  He can play beatstick, tarpit, hunter, scheme runner, support.  He can play deep in enemy terrain, or in the front line along with his other models.  Other masters require you to set up their intended playstyle with their upgrades.  Schill you can, sure....but with some loadouts (especially using Wave 5), he can switch between any of these playstyles in a heartbeat

Not to mention having a few other tricks up his sleeves.  Handing out oathkeeper in turn 4/5 to that lonely Friekorpsmenn running to the back corner to drop scheme markers.  

 

Heck, while it's VERY situational, don't forget he can even throw his own models around.  Now, that's often just exchanging 1 AP for another so it's not something that you'll do a lot of, but it shows he does have a few tricks up his sleeves.  

 

Don't pigeon-hole yourself into playing Schill any particular way.  

Also depends what you want out of the game.  Tossing opposing models around, shooting them and repeating is one of the most fun things you can do, but sometimes doing something else is more likely to win.  So, might depend if you're playing to win, or if you don't care about the score.  

 

[katadder]

A gunline you could try is as follows. All fairly capable in melee too and vanessa can command lazarus so they tens to operate close together. Can also swap out Vanessa for Marlena as Lazarus could then copy her attack:

Declared Faction: Outcasts 
Crew Name: levi 50ss 
Leader: Leveticus - Cache:(3)
   Desolate Soul 2ss 
   Tally Sheet 1ss 
   Untimely Demise 1ss 
Hollow Waif 0ss 
Hollow Waif 0ss 
Rusty Alyce 10ss 
   Desolate Soul 2ss 
Sue 8ss 
   Return Fire 1ss 
Lazarus 10ss 
   Scout the Field 1ss 
Vanessa 8ss 
Hodgepodge Effigy 4ss 
 

[Wurz_7]

What I mean was that he doesn't need to be behind the bubble just supporting the crew, but in a funny way (Also, you must admit that the action hero pose says "lets get dangerous!")

As you said, I love to use him disrupting enemy movement throwing models out of place, or charging, jack knife and throwing it to Strongarm or Hannah for them to give it a "touch". 

[Oblivion awar]

Tnx everyone, who made any suggestions. I've took for a game an advice to build the most dumb and easy-to-operate crew.

My opponent took guild with Lady Justice, her totem, Francisco, 2 death marshals, jury, death marshal recruiter and pathfinder. No idea what upgrades he had. 
I've lost by both, models count and mission. And now my thoughts and ideas. Will go model by model:

Von Schill: I really enjoy his tool kit. Hanging out oath keepers and that combo: oath keeper to himself, attack with knife, attack with hand with + flip, attack with pistol are amazing. Survivalist helps me a lot and charge from melee also great. But I found him little bit "jack of all threads". When I saw min 5 from Lady Justice I refuse to consider Von Schill as a killer model. Otherwise, he is great and I liked him more then Levi.

Sue: Made everything what I have expected from him. Not a lot to discuss. I think one of the best model and looks like it will always found a place for him in my list. Only issue is a Return Fire upgrade. I've took it to all games and never used it, because all his deaths comes from swords/claws/hexes.

Steam trunk: Not sure that 3 points worth  ability to discard a card for 1/2/3 heal as given (0) to everyone within 4". That's all.

Trapper: Made a shot, earn 1 VP from vendetta, earn VP for opponent from prisoner. Was not able to do any other good shots. I personally like the idea of controlling whole table with him except one smaaaall but reasonable argument: 1/3 of table is covered with 2" walls and buildings that preventslos. 

Specialist: Does nothing but cleared my hand in attempts to save him with his mighty def 4 and died, giving burning to Francisco with 1 wound. Totally not worth for model with 7+1ss.

Librarian: Survives little bit longer then specialist, but also does nothing. Can't say something else.

Freikorpmen: I think they done everything what I can expect from scheme runners: placed a markers, earned a vp, died on next turn. Speed 5. But I think I can find anyone with speed 5 for 4 or even less ss.

Now to sum everything up: I've expected a super tanky playstyle from this list. The only 3 models who survives great are: Von Schill himself, Sue and one of freikorpsman who got "HtK" from Schill aura. All other models have died fast and calmly. What I've learned from this game: shooting list is not a panacea, it's better to dive. Von Schill is NOT a beater, but he can do some good moves with placement. This list is really lack of good damage dealers. I'm not expecting to kill master with 14 wounds, but I need some reliable option to do about 8 damage within one activation. Rest of his crew does... nothing? And list also suffers from def 4/5. Why do you need high WP if everyone go face and care only about DF? I know, some people told to pick an engineers, but I do not see why it's better have them? They cost more, they do not provice any good fire power. Any suggestions on improving list?

 

 

[wafew]

11 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

Sue: Made everything what I have expected from him. Not a lot to discuss. I think one of the best model and looks like it will always found a place for him in my list. Only issue is a Return Fire upgrade. I've took it to all games and never used it, because all his deaths comes from swords/claws/hexes.

Return fire works regardless of the method that attacks the model, it's just that the model with the upgrade has to use a shoot, and sue has a shoot attack that has  2", so if a melee or cast attacks sue, he can still use his shoot back at them.

11 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

Steam trunk: Not sure that 3 points worth  ability to discard a card for 1/2/3 heal as given (0) to everyone within 4". That's all.

a card of any value for a heal is great, plus it removes poison, the trunk can also remove burning, and also remove corpse / scrap markers. you may not see the need for those things against a lot of crews, but it makes a world of difference against some.

11 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

Librarian: Survives little bit longer then specialist, but also does nothing. Can't say something else.

She's a healer, I got Von Schill from 1 wound to fully healed while playing against a Lady Justice. 

11 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

Trapper: Made a shot, earn 1 VP from vendetta, earn VP for opponent from prisoner. Was not able to do any other good shots. I personally like the idea of controlling whole table with him except one smaaaall but reasonable argument: 1/3 of table is covered with 2" walls and buildings that preventslos. 

Did you attempt 2 shots with him, or 1 focused shot?

11 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

Von Schill: ...about lady justice...

They're different kinds of beater.

[Oblivion awar]

15 minutes ago, wafew said:

Return fire works regardless of the method

Didn't know that. It's actually great then and totally worth to pick.

16 minutes ago, wafew said:

Did you attempt 2 shots with him, or 1 focused shot?

I've used oath keeper that Schill gave, took a focus, misses and then hit with normal shot.

17 minutes ago, wafew said:

They're different kinds of beater.

Maybe, but what I've seen, her ability to kill much higher then mine. And I've end game with Schill alive in 3 wounds, trunk and trapper and opponent with almost fully healed Leader, healthy Jury, healthy death martial and almost healthy recruiter. And talking about librarian, I'm lacking of killing ability, not healing. So she is still not worth to eat 7ss in list. But I'm not sure what model in outcasts can replace her without any doubts. 

[Adran]

Did you enjoy the game? Did you feel the crew could score you points?

Lady justice is one of the most damaging models out there. So don't expect your master to do as much damage as her. On that noted, outcasts that regularly do 8 damage is a very small pool of models. I can only think of Ashes and dust and bishop and Johan without needing to use things like oathkeeper or I pay better to give free focus. Guild are faction that does high damage, so if that is what you are comparing to, you will keep finding outcasts come out second best. 

 

Healing in the game is a funny thing. It's much worse than damage, in that the librarian is one of the best healers in the game. But using it at the right time can be worth while. Hard to kill is one of those times it's will pay itself back in ap usage, because if you heal from 1 wound then they will need to use at least 1 extra ap to kill you. The ability to heal for a 0 from the trunk can be great for this, and the condition removal can be good or useless, depending on who you face. And you won't know that until your crew is picked. You may well find you don't want the trunk and have a better use for that 3 stones, but it is a cheap activation that is sometimes good. 

One of the things I like most about malifaux is that I build my crew once I know the mission and the terrain, so if the table is poor for sniper fire, then I don't take them. That said, as you are learning the game I would not worry too much about that, you want to get the rules and general tactics down first. And you aren't going to know when the sniper is bad until you try it on those tables. 

Some crews just attack wp and not df, so some times that high wp is good. But you don't have control when ( Unless they have some models that do one and some that do the other, and you can control what they face. )

The game can have a steep learning curve and if you are playing experience opponents then you are likely to lose as you learn. Don't worry about it, it's normal. As long as you feel you're getting better, then you're on the right path. 

[Zebo]

Von Schill is a Jack of All Trades, not a dedicated beater, so he can't face full beaters like Lady J by himself. But he can keep distance an shoot her, buff his crew with Oath o the Freikorps and reposition enemies/his own crew with Nythera Aftermath, he can weaken Lady J and then charge out to let his crew shoot her, and he can also finish a harmed Lady J. I use to play him im full support mode, with Oath of the Freikorps, Nythera Aftermath and I Pay Better. 

 

You must be carefull with the Specialist. He's a kind of slow short-ranged glass cannon, if you give your opponents a chance to kill him they're gonna do it, because of the damage he can cause. Don't play with him in the front. I like to keep him near Von Schill and in the late turn give him Oathkeeper and place him in a good spot. The last time my opponent was not carefull with his approaching, the Specialist killed 4 models in the first turn (6-8 damage plus burning 4-5).

 

The Librarian is a little bit squishy, but along with her healing she can hit really hard (2/4/5 with furious casting is not a joke). 

[Oblivion awar]

3 hours ago, Adran said:

Did you enjoy the game? Did you feel the crew could score you points?

Tbh, yes and no. I like how some of models operates. Especially Schill, Sue. May be trapper, because at least he can hit and do some consistent damage. Definitely thumb down about specialist. Still debating about librarian. May be I will swap one freikorpsman and specialist for 2 engineers for tanking potential and card drawing.

3 hours ago, Adran said:

The game can have a steep learning curve and if you are playing experience opponents then you are likely to lose as you learn.

Here is a trick. I do not want to repeat my experience from another wargame "You must lose about 30 times and then you could start winning". What I learn about malifaux, is that in addition you have to had almost all models from your faction to answer all potential threats and missions. Am I correct?

And thank you for answer. 

[Nikodemus]

5 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

What I learn about malifaux, is that in addition you have to had almost all models from your faction to answer all potential threats and missions. Am I correct?

I can't speak for Outcasts, but I own about 25-33% of TT models (I think it was 33% before last one or two waves). I don't need more. Looking at doing well competitively I could actually get rid of some rubbish models I got mainly for style points. If you're buying just to do better competitively, get the great models, OP models, those that do what others in their price range do but better. You can easily leave all those "bad" and "good enough" models on the shelf if you're worried about having to buy everything.

I look at all the models I still don't own from factions I play and just go "I don't need that, not that, not that, hey that might be fun to paint, not that, not that".

[katadder]

14 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

 

Here is a trick. I do not want to repeat my experience from another wargame "You must lose about 30 times and then you could start winning". What I learn about malifaux, is that in addition you have to had almost all models from your faction to answer all potential threats and missions. Am I correct?

And thank you for answer. 

Learning curves all depend on the player, if you pick it up quick enough and are experienced in other games you will not take as long to start winning (i came 2nd in my 2nd ever tourney).
As for needing all the models, no you dont. I have alot of outcasts but still dont have some of the models others say to pick (like nothing beast or hannah) but I am doing well this year in my year of outcasts.

[Ludvig]

@Oblivion awar

You don't need many models, if anything you need to cover certain roles to handle anything the game can throw at you. There are usually several ways and many different models that can do thesame thing. I've also seen players get super good after two or three games of malifaux but you need to learn to focus on what is important and "read" the board state. 

[Adran]

31 minutes ago, Oblivion awar said:

 

Here is a trick. I do not want to repeat my experience from another wargame "You must lose about 30 times and then you could start winning". What I learn about malifaux, is that in addition you have to had almost all models from your faction to answer all potential threats and missions. Am I correct?

And thank you for answer. 

I disagree in general. You don't need a huge collection, but you do need to own more than just your "army". The upside is that you still need a smaller collection to play than army scale games. 

Many people will agree with your view of the specialist, and he doesn't see a huge amount of play, fewer agree on the librarian, but I say go with what works for you. 

 

I would say if you don't want to lose games as you learn then you don't wa t to be playing a game where skill is the deciding factor, or you want to be playing with a group of new starters. I would say malifaux is a game that strongly rewards skilful play, which is why I expect new players to lose as they learn. 

[Oblivion awar]

Can't say I'm happy to hear it, but thank you for detailed explanation. Looks like I need to answer for more abstract question "is it game for me", rather then "what list should I use". And a big thanks to all who tried to provide any feedback/suggestions. It's definitely one of best and friendly community I've ever seen.

[Ludvig]

@Oblivion awar

 I'm sure you could ask to borrow another crew for a game or two. Around here we have so many crews that between us we can let a new player try almost any crew if they ask. If you have a very limited model selection like only a master box it helps if your opponent limits themselves in a similar way for a few games and/or picks a pool where your box has good game.

[Oblivion awar]

I'm visiting weekly gaming night with local players. And the model limit is not an issue. I enjoy collecting part of hobby in equal rate as game itself (and I'm a terrible painter 😀). The problem that all players have a huge experience and they can win me without even trying. And it's drives me crazy. I understand that playing with stronger opponent can help you skill to grow. But what I'm looking for is a combination of equal skills and pro players. Sometime each of us want to win, even by 1 or 2 VP.