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On 6/2/2018 at 6:46 PM, wafew said:

Lets compare the FM (Freikorpsmann) to the beloved FT (Freikorps Trapper)

  • FT is 2 more ss, they have the same stats, except for FT with one more wd, and FM with one more charge inch.
  • FM has unimpeded, FT has from the shadows.
  • FM has a better melee (6vs3), and a slightly better dmg track, FM has crit, and a trigger to raise his df by 2.
  • Their Sh is the same, FT has longer range, especially if focused, and FT has slightly better damage, with a :+flip to attack.
  • both got crit, and push
  • FM has a (0) to add a suit from a discarded card, and FT can leave engagement.

They're pretty similar, they just function a lil different. FM can even do more damage with his (0), maybe FM are just too general for people's tastes.

You saw the trapper when he was 6 stones, now at 7 you see him a lot less, at 6 he's waaaaay better

 

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On 6/3/2018 at 12:46 AM, wafew said:

Lets compare the FM (Freikorpsmann) to the beloved FT (Freikorps Trapper)

  • FT is 2 more ss, they have the same stats, except for FT with one more wd, and FM with one more charge inch.
  • FM has unimpeded, FT has from the shadows.
  • FM has a better melee (6vs3), and a slightly better dmg track, FM has crit, and a trigger to raise his df by 2.
  • Their Sh is the same, FT has longer range, especially if focused, and FT has slightly better damage, with a :+flip to attack.
  • both got crit, and push
  • FM has a (0) to add a suit from a discarded card, and FT can leave engagement.

They're pretty similar, they just function a lil different. FM can even do more damage with his (0), maybe FM are just too general for people's tastes.

Sorry, can't take serious that. Freikorpsmann and Trapper are pretty similar? Unimpeded has nothing to do with From the Shadows, since the last is a world better than the first; but not a small world like Pluto, but a whole jupiter. 

Also, put the Trapper in a good spot and can hold the whole battleground. The Freikorpsmann range is quite worse. 

And the Trapper can do his work without burning your entire hand. 

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3 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Sorry, can't take serious that. Freikorpsmann and Trapper are pretty similar? Unimpeded has nothing to do with From the Shadows, since the last is a world better than the first; but not a small world like Pluto, but a whole jupiter. 

Also, put the Trapper in a good spot and can hold the whole battleground. The Freikorpsmann range is quite worse. 

I will agree from the shadow is a lot better than unimpeded for a sniper, but in general in the game it's a lot closer, and board depending. And if your opponent can engage the trapper it is a lot worse. ( sure it can escape,but that's probably cost it a lot in threat for that turn. And I've certainly played games where that ideal spot ended up neutering the trapper because it couldn't push to escape once I got there. 

Trapped is better overall, and I don't try and use of them for the same jobs anyway, 

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10 hours ago, Zebo said:

 Unimpeded has nothing to do with From the Shadows, since the last is a world better than the first;

I'm not saying it does, I'm saying that the models themselves are similar, not the first ability of theirs that i mention, in fact i'm mentionning the things that ARE different about them. They each have to do with whats best for the respective unit. Of course FtS is better on FT, he's a sniper.

Your argument would be similar to saying that fins are a world better than wings, which is true when speaking of fish.

10 hours ago, Zebo said:

but not a small world like Pluto, but a whole jupiter. 

Why go to that length of exaggeration...

10 hours ago, Zebo said:

Also, put the Trapper in a good spot and can hold the whole battleground.

I'm not arguing that, he's a sniper, it's what he does. 

10 hours ago, Zebo said:

The Freikorpsmann range is quite worse. 

when compared to a focused FT, yes, otherwise, it's just 2" worse. which is quite acceptable, if not better than a lot of other shooting models in the game, which also stands at 1/3 of the board length, which lets him hit a target on the center from where he deploys, and if he sits in the center of the board, has the range to hit anyone within 6" of the sides. FT also has a much worse Melee, and shorter charge range. FT trades his melee, so he can shoot further and a pos flip.

10 hours ago, Zebo said:

And the Trapper can do his work without burning your entire hand. 

Again, why with all the exaggerations... 

 

You don't have to take/like the model or think it's good, just stop trashing it so hard and keep complainning about it when it has it's strengths. Either nothing is going to change, or Wyrd will buff them, to the point where everyone will take them, and then there'll be another model to trash about until the cycle repeats.

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8 hours ago, wafew said:

Why with all the exaggerations... 

 

You don't have to take/like the model or think it's good, just stop trashing it so hard and keep complainning about it when it has it's strengths. Either nothing is going to change, or Wyrd will buff them, to the point where everyone will take them, and then there'll be another model to trash about until the cycle repeats.

I don't think the exagerations are out of place. The FM is outshined by many other models, if someone can make use of them in NB as a merc, good for them (I legitmatelty think that is cool), the only reason I see for hiring a FM in a schill crew is for cheap survivability (which in my experience isn't that great, they still die fairly easily).

In terms of the trapper, it is just flat out better. 

1) the trapper doesn't care about about melee, it will just push out using it's 0, so the FM being better at it is a moot point.

2) Trapper's min damage compared to a FM is 1 higher, which is like baking in a ram (so there is 1 card you aren't spending on the trapper)

3) The Trappers push trigger is built in, and connected to a + attack, which makes it a) not cost a card and b) more reliable

4) It's also 2ss higher so obviously it should be better. FM can be good but only if they cost you a lot of cards, the trapper preforms without cards, and only ever needs one to push out of melee. 

I've run the 2 box FM in Vonschill lists for ages, and only recently took them out, because they just aren't preforming well enough for a 10ss investment, or are costing me cards that are better spent else where.

The whole crew wants rams, so it's not worth me spending them on an attack stat of 5 (shooting) when I could use them elsewhere on an attack stat of 6, also typically once oppnents see me invest multiple cards into a FM attack they drop a big card to make it miss.

I used to be a big defender of the FM, but other models have come out at the 5-6ss cost that outshine them, and the engineer also came out, which hurt the FM in two fold.

The engineer being only 1 cost higher than the FM just looks more desirable, and also since the engineer can add rams to other models it upped the damge output of a FM, which means it is highly unlikely to see any sort of boost.

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6 hours ago, Mikey_C said:

I don't think the exagerations are out of place.

I think the whole quote about a whole world apart, and not pluto but Jupiter, as well as "the whole hand" are exaggerations.

6 hours ago, Mikey_C said:

In terms of the trapper, it is just flat out better. 

1) the trapper doesn't care about about melee, it will just push out using it's 0, so the FM being better at it is a moot point.

2) Trapper's min damage compared to a FM is 1 higher, which is like baking in a ram (so there is 1 card you aren't spending on the trapper)

3) The Trappers push trigger is built in, and connected to a + attack, which makes it a) not cost a card and b) more reliable

4) It's also 2ss higher so obviously it should be better. FM can be good but only if they cost you a lot of cards, the trapper preforms without cards, and only ever needs one to push out of melee. 

It should be better, it's more expensive. Not caring about melee doesn't mean melee isn't an important thing, sometimes you can't push far away enough, and you may have times when the only targets would cause randomization and possibly hit your own models. Some models are really good at not getting shot. hit min and average are better, but severe is the same, and FM has better potential at max damage.

a + attack flip is wonderful, and is in fact more reliable, however it doesn't mean that you'll automatically not need to cheat. and it doesn't mean FM will automatically need to cheat either. the only card that FM will 100% spend is for the field guide action. Wether or not you need to cheat in for the attack/damage is up to luck, same for the FT.

6 hours ago, Mikey_C said:

I've run the 2 box FM in Vonschill lists for ages, and only recently took them out, because they just aren't preforming well enough for a 10ss investment, or are costing me cards that are better spent else where.

I appreciate that you have the experience with having thoroughly used them for a while. Did you use take them in every von schill game automatically? did you ever take just one?

6 hours ago, Mikey_C said:

The whole crew wants rams, so it's not worth me spending them on an attack stat of 5 (shooting) when I could use them elsewhere on an attack stat of 6, also typically once oppnents see me invest multiple cards into a FM attack they drop a big card to make it miss.

The same can be said about the FT and his Sh stat of 5.

6 hours ago, Mikey_C said:

I used to be a big defender of the FM, but other models have come out at the 5-6ss cost that outshine them, and the engineer also came out, which hurt the FM in two fold.

The engineer being only 1 cost higher than the FM just looks more desirable, and also since the engineer can add rams to other models it upped the damge output of a FM, which means it is highly unlikely to see any sort of boost.

I think the engineer is amazing, but I see him as running with the FM, rather than replacing the FM, if you charge in with the FE, and can lower the enemies df by 2, then you can have FM follow in with a higher chance to succeed, and get a neutral/positive flip too, and increase a FM's damage on top of that.

when the FE comes out, and Show of force is a scheme in the pool, I plan to use FE, and 2 FM, and have FE give himself +1 armor, and the :-flipbuff, charge in, weaken an enforcer/hench/master, have 2 FM charge in as well, get the +2df trigger, and sit there. on paper that sounds good to me, still need to try it.

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8 minutes ago, wafew said:

I think the whole quote about a whole world apart, and not pluto but Jupiter, as well as "the whole hand" are exaggerations.

I think that is just someone having fun with word play, but I agree. If we were to play Marry, F***, Kill with the trapper, engineer and korpsman, I think the korpsman is getting killed everytime.

11 minutes ago, wafew said:

It should be better, it's more expensive. Not caring about melee doesn't mean melee isn't an important thing, sometimes you can't push far away enough, and you may have times when the only targets would cause randomization and possibly hit your own models. Some models are really good at not getting shot. hit min and average are better, but severe is the same, and FM has better potential at max damage.get the +2df trigger, and sit there. on paper that sounds good to me, still need to try it.

I can't recall a time that a trapper was totally unable to push out of melee. It may have happened, but it certainly didn't leave any sort of lasting impression on me that it is something I need to look out for. The FM being bad at melee has so seldom been an issue, off hand I can only every recall that one game I had him charge for some reason and I can't remember why, but largely it hasn't been an issue in the slightest.  There have been times it fired into melee and randomized, but that + flip is a real help there because if you do end up targeting your own guy you can often pick a low card and just miss. But this same issue also come us with a regular FM who doesn't have anyting in charge range.

1 hour ago, wafew said:

a + attack flip is wonderful, and is in fact more reliable, however it doesn't mean that you'll automatically not need to cheat. and it doesn't mean FM will automatically need to cheat either. the only card that FM will 100% spend is for the field guide action. Wether or not you need to cheat in for the attack/damage is up to luck, same for the FT.

Not necesarily the point I was trying to make. For a zero card investment, the trappers damage track of 2/3/5 is like a FM damage track after the FM has referenced the feild guide for a ram (2/3/6). The trapper gets there with no card investment, the trapper also has the + flip which before cheating occurs avarages to a +2 to the attack stat. On top of this point, the trapper has a built in mask for reposition. So a regular shot from a trapper has +2", almost the effects of a FM feild guiding a ram, AND a free reposition with no card investment. 

I'm beating a bit of a dead horse here though since we already both agreed the trapper is better, and also costs more.

1 hour ago, wafew said:

The same can be said about the FT and his Sh stat of 5

Not the point I was trying to make, I doubt I'd give the trapper rams from an engineer either, unless I was trying to 1 shot something turn 1, in which case the engineer is likely not poisitioned to do it. My point was that because the engineer exists and because it has the option of giving the FM a ram which takes his potential damge very high, we will very unlikely see the FM get a buff to compensate for it's (IMO) poor ability to preform reliably. It is my opinoin that the FM is probably the perfecdt example of a 4.5ss worth model. Which really is the whole reason I think it's bad. It's a wave 1 model that at this point has fallen behind the curve and the "fixes" in place are card intensive and not worth it. But the fact that these "fixes" exist means the FM is stuck where it is presently at. Not good enough for 5ss too good for 4ss.

 

1 hour ago, wafew said:

I think the engineer is amazing, but I see him as running with the FM, rather than replacing the FM, if you charge in with the FE, and can lower the enemies df by 2, then you can have FM follow in with a higher chance to succeed, and get a neutral/positive flip too, and increase a FM's damage on top of that.

when the FE comes out, and Show of force is a scheme in the pool, I plan to use FE, and 2 FM, and have FE give himself +1 armor, and the :-flipbuff, charge in, weaken an enforcer/hench/master, have 2 FM charge in as well, get the +2df trigger, and sit there. on paper that sounds good to me, still need to try it.

For the points I feel like you'd get more reliable results from Anna or the Strongarm. the melee of 5 on the engineer could be bad, could be a good combo the right models though.

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Our worst models in-faction are: 

- Strongarm. For 10ss he does very little and goes down to any form of ignoring armor

- Bishop. Vulnerable to control, extremely fragile, low attack stat.

- Lazarus. If there's hard cover on the table or opponent has damage reduction, he'll do pitiful damage.

Note that both Bishop and Lazarus perform much better in other factions because of upgrades.

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19 minutes ago, Mikey_C said:

I think that is just someone having fun with word play, but I agree. If we were to play Marry, F***, Kill with the trapper, engineer and korpsman, I think the korpsman is getting killed everytime.

I would kill the FM too, especially when the engineer has that sexy can opener trigger. But the important question, is who would you Marry???????

19 minutes ago, Mikey_C said:

I can't recall a time that a trapper was totally unable to push out of melee. It may have happened, but it certainly didn't leave any sort of lasting impression on me that it is something I need to look out for. The FM being bad at melee has so seldom been an issue, off hand I can only every recall that one game I had him charge for some reason and I can't remember why, but largely it hasn't been an issue in the slightest.  There have been times it fired into melee and randomized, but that + flip is a real help there because if you do end up targeting your own guy you can often pick a low card and just miss. But this same issue also come us with a regular FM who doesn't have anyting in charge range.

Having a :+flipwhen shooting your own models is not something i considered, quite a valid point. Perhaps I'm just playing FT wrong. I find myself in games where models i want to hit are either hiding well, or engaged with my models, and if all I had was a FT, i then wished i had an FM to charge in.

19 minutes ago, Mikey_C said:

Not necesarily the point I was trying to make. For a zero card investment, the trappers damage track of 2/3/5 is like a FM damage track after the FM has referenced the feild guide for a ram (2/3/6). The trapper gets there with no card investment, the trapper also has the + flip which before cheating occurs avarages to a +2 to the attack stat. On top of this point, the trapper has a built in mask for reposition. So a regular shot from a trapper has +2", almost the effects of a FM feild guiding a ram, AND a free reposition with no card investment. 

Not the point I was trying to make, I doubt I'd give the trapper rams from an engineer either, unless I was trying to 1 shot something turn 1, in which case the engineer is likely not poisitioned to do it. My point was that because the engineer exists and because it has the option of giving the FM a ram which takes his potential damge very high, we will very unlikely see the FM get a buff to compensate for it's (IMO) poor ability to preform reliably.

FT's higher lower-damage track certaintly suits him better. I try and use FM shoot to go for the severe with focusing and field guide to get 7 damage (8 if engineer) , so I'm not bothered that FM has a lower lower-damage tracker. ( I am not denying that this can be card draining if unlucky, but i find it worth it to discard up to 3 cards ( one of which can be an ace ), in order to deal 7 damage, regardless of if it's on a 5ss model or not ).

19 minutes ago, Mikey_C said:

 It is my opinoin that the FM is probably the perfecdt example of a 4.5ss worth model. Which really is the whole reason I think it's bad. It's a wave 1 model that at this point has fallen behind the curve and the "fixes" in place are card intensive and not worth it. But the fact that these "fixes" exist means the FM is stuck where it is presently at. Not good enough for 5ss too good for 4ss.

Would you take 2 FM for 9ss instead of 10ss though? I feel like a SS less wouldn't really change much, but maybe that's just me.

19 minutes ago, Mikey_C said:

For the points I feel like you'd get more reliable results from Anna or the Strongarm. the melee of 5 on the engineer could be bad, could be a good combo the right models though.

Anna and strongman are great and all, but not what i was trying to convey with the text i was making about how FM can be buffed by lowering a targets df with FE, making the FMs more reliable. especially that you don't need to have von schill himself do it with his unsuited can opener. also anna and strongarm can't be used for show of force. also, Why not both? *Mexican music*

19 minutes ago, Mikey_C said:

I'm beating a bit of a dead horse here

Only beating a horse if you say the same things, which you're not, you were explaining in a different/new way.

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12 hours ago, wafew said:

I think the whole quote about a whole world apart, and not pluto but Jupiter, as well as "the whole hand" are exaggerations.

What can I say? I'm a poet xD

I'm complaining about FM because I use it a lot, and never worth its cost. Like the Specialist, I must say. 

He's too slow to be a scheme runner, and also to chase down other scheme runners (i've been more often than not wasting 2-3 turns with him chasing a weaker scheme runner to make 1 point of damage per turn). I think I've never killed anything with them (if I spend cards in improving their power, my opponents simply cheat high in df). The best thing they had made for me is a couple of times forcing my opponent to spend one more turn than spected in killing them, and sometimes being pursued by an enemy beater. 

 

10 hours ago, Seadhna said:

Our worst models in-faction are: 

- Strongarm. For 10ss he does very little and goes down to any form of ignoring armor

Whaaaaaaaat? 

I think the only reason to me for win games regardless of playing with Freikorpsmann and Specialist is the Strongarm. He's quite awesome. 

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FM is so strong that people don't want to take him to the tournaments out of the fear being called power-gamers 😂

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2 hours ago, Zebo said:

Whaaaaaaaat? 

I think the only reason to me for win games regardless of playing with Freikorpsmann and Specialist is the Strongarm. He's quite awesome. 

He just... deals damage, with no other utility. I want more bang from a 10ss model than maybe doing 6 damage off a charge.

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SA is an off-tank. He's quite durable, hit hard, shoots with Sh 7 (the higher among all Freikorps), and anybody can hold him where you don't want him to be. You can simply charge out to another place. I play him a lot with Scout the Field and the charges throug walls and buildings give nightmares to my opponents. 

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9 hours ago, Zebo said:

Whaaaaaaaat? [In regards of someone dissing the Strongarm Suit]

You support the Strongarm Suit despite the fact that he has the same Df, Wp, Wk, Cg, Ml stat, Sh stat, Sh range, Wd to SS ratio, base size, and Ht as the nefarious Freikorpsmann!!!!!!! *Exaggerated Gasp*

( I know... I'll leave now... )

 

9 hours ago, Zebo said:

What can I say? I'm a poet xD

Aight, fair point.

9 hours ago, Zebo said:

Like the Specialist, I must say. 

I'll admit I don't use the specialist in Outcasts ( I do love him with Sonia and Pandora though )

9 hours ago, Zebo said:

 (if I spend cards in improving their power, my opponents simply cheat high in df).

Would the fact that FM can easily up himself to df 7 give him any points with the same logic that it becomes much harder for anyone to hit him, and make him more tanky/valuable/durable?

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In fact, the only times the Freikorpsmann had done something usefull for me, was when he triggered the +2 df and lasted alive more than expected. A couple of times. 

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On 6/22/2018 at 6:47 PM, Seadhna said:

- Strongarm. For 10ss he does very little and goes down to any form of ignoring armor

Strongarm is one of my best enforcers. Sh7 with the (0) action? +1 ml dmg that hannah can copy? For me he is gold teamed with Von Schill hunting down key enemy models while the rest scores VP

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I'd rather have 2 freikorpsmenn than a Lazarus.

Never been more unimpressed with a giant robot in my life, then again I think you need to be playing pariah of iron to make him shine in outcast unless someone has a dope talos + lazarus list out there. 

Edit: here I made a list

We're going to bomb Lazarus in.

Declared Faction: Outcasts 
Crew Name: Dope Talos Lazerus 50ss 
Leader: Tara - Cache:(4)
   Emptiness 0ss 
   Knowledge of Eternity 2ss 
   Obliteration Symbiote 2ss 
Malifaux Child 2ss 
Rusty Alyce 10ss 
Lazarus 10ss 
Talos 8ss 
Void Wretch 4ss 
Void Wretch 4ss 
Void Wretch 4ss 
Void Wretch 4ss 
 

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Tara using Pull the Void on Lazarus to make him fast has carried me through a few tournaments. It lets him walk forward and Autofire to drop a whole lot of damage into one place.

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1 hour ago, Mason said:

Tara using Pull the Void on Lazarus to make him fast has carried me through a few tournaments. It lets him walk forward and Autofire to drop a whole lot of damage into one place.

what if the board is set up well and things are in cover?

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5 minutes ago, Seadhna said:

what if the board is set up well and things are in cover?

If the opponent's entire crew is in cover, then you can just move up, focus, and fire a single shot.

Pretty much the same as any other shooting model, really.  :P

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On 6/23/2018 at 12:47 AM, Seadhna said:

Our worst models in-faction are: 

- Strongarm. For 10ss he does very little and goes down to any form of ignoring armor

- Bishop. Vulnerable to control, extremely fragile, low attack stat.

- Lazarus. If there's hard cover on the table or opponent has damage reduction, he'll do pitiful damage.

Note that both Bishop and Lazarus perform much better in other factions because of upgrades.

That`s an interesting list - so there are no worse models than these in your faction at all? Oo

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6 hours ago, Tris said:

That`s an interesting list - so there are no worse models than these in your faction at all? Oo

none in the 9-10 ss slot, for sure

but for most other models I see at least some use

oh, and I forgot the staple of overpriced underpowered beaters which is Killjoy

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On 6/23/2018 at 8:47 AM, Seadhna said:

Our worst models in-faction are: 

- Strongarm. For 10ss he does very little and goes down to any form of ignoring armor

- Bishop. Vulnerable to control, extremely fragile, low attack stat.

- Lazarus. If there's hard cover on the table or opponent has damage reduction, he'll do pitiful damage.

Note that both Bishop and Lazarus perform much better in other factions because of upgrades.

They're on most people's best lists!  

 

Bishop - 3AP is always amazing.  Makes him great in headhunter.  A bit slow, average defence, but study opponent can be really great.  Cage fighter defensive trigger is handy too.  Damage is low at first glance, but a range of triggers and auto-selecting a suit is nice.  Can do 4/5/6 damage if you flip a ram.  Min 4 is just great, especially when you get to choose to target somebody's weakest stat.  Min 4 dmg with 4 attacks - potentially 6 if you're using oathkeeper.  He can cause problems, and his defensive trigger can make opponents a little reluctant to hit him.  Only 4" walk is his main weakness I think, but at least his CG is 7"

 

Strongarm - low df sure, but most models won't pierce Armor.  Defensive buffs usually have some counters.  Armor 2 is good - it means there's a fair chance you're only copping 1-2 dmg every time you lose an attack.  Even losing on severe dmg, you're only copping 2-3, maybe 4.  Augmented jump is amazing, and Friekorps suit really negate some things that other crews are doing.  2/4/6 dmg, triggers, at possibly Ml7 isn't anything to sneeze at (although I think min dmg 3 would suit him more).  His shooting is pretty average, although you can buff it to Sh7.  But if he's leaping around close to von Schill and has oathkeeper, so getting :+flip on models Schill is damaging, then he starts getting hard to defend against.  

 

Lazarus is one of my favourite models.  Autofire is just amazing.  So much better than rapid fire.  Again, Armor 2 makes him pretty tough to take down unless you're piercing armor - but yes, if that's the case then he's way too easy to take down, though the heal is good.  Not too many models are bypassing armor so it's probably still useful.  min 3 dmg is nice, and (0)AP using a construct's ability can be great.  Great synergy with Schill too - although it might be a problem if Schill is upfield.  

 

Some of the best models in the game around that SS range

 

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4 hours ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

But if he's leaping around close to von Schill and has oathkeeper, so getting :+flip on models Schill is damaging, then he starts getting hard to defend against

Right? those two teamed concentrating the attacks on one enemy can take down a master in no time.

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11 hours ago, Seadhna said:

none in the 9-10 ss slot, for sure

but for most other models I see at least some use

oh, and I forgot the staple of overpriced underpowered beaters which is Killjoy

So, what's a good Enforcer in that price range for you, taking other factions into account too?

Just curious because the only other (9-)10stone enforcer in Outcasts is the Emissary which I think you rate quite high, everyone else is a Henchman.

 

Also, whats the reason behind you saying these are even worse than, let's say, the Freikorpsman or Gunslingers?

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