Our worst models

[Seadhna]

5 minutes ago, Franchute said:

how does she?

SS prevention and negatives to damage. 

She also has very high Wp which is key in certain matchups

[MalifauxDave]

12 hours ago, Seadhna said:

she can tank

So can a freikormann, esp consider reference the field guide can auto give him the duck and weave trigger. What incentive does anyone have to just lock it down with anything defense 5 or greater? 
You can tank all you want, but that doesn't mean you are going to be targeted. She has the same problem the Whiskey Golem used to have, only that at least the Golem has a melee 6 attack. 

[katadder]

8 hours ago, Seadhna said:

Well I’ve won tournament games at top tables using both, so yeah, probably worst in faction. 

lol Russian Meta, doubt you would use either anywhere else and certainly not top table with them

[Adran]

2 hours ago, katadder said:

lol Russian Meta, doubt you would use either anywhere else and certainly not top table with them

Meta differs but I imagine if you can get a Parker style you're happy with he could threaten top tables. After all lots of people said the same about Mei Feng and you still do well with her. 

[Seadhna]

4 hours ago, katadder said:

lol Russian Meta, doubt you would use either anywhere else and certainly not top table with them

Do you know a lot about Russian meta and its competitiveness?

Have you played many games with Parker?

Hope we meet at ITC next year, I’ll show you some style. 

[Seadhna]

6 hours ago, MalifauxDave said:

So can a freikormann, esp consider reference the field guide can auto give him the duck and weave trigger. What incentive does anyone have to just lock it down with anything defense 5 or greater? 
You can tank all you want, but that doesn't mean you are going to be targeted. She has the same problem the Whiskey Golem used to have, only that at least the Golem has a melee 6 attack. 

If that something is taking symbols left and right, or placing claim markers, or making a large portion of the board severe, or engages shooters, or hits low Df models with a 3/5/7 track. 

[katadder]

1 hour ago, Seadhna said:

Do you know a lot about Russian meta and its competitiveness?

Have you played many games with Parker?

Hope we meet at ITC next year, I’ll show you some style. 

no i dont, always cool to play new people though.

have only played parker once and that in a friendly, probably because most people dont rate him as outcasts generally have better masters (he is considered the worst one i believe). he did get off to an early lead with scheme marker shenanigans but then died very quickly with no issues after that for me. would be good to play against a veteran parker player but still dont see what he brings over other masters or to get him to top table.

[Seadhna]

40 minutes ago, katadder said:

no i dont, always cool to play new people though.

have only played parker once and that in a friendly, probably because most people dont rate him as outcasts generally have better masters (he is considered the worst one i believe). he did get off to an early lead with scheme marker shenanigans but then died very quickly with no issues after that for me. would be good to play against a veteran parker player but still dont see what he brings over other masters or to get him to top table.

I've stated this multiple times, but by some otherworldly magic he just happens to work in Wave 5 with the Emissary upgrade.

His thing is a perfect midrange game: you put out any of the 9-10ss henchmen, push them into position Turn 1 and make them immovable by spending every stone on negatives to damage and prevention. So you get powerful models that don't die, you're strong vs alpha strikes, and Parker himself can do a powerful Hail Mary turn where he attacks 4 times for a total of 10 damage (3x min 2, 1x min 4). Among things that reliably kill Parker himself are Reva (then again she has to mow through 14 Wd, realistically only doing about 10 per activation) and LJ with a joker in hand.

He struggles a lot against activation control and summoning, but is in no way our weakest master (that's the Von Schill slot for sure, he's just the same Parker who can't protect his henchmen; Misaki is also strictly worse than both Parker and Viks while being relatively more killy than the former).

[katadder]

Maybe not seeing it but df6 with no defensive tech dies easily (misaki always did before Marlena arrived and she has positives).

Willing to be proved wrong but with the new upgrade I would put von Schill ahead of Parker and I class misaki higher too

 

[Seadhna]

1 hour ago, katadder said:

Maybe not seeing it but df6 with no defensive tech dies easily (misaki always did before Marlena arrived and she has positives).

Willing to be proved wrong but with the new upgrade I would put von Schill ahead of Parker and I class misaki higher too

 

Hidden still plate is reduce by 2, human shield is pass to a friend. And then there’s Marlena too and Doc’s heal  

Thing is, he’s nowhere near Seamus, but it takes a full turn of wailing on him to take him down completely

Schill with Engineer is fun, but his low cache makes him too strained on resources. 

Misaki just doesn’t do anything for the crew and is not killy enough without positives to damage. 

[MalifauxDave]

3 hours ago, Seadhna said:

If that something is taking symbols left and right, or placing claim markers, or making a large portion of the board severe, or engages shooters, or hits low Df models with a 3/5/7 track. 

4 isn't "a large portion of the board". 
Paying 9ss for a scheme runner who is only effective against low DF models sounds awful. I will grant that trying to kill Zako is an exercise in futility, if only because its not worth the AP to kill. 

[Zebo]

4 radius plus Ama's mini is almost 10" diameter, it feels to me like a large portion of the board. 

I have not played with/against her anyway, and while I'm not totally sold with her, seems to me like that kind of mini wich many struggles with while others triumph. 

[MalifauxDave]

10 minutes ago, Zebo said:

4 radius plus Ama's mini is almost 10" diameter, it feels to me like a large portion of the board. 

I have not played with/against her anyway, and while I'm not totally sold with her, seems to me like that kind of mini wich many struggles with while others triumph. 

4 covers 3.8% of the board. Thats not terrible but its not massive. 
4 radius is 8" diameter, you don't get to add your melee range to the bubble, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. 

[Nikodemus]

3 minutes ago, MalifauxDave said:

4 covers 3.8% of the board. Thats not terrible but its not massive. 
4 radius is 8" diameter, you don't get to add your melee range to the bubble, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. 

Her 50mm base is just short of 2". So from end to end that diameter is 2x4" + 50mm. "Almost 10'' diameter" as was said.

In my experience most of the board doesn't matter. Generally speaking, a 10" bubble in the correct area is quite significant. Not that I've gotten use out of Ama No Zako's hazard aura specifically. I mainly play her for looks myself, I don't have Parker's soulstones and Emissary's trinkets to buff her.

[Adran]

9 minutes ago, MalifauxDave said:

4 covers 3.8% of the board. Thats not terrible but its not massive. 
4 radius is 8" diameter, you don't get to add your melee range to the bubble, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. 

Not ml range, but you do add base size to the aura, so it's nearer 10" diameter. 

[MalifauxDave]

ohhhhhhhhhhhh

[Seadhna]

8 hours ago, MalifauxDave said:

4 isn't "a large portion of the board". 
Paying 9ss for a scheme runner who is only effective against low DF models sounds awful. I will grant that trying to kill Zako is an exercise in futility, if only because its not worth the AP to kill. 

Define "effective" please!

Is an almost unkillable, Wk 7, Don't Mind Me scheme runner effective? Hell yeah it is.

Is making your opponent waste several activations to kill said scheme runner effective? Probably.

Is dealing damage in an area that is slightly smaller than a quarter of the board without using AP effective? You tell me.

This is a VP game, not a kill-point game, so dunno about awful.

[katadder]

In what way is df5 and 10 wounds almost unkillable. She has to hit stuff and get a trigger to heal and with ml5 that reduces your effective cards if you want a heal. 

If you want to waste the stones on her then be my guest but with her and the emissary you are cutting down your crew potential and whilst malifaux generally doesn't score you for killing (depending on strats and schemes) if you kill your opponents crew they can't score anyway

There is a reason you don't see ama on the board and that's because she sucks. If you want a scheme runner then go for the faster and even harder to kill but cheaper midnight stalker

[Seadhna]

1 hour ago, katadder said:

In what way is df5 and 10 wounds almost unkillable. She has to hit stuff and get a trigger to heal and with ml5 that reduces your effective cards if you want a heal. 

If you want to waste the stones on her then be my guest but with her and the emissary you are cutting down your crew potential and whilst malifaux generally doesn't score you for killing (depending on strats and schemes) if you kill your opponents crew they can't score anyway

There is a reason you don't see ama on the board and that's because she sucks. If you want a scheme runner then go for the faster and even harder to kill but cheaper midnight stalker

You still haven't defined "effective", yet still keep telling me how to play the game (and no, "kill them and scheme later" is not a viable strategy in every match) using vague words like "potential". Define that too while you're at it!

Minor notice: it's you who doesn't see Ama on the board. And no, stalker is much easier to kill than a 10 Wd henchman with 6 stones, then 2 more stones, then 2 more stones (rinse and repeat), everyone who has used stalker against a semi-skilled opponent knows that.

[Jesy Blue]

I have to say I've ONLY seen Ama in Ten Thunders lists, especally Asami crews, never seen anyone use her in Outcasts.

[katadder]

2 hours ago, Seadhna said:

You still haven't defined "effective", yet still keep telling me how to play the game (and no, "kill them and scheme later" is not a viable strategy in every match) using vague words like "potential". Define that too while you're at it!

Minor notice: it's you who doesn't see Ama on the board. And no, stalker is much easier to kill than a 10 Wd henchman with 6 stones, then 2 more stones, then 2 more stones (rinse and repeat), everyone who has used stalker against a semi-skilled opponent knows that.

Kill them and scheme later seems to work for me in most my games.

Also unless you double focus, or focus and stone or have built in pos and either focus or stone then need to do the 6 damage in the one hit the stalker is much harder to take down than a df5 10 wound henchmen with any amount of stones. Also the stalker can never be tied down unlike your ml5 df5 henchman.

Potential is your crews abilities to do stuff and spending 10ss on the probably the worst outcast henchman is lowering your crews potential. A henchman that can be tied up by most minions in the game that cost half it's price even if they don't kill it.

If you want definitions look in a dictionary but ama wouldn't fit in effective or potential 😜 it's why you don't see her at all.

[Seadhna]

3 hours ago, katadder said:

Kill them and scheme later seems to work for me in most my games.

Also unless you double focus, or focus and stone or have built in pos and either focus or stone then need to do the 6 damage in the one hit the stalker is much harder to take down than a df5 10 wound henchmen with any amount of stones. Also the stalker can never be tied down unlike your ml5 df5 henchman.

Potential is your crews abilities to do stuff and spending 10ss on the probably the worst outcast henchman is lowering your crews potential. A henchman that can be tied up by most minions in the game that cost half it's price even if they don't kill it.

If you want definitions look in a dictionary but ama wouldn't fit in effective or potential 😜 it's why you don't see her at all.

This post is so full of logical fallacies I don’t see any reason to argue anymore. Good luck with your games!

[Zebo]

I must say I don't like much of Ama No Zako, since her costs 9ss and I find I like more other expensive options. 

Also don't feel to me like she's tough, since def 5 and HtW plus spending ss is not in any matter unkillable to me (we could say the same "unkillablivity" from Taelor"). 

But I don't feel like she's one of our worst models, just that I don't like much what she makes. It's obvious that many players play her and really likes what she do. Not sure what she have in TT that doesn't in Outcast. 

[lusciousmccabe]

I quite like Ama (not sure if I posted that earlier) but haven't played since wave 4 so there might be some new options that have usurped her spot. 

Used to take her in strategies that required getting over the centre-line ASAP. She has no trouble crossing the middle on turn one and can do so with AP to spare with some upgrades (or an Obey from Hamelin). Her own (0) Obey thing can also speed up another model which helps them do the same and is probably her unique selling point these days.

Her other (0) is cool but kind of meh in practice. If it can guarantee keeping a hold on a scheme runner late in the game that's great, but Promising Whisper can usually do the same if you don't mind the opposed Duel.

Being a very suit dependent model definitely hurts her as you need to plan around it or she's basically losing an action per turn. Think she's niche enough as is so that shouldn't be a problem as long as you know what you're getting yourself in for. 

As someone said for the Freikorpsmann if Ama is on the worst models list for Outcasts that speaks to the healthiness of the faction overall. She's a pretty strong generalist who can largely be replaced by cheaper, more specialised models, but I think she's still playable wouldn't require much buffing to become over the top. 

 

[Adran]

12 hours ago, katadder said:

In what way is df5 and 10 wounds almost unkillable. She has to hit stuff and get a trigger to heal and with ml5 that reduces your effective cards if you want a heal. 

If you want to waste the stones on her then be my guest but with her and the emissary you are cutting down your crew potential and whilst malifaux generally doesn't score you for killing (depending on strats and schemes) if you kill your opponents crew they can't score anyway

There is a reason you don't see ama on the board and that's because she sucks. If you want a scheme runner then go for the faster and even harder to kill but cheaper midnight stalker

I would say the reason you don't see ama on the board is other people think she sucks. And, sometimes people are wrong. She may never be a model you will play, but that is not the same as being useless. 

I've not tried Seenahs way of using Parker, but from what he's said it does seem like it is a good solution to what were widely considered the flaws with ama ( in that she needs suits, and so spends lots of stones to get her results). A crew that gets extra cards and stones looks to get the potential from her. 

And she does have high potential.

She also looks like the kind of model that is a good answer to the killed everything and then score, ( which is an approach I find relatively easy to deal with it in lots of games when I know its coming)

 

In a comparison between actual use, and just theory, actual use wins for me. Because saying things like ml 5 can never hit really doesn't match my in game experience, and if they are saving cards to make it true, then I can normally use that hand control.