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July 2018 Errata

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Emissary's pretty good outside the summon too, I hear. Just saying Ramos is definitely not without a cost, and that 25ss of prep is definitely not mandatory on Nico.

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1 hour ago, Nikshe said:

One thing you missed: Nicodem paid about 25 soulstones for Mortimer and the Emissary. First one just digs, second is more useful but he needs to be in 12" from Nicodem to create corpse marker every turn, so he will not fully translate his APs into damage/VP. That's 25 SS for preparing of summoning.

For 25 SS Ramos can buy Howard and build the heavy alpha-strike and get some change. So it should be comparison of the Masters with 25 SS of their bands, like Dreamer with Teddy and Mr. Graves versus Nicodem with Mortimer and the Carrion Emmisary.

Mortimer 9ss

Emissary 10ss

9+10=25??

I missed something, I supose. 

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1 hour ago, Nikshe said:

Sorry, double post. 

I use it to say that it's a shame that they don't give us the new profile of Von Schill with Mechanichal arm and leg and a f*****g shotgun. 

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2 hours ago, Zebo said:

Mortimer 9ss

Emissary 10ss

9+10=25??

I missed something, I supose. 

You want Corpse bloat and My favorite shovel on Mortimer, each costing 2 ss if I remember correctly. So not 25 but 23.

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6 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

Steam Arachnids are EXTREMELY good scheme runners. They can also be used to decrease enemy Df and/or to make Arachnid Swarms, which then get fully healed by the way.

What makes them "EXTREMELY good"? Is it the Wk5, getting 2AP an activation, and being able to Interact? I guess if you play with a lot of Severe terrain, Unimpeded might be nice but I've rarely had it matter.  

They are almost as good a scheme runner as Canine Remains are (if there's a lot of severe terrain, the spiders could catch up with the dead doggies) . The Canine Remains also have a -Df ability that is easier to use than the spider's. 

The spiders aren't anywhere near as good as a Crooligan or a Necropunk when it comes to scheme running. 

Getting an Arachnid Swarm on the board can be a pain in the butt. It's almost like having a third scheme that you are trying to complete. I only ever bother with it when I really need to make scheme markers go away.  


 

 

6 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

Whereas Nicodem's friends need to create corpse markers every turn. Kind of a big difference IMO.


Ramos definitely has his upsides, but in general I've found that if I'm not providing scrap markers for him he isn't going to get any. It seems like when I play against Nico, there are more corpse markers on the table by round three than will likely get used in the game. Nico's opponents are also usually generous enough to bring models that drop corpse markers for him to use when they die. It seems like Nico's hired crew is still making corpse markers more for the card draw in the second half of the game than they are for the actual markers. The surplus of corpse markers will probably dry up a bit after the errata since Nico will need the corpses for summoning.

I do think the easy access to corpse markers from Resser crews and Nico's ability to put a lot of corpse markers to use each turn is partly to blame for this nerf. If Nico brought his corpse and card draw engine crew the bottleneck on his summoning became his own AP. 
 

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If we're gonna say that you need your engine to pump out fresh corpses every turn, we're assuming the summons are still alive (or killed by Lady Justice or something else weird like the Forest Reclaims), and so, one of Nico's 1st turn AP has turned into 10 AP, and on a Hanged, or Punk Zombie, that's absurdly deadly. Also, yeah, he pays a bunch for the engine, but if he gets three good summons in even just one turn, that's almost completely compensated, and that's assuming that Carrion hits nothing with its attack, and the shards don't impact your opponent's positioning at all.

Obviously, 1 wound or 5 wounds, summons die, so new corpses will be generated without digging. Kentauroi drop two. Zombies still get buffed by Carrion and Asura. Asura still generates a zombie a turn without essentially any effort, while either debuffing the enemy, or doing damage, and giving your Zombies bonkers attacks (with +flips from Nico, and the ability to reposition before attacking because they're not slow). So, they don't give you cards any more. Oh well, that was too good. Punk Zombies still only need to be healed a little to be an inordinate pain to remove.

I kind of agree that the loss of ItW might have been a tiny bit too much. But at the same time, Sandeep retains the ability to do just about everything. Good attacks, teleport, crew buffing, interact shenanigans, 4 AP per turn, summoning. Making him slightly easier to kill is probably not the end of the world.

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Nico nerf went too far, in my ophinion. Nerfing undertaker and wounds would be enough. But summoning in 1 hp - ruined him as summoning master. Pretty sure, noone will play him now. Is that your lore-connection with his death from Lady J? :(

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16 hours ago, whodares said:

I've been advocating a Nicodem nerf and so far I'm fairly happy with how he was treated. He's still strong, but not instawin anymore. He's more in line with other summoners now in actually requiring resources (aka hand, stones and opportunity) instead of just spamming summons and ending with more cards afterwards.

 

I've been seeing some very interesting discussions regarding his identity vs The Dreamer due to both having 1 Wound summoning now. Certain people claim Dreamer is now better, but I personally believe Nicodem is still the stronger of the 2 when it comes to playing the summoning game. I would like to add that this is not based on any game experience against the new Nicodem, but just gut feeling and some analysis on how he was impacted by the changes.

 

Let's start with The Dreamer. This allows us to get the comparison baseline.

  • Needs a 5 stone upgrade to be allowed into the actual summoning game.
  • Does not need markers for summoning
  • 1 wound summons are not that much of a problem thanks to the healing aura and a choice on his Empty Night action. The Stitches Trigger does require having a specific suit flipped/in hand in order to heal, but a 4 + suit should be doable.
  • Summons come in slow, but Empty Night can work around this in 2 ways: default 6" push + 1AP Ml action or a suited Trigger for Fast. You could also spend a stone on the actual summoning action to remove the slow.
  • Pleasant Dreams gives an AOE heal depending on how well you've been managing his summoning and the corresponding condition. Getting a 3 AOE heal does not happen often, it will usually be 1-2.
  • A defensive Trigger to brush off attacks to nearby Nightmare models to compensate for his low Df and abysmal (6) Wounds
  • Incorporeal so he doesn't die from a breeze as soon as a melee model comes close. Very strong against pure Ml attacks, doesn't work against anything else.
  • Lord Chompy Bits can be both a blessing and a curse and could really mess up a game plan if the player is forced to pop him out when not ideal.
  • Upgrade let's him use 1 AP to hand out Playtime, a condition that gives you cards when that model deals damage
  • Decent summoning pool

 

Nicodem

  • Does not need a 5 stone upgrade
  • Needs corpse markers for summoning
  • 1 wound summons also not a problem when taking a specific upgrade (forgot the name) and a 1 AP blast heal.
  • No slow summons
  • No AOE heal, but his blast heal makes up for this
  • Impossible to Wound is harder to bypass than Incorporeal
  • No defensive Trigger, but more than double the Wounds of Dreamer.
  • gives + flips to attacks and defense duels within 6"
  • Upgrade gives him card draw when any Undead is killed in his vicinity
  • Awesome summoning pool

 

I personally value Nicodem higher due to having a better summoning pool, better survivability and a bigger card pool. He is still much better in playing the attrition game than The Dreamer and I doubt any other Master will be better at it than Nicodem. Kirai is a contender, but she is also already stellar at summoning.

 

 

Something I haven't seen mentioned is the impact the 1 Wound summons have on his Kentauroi summoning. Nico can still trade 1 AP and a card for a Kentauroi charge, but they will die after their charge unless they healed, either from Nicodem or their own (0) action. They can't just charge, deal damage AND tie up a model all for the cost of 1 AP anymore and this seems fair to me. I still have problems with a backline summoner being able to alpha you, but I will wait and see how severely the nerf has impacted that type of Nicodem playstyle.

All-in-all I would say Nicodem is still a competitive master who can shine in a lot of situations. He's just not the best anymore in any given situation.

One thing you missed on removing slow from summons for dreamer. His :ToS-Tome: trigger is condition removal+recast, meaning he can generate up to 4ap (1 ap from the free empty night, 1 ap from the loss of slow, 2 ap for the 6" push+Ml attack on default empty night).

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51 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

One thing you missed on removing slow from summons for dreamer. His :ToS-Tome: trigger is condition removal+recast, meaning he can generate up to 4ap (1 ap from the free empty night, 1 ap from the loss of slow, 2 ap for the 6" push+Ml attack on default empty night).

If you're counting default empty night as two AP then he's generating 3 AP on the summon for his one. The extra action he gets himself basically just means meeting an extra TN to get that 3 AP.

In general I don't think there's much point exhaustively comparing new Nico to other summoners on paper. You'll get a much better feeling for how the changes have affected him with a couple of games.

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I'm a little torn on these. Something needed to get done; when so many feel the game is turning into Sandeep vs. Nico vs. Autoloss it's a problem, even if not technically correct. I don't have any issues with Sandeep's nerfs, seems balanced to me (but we'll see), but I'm a little more uncertain about Nico.

Don't get me wrong, I think he should still be fine, and these changes quite possibly reflects how he should've been from the start: versatile summoned, but needs resources (card draw and all for healing). My issue is that the two biggest hits are to parts of him that have beevln there all along. Undertaker always felt a little exploitive, but it's been integral to Nico throughout M2e. The same with easy access to useful summons without the need for further support. What has been pushing Nico over the top IMHO have been Asura and Kentauroi plugging the balancing gaps in his playstyle.

When M2e rolled around we were presented with a design philosophy that I really liked: models will change, but the feel should not if at all possible. For Nico I feel this is a departure from that philosophy. It's not the first, Levi's errata was similar, but I don't think the Levi errata is a great yardstick for bringing down op masters (I've played him quite a bit, and I think he needed the change. But he feels totally different, and if you liked Levi's old playstyle chances are you might not like heis new and vica versa.).

I'm not  really negative because I don't have any obviously better solutions, but a little sad that Wyrd couldn't find a solution not changing his playstyle. I know some (Fetid Strumpet amongst others) have pointed out that he has been flawed from the outset because of his wife summoning keyword and easy access to resources (getting more cards the more he summons). I don't disagree, and if this had been changed before the initial release I'd all in favour. But a little bummed about this being changed through errata so long in... 😕

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4 hours ago, tmod said:

his wife summoning

Is that the summon that auto ends the game and all players are ejected from the room?

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17 minutes ago, Kogan Style said:

Is that the summon that auto ends the game and all players are ejected from the room?

Yeah, that's obviously op...

Should be "wide", but plenty more room for fun in that one... 😉

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33 minutes ago, Kogan Style said:

Is that the summon that auto ends the game and all players are ejected from the room?

AKA double black joker🤣

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38 minutes ago, Kogan Style said:

Is that the summon that auto ends the game and all players are ejected from the room?

That’s not how that w—

*visual: setting up game table for Malifaux, husband leaves the hobby room citing need to paint models, no time to play*

...that’s totally how that works. 😕

Edited by Gnomezilla
I played Lucius against him, Lucius isn’t that NPE, is he?...
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What makes them "EXTREMELY good"? Is it the Wk5, getting 2AP an activation, and being able to Interact? I guess if you play with a lot of Severe terrain, Unimpeded might be nice but I've rarely had it matter.  

That, plus Df 6 Wp 6 (which I don't understand they have.) Top notch stats.

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On 7/3/2018 at 3:07 PM, Erik1978 said:

Yeah because Joss and steamfitters are worthless for the rest of the game. ;)

It's only turn 1 Joss might hand out a punch or two, against an electric creation or mobile toolkit. Then you'll have all the scrap markers you'll need for the rest of the game. (Those 2 scrap markers + steam arachnids dying throughout the game, in case you were wondering).

 Whereas Nicodem's friends need to create corpse markers every turn. Kind of a big difference IMO.

Steam Arachnids are EXTREMELY good scheme runners. They can also be used to decrease enemy Df and/or to make Arachnid Swarms, which then get fully healed by the way.

 

They are decent scheme runners, but I think you overestimate them. Canine remains are faster have the better -df ability, Necropunks leap and are df 5 HtW HtK, Crooligans are df 6 wp 5 and just flat out better scheme runners with their teleport. I don't think you can claim that Ramos can summon anything better than what Nico brings to the table. 

As for generating scrap markers I think you have it backwards. If I'm not actively making scrap I often don't have something within 6" of Ramos to summon off of, and Arcanists don't have a big mechanical taxi like the Kentauroi to move him around (maybe in wave 6?). Yes spiders die, but they are usually up the board, and if you swarm them together, it takes longer. There are also several abilities that require sacrificing them, so no scrap there. Unless you get lucky and face up against a construct heavy crew, your opponent is unlikely to be giving up much scrap you can use. But you know what the vast majority of models are? Living or Undead, and drop corpse markers all over the place

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6 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

That, plus Df 6 Wp 6 (which I don't understand they have.) Top notch stats.

 

They’ve got an average speed and don’t have any movement, interact, or scheme marker tricks. Without something like that, I fail to see how something is an “EXTREMELY good” scheme runner.

 

The spiders are durable enough that you need to determine whether they are worth the trouble to deal with. That’s pretty much their whole schtick. Spiders make decent scheme runners because they are plentiful and can often take more effort than it’s worth to kill them. If they were “EXTREMELY good” you’d see them as a staple hire in other Arcanist crews like you do with Necropunks in Resser crews.

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20 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Wait... Sacrified models don't drop corpse/scrap markers? 

Yes, they don't.

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They’ve got an average speed and don’t have any movement, interact, or scheme marker tricks. Without something like that, I fail to see how something is an “EXTREMELY good” scheme runner.

Fair enough, let's settle for "good" then. :)

Keep in mind you get 2-3 every turn, that kind of helps IMO. Are they close to dying, paralyzed, burning, poisoned: presto, you make a swarm instead.

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3 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

Fair enough, let's settle for "good" then. :)

Keep in mind you get 2-3 every turn, that kind of helps IMO. Are they close to dying, paralyzed, burning, poisoned: presto, you make a swarm instead.

You generally need to know that you want to make a swarm early enough in the turn that two of the three spiders that go into making the swarm haven’t been activated yet.

 

We’ve derailed this thread quite a bit. Ramos definitely has good things about him and his summons. I think the comparisons started being made to illustrate that Nico still has a lot going for him that other summoners don’t. The variety of his summons, his buffs, and ability to heal models.

The nerfs will probably change the way Nico plays. Maybe he’ll need to stop filling his crew with a corpse and card draw engine and start hiring models that he can support and supplement with summons. Even if the Nico nerfs were too rough and make him non-competitve, at least Ressers have some other strong master to pick up the slack. If someone had all of Nico’s summons and corpse and card draw engine models then they probably have most of what they need to field other masters.

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Why do minis companies make armies weaker to fix rules that should have been playtested in the first place.

They should make the other armies better instead.  No one wants to work on a army/crew only to get it they way they want and have it

nerfed. No one minds having their army improved. It is only logical. Why do the companies not first playtest and second when mistakes are

made why not improve the other armies instead. Plus they seem to do this on a yearly basis. Get the game right from the start. Learn from

board game companies. They play test and get it right before release. Even if they don't they fix it in one pass. This is madness. You may argue

that I am upset because I play one of the nerfed masters. Perhaps, but think about it would you like it if it happened to your favorite master.

Think of the industry as a whole. It makes more sense to improve what is weak instead of making what is strong weak.  Think of the time and

planning with all the painting and tweaking put in by players only to have the army/crew cut back. Like I said no one likes going back to the

drawing board after a nerf. But no one minds an improvement to their army/crew.  I already know how this will be responded to. The national

tournament elites will praise the nerf. The casual player that honed his crew will be pushed in the back ground. Asked to be silent. But I felt

compelled to express my opinion. Even though I will be shouted down.

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Playtesting definitely does happen. Some things get through the cracks though, and I don't think anyone can say Nico in wave 1 had the same power level he did a week ago.

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