Jump to content
TheEmptyRoad

Nicodem Players - Dealing with the nerf

Recommended Posts

How is the nerf going to affect how you play our dapper Necromancer?

I plan on using him more oriented toward buffing and summoning specifically what I need instead of just board-control cannon fodder. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, testing is indeed needed but it looks really too much nerfed, considering also that in he has never spammed in competitive playing.

Looking at it now I wonder whether it see still worth to play: as a summoner is not playble (you need a corpse, an high card of crow, an action to summon and at least another action to heal 2 damage...or you need another 8), as support master he negates - in a medium range  - only one condition (slow) and heal 2 damage. Concerning offensive, he is less effective than a good scheme runner (2-2-3).

Said that, it looks like if you want to play him now you must choose nurse, chiaki and the poison build...still being a lot slow...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He received the Leveticus treatment.

When you pick up a Malifaux master of the older generation, every rule on their card is written and balanced with every other rule on their card. If you change one then you have to be willing to change the others to rebalance them.

Without his positive flips Leveticus has too low a damage track for a master.

Without his ability to summon relatively healthy minions, Nicodem's role as a summoner ceases to be relevant.

Asura Rotten and Kentauri were the things that pulled Nicodem above the high median. Kentauri could have been made unsummonable, or requiring two corpse markers. Asura could have had some of her abilities toned down, perhaps not summoning a Mindless Zombie until the end of the turn, but no.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think he's irrelevant as a summoner. Sure, you're not going to summon 2 Kentauroi and a Hanged every turn but remember that since you're probably aiming at two summons a turn now, you've got corpses to spare for the full heal on Decay.

I think he'll be toned down, I think people will sometimes take Kirai when they want a summoner but by no means do I think he was nerfed to the point where he becomes irrelevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Freman said:

Asura Rotten and Kentauri were the things that pulled Nicodem above the high median. Kentauri could have been made unsummonable, or requiring two corpse markers. Asura could have had some of her abilities toned down, perhaps not summoning a Mindless Zombie until the end of the turn, but no.

That's it.

Those changes would have been much more appreciated and easy dto calibrate the entire game. Now Asura is still "overpower" and poor Nicodem quite useless.

"summon 2 Kentauroi and a Hanged every turn" it's indeed just a "paper case" or you have been really too much lucky (and would have note the cards to do any other things).

And you still can do that with molly now...even without corpses!

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Random aside, but when did the forum stop autoreplacing the word nerf? I miss the days when cuddle was so ubiquitous people just assumed it was just some sort of Malifaux slang for same. 

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was against errata. i expressed my impression about Nico and Sandeep nerfs, and my post was closed. After some time i had the opportunity to play against a competitive Nicodem player, and i had a second thoughts about Nico, enough to think that errata was really necessary. 

But rising at 1wd evocations it was really excessive! I also heard that in test-phases they would have wanted also give him -1ca!!! (hahahah haha ha 😭) this shows (in my opinion) that Wyrd don't do correct playtest, and sure enough as usual they give more important to complaints than results.

For my part, i 'll give a clear break to my purchases. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny that as one guy widely said all what was needed to be done was just to change Undertaker upgrade...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, rionero11 said:

"summon 2 Kentauroi and a Hanged every turn" it's indeed just a "paper case" or you have been really too much lucky (and would have note the cards to do any other things).

I don't think that's much of an exaggeration. It was the rare turn playing against Nicodem that he wasn't putting 3 of his bigger summons on the table. He still seemed to have a bigger and better hand than I did when he was done summoning as well since every time he summoned he drew a card.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They could just give the cost of 9 to Kentauri. They could rebalance Asura.

But they decided to cut Nicodem's summon strategy. The King of Dead is dead. All hail the King!

Since now I will play tournaments only with Reva. The Nicodem's box was just a waste of money.

  • Haha 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remind me again; how many games have you played with the changes? (Not aimed at anyone in particular. I just see a lot of "Nicodem is useless" without anyone actually putting him on the table to find out.)

If you listen to tournament reports you would hear people quite frequently summoning 2 Kentauroi and something else. Being a good player doesn't make you draw better cards so I don't think 2 Kentauroi is a "Paper case" at all.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, emiba said:

Remind me again; how many games have you played with the changes? (Not aimed at anyone in particular. I just see a lot of "Nicodem is useless" without anyone actually putting him on the table to find out.)

I speak for myself, i play with gremlins but i have some friends that they played only Nicodem. Certainly you can play him again with changes, but imho when it comes a tournament players now will choose Reva or Kirai. There are some things that i don't like anymore, but if we speaking about Nico nerfs, i don't accept 1 wd evocations! even i'm not Nico player.

So, now  Nico players, have to think. 1. Summoning 2. How can i healing my models? But Nico, evokes and supports pieces. The dreamer (other master with 1 wd evocations have a passive healing ability) But he can transform itself into chompy, have a tons of mobility, can support his pieces and go to make schemes. this just to make a comparison. (better if i don't do comparison, otherwise they will think to nerf also dreamer again)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

I speak for myself, i play with gremlins but i have some friends that they played only Nicodem. Certainly you can play him again with changes, but imho when it comes a tournament players now will choose Reva or Kirai. There are some things that i don't like anymore, but if we speaking about Nico nerfs, i don't accept 1 wd evocations! even i'm not Nico player.

 

If you don’t play it yourself, you’ve got nothing but theory crafting and other people experiences to go on.

If you own the models, there’s no reason to not keep and open mind and play a few games to see how it now works. We all know theory crafting is never representative of playing actual games.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't speak about what was playtested, but complaining about the lack of playtesting and then complaining about how the changes are too much without even trying them is a little hypocritical. 

I've not faced a top nico player for a while, but from what I've read, it's the engine that is the problem, so even completely removing asura and kentori wouldn't remove the problem. They may have arrived at the time the camels back broke, but I don't think they are the final straw. 

I'll be interested to see how people adapt once they have thought about it, and tried a few things. 

Already if you're finding the opponent is using big beatters, most of them are capable of one shotting the old summons.  Complaints that dreamer has an always on healing aura seem to forget that if he is summoning a lot, he doesn't have his aura. 

New nico needs to focus more on how he uses his resources. Do you try 3 summons and hope some survive, or use some of those corpses to heal the summons instead. He migth need fewer cards, but more corpses than before, and more care on forward planning. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last tournament in wich i partecipated, i had play against Nico, in two of three games. Often, but i believe happen to all, with our friends we exchange suggestions or lists on our masters. 6/7 months since plays always with same masters also as opponents, i don't believe they do not gurantee an opinion about that masters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I said I will certainly test...but considering that he has not gained anything but only lost a lot on different aspects, it seems harsh to say "oh wow he is indeed very good in the new version".It's not a new version, he is only a Nicodem that we have to see if he is still playble, at least in a fun made-mode, certainly not competitevely...considering also that he has win no major tournament and it has no special ability concerning strategy scoring/schemes ect.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, rionero11 said:

As I said I will certainly test...but considering that he has not gained anything but only lost a lot on different aspects, it seems harsh to say "oh wow he is indeed very good in the new version".It's not a new version, he is only a Nicodem that we have to see if he is still playble, at least in a fun made-mode, certainly not competitevely...considering also that he has win no major tournament and it has no special ability concerning strategy scoring/schemes ect.

I don't think anyone has said that. What they've said is he's not unplayable trash. He got nerfed - by definition he lost things, not gained. But the end result is still something that's worth using, though probably not in every situation like he was before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, rionero11 said:

As I said I will certainly test...but considering that he has not gained anything but only lost a lot on different aspects, it seems harsh to say "oh wow he is indeed very good in the new version".It's not a new version, he is only a Nicodem that we have to see if he is still playble, at least in a fun made-mode, certainly not competitevely...considering also that he has win no major tournament and it has no special ability concerning strategy scoring/schemes ect.

Undoubtedly he is worse that before, that's the whole idea. He had won several major tournements over the last year. He may still be competitive with the changes. I think the biggest problem for him now is the learning curve. It's going to be a big leap to get him from casual play to top tier competative play, where as I think the top nico players would still get good results with the new version. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He has win major tournements? Really? Reading the report it seams like he lately win just one big tournament (in England perhaps) and played by the best player, the one that win with a different master the year before...

3 minutes ago, Adran said:

Undoubtedly he is worse that before, that's the whole idea.

You're. What I mean is that he lost on summoning, on drawing and on is stat. And considering it was not so much above (as testyfy by major tournament) I expect that now it so much below all the other masters that it would be not even worth to test (and I play him since first edition, because he was my favorite master for the flaff and the horror idea)

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nicodem paid a lot just for a possibility of summoning. I mean Mortimer - he is about 25% of band's cost and does nothing but making corpse markers. If Nicodem wanted more, he hired the Emissary for 20% of the band's cost (and he is usefull model at the battlefield). Plus upgrades - about 50% of roster is about preparing the summon. Kirai, Molly, Asami, Dreamer - they need cash and cards (which Nicodem also needs), they don't really need more to start summoning (Dreamer can be improved by Mr. Tannen, but does he really need it?). It seems fair that Nicodem's summon was more powerfull - he paid a lot for it. Asura upped him a lot because she gave a corpse marker every turn for nothing AND she is usefull for all of the band AND she is cheap. She was broken, not Nicodem, and she is still broken while Nicodem now is our Ramos.

  • Agree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Nikshe said:

Nicodem paid a lot just for a possibility of summoning. I mean Mortimer - he is about 25% of band's cost and does nothing but making corpse markers. If Nicodem wanted more, he hired the Emissary for 20% of the band's cost (and he is usefull model at the battlefield). Plus upgrades - about 50% of roster is about preparing the summon. Kirai, Molly, Asami, Dreamer - they need cash and cards (which Nicodem also needs), they don't really need more to start summoning (Dreamer can be improved by Mr. Tannen, but does he really need it?). It seems fair that Nicodem's summon was more powerfull - he paid a lot for it. Asura upped him a lot because she gave a corpse marker every turn for nothing AND she is usefull for all of the band AND she is cheap. She was broken, not Nicodem, and she is still broken while Nicodem now is our Ramos.

Dreamer also requires a 10% outlay and the loss of his Limited upgrade slot to summon more than Alps. His base card cannot summon anything of worth aside from Daydreams. Dreamer also has the unfortunate Chompy situation, which other summoners don’t have to deal with.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could live better with those changes if after taking so much from him he had gotten something in exchange. we'll see how it goes.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

Dreamer also requires a 10% outlay and the loss of his Limited upgrade slot to summon more than Alps. His base card cannot summon anything of worth aside from Daydreams. Dreamer also has the unfortunate Chompy situation, which other summoners don’t have to deal with.

+ Dreamer summons comes in slow and dreamer doesn't give them + to melee and defense duel. Also, Dreamer doesn't have a Sebastian to produce stone out of thin air and to add insult to injury, daydream cuddle made stone resources much more precious to Dreamer (for whom stones can be also quite important for prevention flip, 6w incorporeal is often not quite as resilient as was 14 with impossible to wound). Moreover, unless you take a wonky crew (hitting your own stuff with blood wretch or whatnot), Dreamer couldn't even dream of drawing as many card as Nicodem was (and the crew Nicodem had to take was decent...). So comparing old or new Nico to Dreamer: unfair!

In any case, when I first read the errata I though it might be a bit ham fisted but well, time will tell if Nico has been 'Collette-d' (but really i'm not sure we are there). 

  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It could have been something like "increase the starting wounds by an amount equal to the amount that this action's final duel total exceeded the TN of this action" 

You could spent higher cards to summon cheaper models less wounded. 

  • Like 4
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×