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July 2018 Errata

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24 minutes ago, Clement said:

Nico needs an 8 to make it work or he doesn't hit the TN.  Also putting 2 wounds into low df models I'd argue is not as good as the higher Df stuff Ramos has around.  Also that upgrades comes with accomplice on it.  Let's not pretend you're buying it for the healing.

And make 3 models from a single corpse?  Nico would do that any day of the week.

It's like they're different styles of support/summon.   Ramos throws more and more spiders at you, blowing up the ones he doesn't need.  Healing isn't something he does for the stuff he summons.

My bad. I missed the TN. An 8 or higher of any suit is still easier to hit than a 3 of a specifc suit.

You’d really trade Nico’s summoning to be able to get 3 Canine Remains off a single corpse marker once a turn (assuming you don’t flip the Black Joker) instead of being able to summon stuff like Belles, Punk Zombies, and Kentauroi? You only get the three if you spend a stone and have a high card of the right suit.

The Combat Mechanic heal is horrible. Accomplice is the best thing about that card and it’s not worth 2SS and a slot. Especially with all the other things Ramos needs to spend slots and stones on.

If most Resser undead models weren’t Hard to Wound, I think that Decay would be too good. It’s a damaging blast that you are targetting at typically low Df models that get plus flips to defense. This is going to give them lowish duel totals if they don’t relent. They not only don’t take damage from the attack but they are healed by it.

My point was that Nico has access to a great heal even if it isn’t doing blast damage or healing. Corpse markers are relatively easy to come by. 

I do think that the Nico nerfs probably went to far. Dropping his Wounds and “fixing” Undertaker probably would have been more than enough. I just think that complants about Decay are misplaced.

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So....

We do realise we are not nerfing the real issue here or?

I can see the argument behind nerfing nicodems summoning, since wave 2 I said a modell with such a wide pool limits design space and will get broken if a mistake is made.... now the mistake is obviously Kentaus which are by the way also massively broken with several other resser masters, and make others unnecessary they should get hammerd, and some changes to his summon pool should be done, or his mechanic, but not the master made unplayable. Charmwarders now autokill his summons.... just saying.

 

Issues like that can arise with allrounder masters... sandeep did need his impossible to wound nerf his cast or give it a gun icon. 

Now the thing is this two just were holding back outcasts. Vics have issues... if a onetrick dmg master cna be soloed in a tournament it has issues... the issue is called webster btw, she also breaks several outcast master. However at least they can be dealed with, but with those nerfs without one for plague pits going side by side with it, we now life in Hamelin country... don´t get me started on how terribly executed the storm nerf was on misaki, which allows this spam small shit allrounder summoners to shine even more, and lets her have two useless limited upgrades.... and let me tell you, to be useless in a faction where it can be changed it for basically free by a terracotta, an upgrade needs to really really suck hard... looking at you too disguised...

 

 

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3 hours ago, Wolfpact said:

Congratulations Wyrd, that Nico nerf cost you my business going forward, at least where Malifaux is concerned. Ridiculously overdone, and since Ressers were the only faction I felt inclined to expand on and you just gutted my only Resser Master (I play Tara as Outcast).... I'm voting no-confidence with my wallet.

 

Doesn't do wonders for my faith in TOS, either.

lol 

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I think I like both of these. We'll have to see how they look on the table. The changes don't seem to alter the playstyle of either master much, which is a good thing. Sandeep's changes are a bit more straightforward and a minor power reduction overall. I think those are sensible. 

The changes to Nico might be, as many others have noted, slightly misplaced in the sense that it seems the surrounding models (Asura, Kentauroi) may be more of the culprits. Just making changes to Nico is a bit easier though. 

We'll see! 

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Just now, Trample said:

The changes to Nico might be, as many others have noted, slightly misplaced in the sense that it seems the surrounding models (Asura, Kentauroi) may be more of the culprits. Just making changes to Nico is a bit easier though. 

We'll see! 

On the upside, it doesn't detract from the value of those models for other masters. Kentauroi are still good chargers and taxis. Asura is still great for activation control and her ability to pass around a better Ml attack. Neither can now be used in the way they had been to enable Nicodem's summoning engine shenanigans or a low-cost, low-risk alpha strike.

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As a Sandeep player I'm going to have to wholeheartedly agree with his nerf. He was far to oppressive and safe. 

Can't speak so much for nico. I have never played against one. But I like to imagine it will move my Reva up in the list a bit. So again I'm okay with it.

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Funny thing for me is the last couple times I brought out Nico he did not use re-animator much as I took him without most of his corpse generation.  He primarily gave Fast to models and topped off a few models.  I think I summoned two models for two of the games and three for the others *Mostly replacing my forces as they fell though on at least two games a Canine Remains dug up a bone first turn*.  Still I will have to give him a few more whirls now to see just how different he feels as his summoning is not as safe *Needs more planning and less target of opportunity*.  I will reserve final judgement till then.

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I suspect that Nicodem has just received the Leveticus treatment.

Leveticus was designed around the idea that you'd be burning his wounds and your hand to do a bunch of low but consistent damage. Take away that mechanic and suddenly his damage track is too low for a master.

Nicodem is meant to be a support summoner, a bit like Dreamer, but he has no passive healing effect so one wound summons will just be chaff, and he probably won't have the resources to heal. If he had a passive healing aura, and could summon Undead Enforcers then the investment might be worthwhile... but probably not as it stands.

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I personally feel that the changes are a little heavy handed but I have no doubt I can work around this.

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I'm just glad Gremlins got spared this time :D
but on Topic: while I have never played against Nicodem, I always toyed with the idea starting ressers as 2nd faction and thus I always contemplated playing Nico. I still do.

The Nerfs, while being rather drastic, sound plausible to me.

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What is wee worrying is that through we have the situation when through not-well designed series of new models/ups some masters are elevated to the god-tier and then with errata they are hacked to the so-so tier... Don't think there should be a case for such situation in any way.

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Von Schill's gonna love to target practice with the new Nicodem summons. 

Maybe a little bit too much hard to start with only 1 wound, time would tell. 

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I don't think this is a bad thing at all personally. Summoning hard to kill minions reasonably easily made it a little unbalanced. Summoning also isn't the only thing he does. Other masters summon a little easier i'd say, but where Nico shines and still does, is his buffing abilities IN ADDITION TO the summons. Now Nico players can't just summon to get them a win, they will have to become better balanced players to use his other abilities. The good players will find new ways to play Nico, poorer ones will just moan. 

It might also be nice to see other resser masters played now. 

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22 minutes ago, SurreyLee said:

It might also be nice to see other resser masters played now.  

Do you think that this changes, will increase Seamus or Molly players in tournaments?

And for Sandeep?

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18 hours ago, Erik1978 said:

Im not sure it had to take 2 YEARS before Sandeep got that nerf. It was quite obvious 12 months ago, og even 18 months ago.

But I like the changes!

Could have reduced Ironsides' Cache of 5 IMO. Why she has 5 even after she has been given the built in Tome on Df and 2 amazing upgrades is beyond me. Meanwhile, Von Schill still has 1. :D  

Keep it up, Wyrd!

I still feel that outcasts have only 1 master that is competitively viable ( Hamelin) tara is now better with the new upgrades but the rest of the outcast crew seems to be lacking, I think changing the sister key word to something else would benefit them and wouldn't collide with the lore. Lets not forget Parker and the still on going challenge to win a proper tournament with that master.

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I think that Nico nerf is kinda overtough, i mean why Wyrd just dont do an undertaker draw a cards when is killing not sacrifising , and 1-wound Summon are u seriously!? I mean Dreamer has kinda that but he has an aura which is heal anyone who activates inside it. 
What is Nico has, nothing! Of course u can say that he has Patchwork trigger but it requires an additional CP for that, and it prevents only 2 wounds!!!!!!!2 wounds CARL!!!!!!
Or why you just dont do Kentauroi an enforcer or make higher its Soulstone Cost , but no. We will gonna just kill a Ress Leader Model with that nerf 
I can understand every nerf except That stuff with Summon and Non-peon draw
Like if you are Agree with this. 

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I've been advocating a Nicodem nerf and so far I'm fairly happy with how he was treated. He's still strong, but not instawin anymore. He's more in line with other summoners now in actually requiring resources (aka hand, stones and opportunity) instead of just spamming summons and ending with more cards afterwards.

 

I've been seeing some very interesting discussions regarding his identity vs The Dreamer due to both having 1 Wound summoning now. Certain people claim Dreamer is now better, but I personally believe Nicodem is still the stronger of the 2 when it comes to playing the summoning game. I would like to add that this is not based on any game experience against the new Nicodem, but just gut feeling and some analysis on how he was impacted by the changes.

 

Let's start with The Dreamer. This allows us to get the comparison baseline.

  • Needs a 5 stone upgrade to be allowed into the actual summoning game.
  • Does not need markers for summoning
  • 1 wound summons are not that much of a problem thanks to the healing aura and a choice on his Empty Night action. The Stitches Trigger does require having a specific suit flipped/in hand in order to heal, but a 4 + suit should be doable.
  • Summons come in slow, but Empty Night can work around this in 2 ways: default 6" push + 1AP Ml action or a suited Trigger for Fast. You could also spend a stone on the actual summoning action to remove the slow.
  • Pleasant Dreams gives an AOE heal depending on how well you've been managing his summoning and the corresponding condition. Getting a 3 AOE heal does not happen often, it will usually be 1-2.
  • A defensive Trigger to brush off attacks to nearby Nightmare models to compensate for his low Df and abysmal (6) Wounds
  • Incorporeal so he doesn't die from a breeze as soon as a melee model comes close. Very strong against pure Ml attacks, doesn't work against anything else.
  • Lord Chompy Bits can be both a blessing and a curse and could really mess up a game plan if the player is forced to pop him out when not ideal.
  • Upgrade let's him use 1 AP to hand out Playtime, a condition that gives you cards when that model deals damage
  • Decent summoning pool

 

Nicodem

  • Does not need a 5 stone upgrade
  • Needs corpse markers for summoning
  • 1 wound summons also not a problem when taking a specific upgrade (forgot the name) and a 1 AP blast heal.
  • No slow summons
  • No AOE heal, but his blast heal makes up for this
  • Impossible to Wound is harder to bypass than Incorporeal
  • No defensive Trigger, but more than double the Wounds of Dreamer.
  • gives + flips to attacks and defense duels within 6"
  • Upgrade gives him card draw when any Undead is killed in his vicinity
  • Awesome summoning pool

 

I personally value Nicodem higher due to having a better summoning pool, better survivability and a bigger card pool. He is still much better in playing the attrition game than The Dreamer and I doubt any other Master will be better at it than Nicodem. Kirai is a contender, but she is also already stellar at summoning.

 

 

Something I haven't seen mentioned is the impact the 1 Wound summons have on his Kentauroi summoning. Nico can still trade 1 AP and a card for a Kentauroi charge, but they will die after their charge unless they healed, either from Nicodem or their own (0) action. They can't just charge, deal damage AND tie up a model all for the cost of 1 AP anymore and this seems fair to me. I still have problems with a backline summoner being able to alpha you, but I will wait and see how severely the nerf has impacted that type of Nicodem playstyle.

All-in-all I would say Nicodem is still a competitive master who can shine in a lot of situations. He's just not the best anymore in any given situation.

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3 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

Do you think that this changes, will increase Seamus or Molly players in tournaments?

And for Sandeep?

Seamus, no uptick in games played.

Molly, minor uptick in playing.

Kirai, massive increase in playing.

Reva, minor to moderate uptick in playing.

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1 hour ago, whodares said:

I still have problems with a backline summoner being able to alpha you

This. I have a very real problem with a summoner being able to alpha you, with the models he just summoned. Who incidentally are fast instead of slow, and have :+flipif they brought Nico with them.

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Continuing comparisons, lets take Ramos as an example, because he does seem to be the best direct comparison. Sure, he can summon 3 models off a single scrap. But to do so, you need an 11:ToS-Tome: or higher, and a soulstone. It is also once per turn, so a black joker can pretty much ruin your day. If Nico black jokers, he can just try again. If Ramos summons 3 spiders, they come in at 2 wds instead of one. I will admit, df6 and armor 1 makes them more durable, but Ramos has no healing unless you bring Combat Mechanic (its 2 stones and bad), or he hires a Silent One (you wont) or the Malifaux Child (needs a 7:ToS-Ram:), and certainly no AoE healing unless he hires a 5 stone automaton and blows it up. As a support master, in order to "match" Nico's positives and healing you need 6 stones across 3 upgrades, and still need to use a 1 action and an 8 for the df. There is nothing Ramos can do to cause immunity to slow, let alone making them fast in the same activation. I'm wondering if support Nico will have legs, considering on paper it is so damn good

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One thing you missed: Nicodem paid about 25 soulstones for Mortimer and the Emissary. First one just digs, second is more useful but he needs to be in 12" from Nicodem to create corpse marker every turn, so he will not fully translate his APs into damage/VP. That's 25 SS for preparing of summoning.

For 25 SS Ramos can buy Howard and build the heavy alpha-strike and get some change. So it should be comparison of the Masters with 25 SS of their bands, like Dreamer with Teddy and Mr. Graves versus Nicodem with Mortimer and the Carrion Emmisary.

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31 minutes ago, Nikshe said:

One thing you missed: Nicodem paid about 25 soulstones for Mortimer and the Emissary. First one just digs, second is more useful but he needs to be in 12" from Nicodem to create corpse marker every turn, so he will not fully translate his APs into damage/VP. That's 25 SS for preparing of summoning.

Only one of those is required to summon. Plus, Ramos also has to pay to prep for summoning. Joss + Toolkit is a 13ss investment and requires you kill a model, or if you bring a Steamfitter it's 6ss and two cards from your hand each turn you don't have other Scrap.

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Yeah because Joss and steamfitters are worthless for the rest of the game. ;)

It's only turn 1 Joss might hand out a punch or two, against an electric creation or mobile toolkit. Then you'll have all the scrap markers you'll need for the rest of the game. (Those 2 scrap markers + steam arachnids dying throughout the game, in case you were wondering).

 Whereas Nicodem's friends need to create corpse markers every turn. Kind of a big difference IMO.

Steam Arachnids are EXTREMELY good scheme runners. They can also be used to decrease enemy Df and/or to make Arachnid Swarms, which then get fully healed by the way.

 

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