Our worst models

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Tris said:

So, what's a good Enforcer in that price range for you, taking other factions into account too?

Just curious because the only other (9-)10stone enforcer in Outcasts is the Emissary which I think you rate quite high, everyone else is a Henchman.

Does station matter? If I'm looking at a 9 stone model I'll compare it to another 9 stone model most of the time. ( obviously occasions like collect the bounty, or make them suffer will alter direct comparison). 

[Zebo]

10 hours ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

  Ml7 isn't anything to sneeze at (although I think min dmg 3 would suit him more).

 

Then you'll be happy to know that SA doesn't buff his Ml to 7, but his damage to +1.

 

I cannot speak about Bishop. And while Lazarus has done interesting things for me, he's been also taken out of the game  quite easily by a few average models engaging him. 

But I'm strating to get tired of singing the same song about Strong Arm. Maybe he's not for some players because of his strengths and weaknesses, maybe he doesn fit with some playstyles. But he's a beast.

He's tough (yes, def 5 is not awesome, but I can't remember any armor 2 model with def 6+, so it's in the top in his class). He hits hard (2/4/6 with easy +1 damage and trigger). He shoots quite good (12", the damage is not awesome, but Sh 7 is, and also the Slow trigger). And he is mobile. If some anti armor charges him and doesn't deal 10 damage, he can simply charge any other place. Put on him Scout the Field and enjoy his 7" bubble of "I can charge anybody out of LoS". 

[Tris]

6 hours ago, Adran said:

Does station matter? If I'm looking at a 9 stone model I'll compare it to another 9 stone model most of the time. ( obviously occasions like collect the bounty, or make them suffer will alter direct comparison). 

I just mentioned the station as in the current discussion we're talking about outcast 9-10stone models, srongarm, lazarus and bishop where disregarded, stating that they are the worst at least in that price range - everyone else except the emissary is a henchman, so I guess station must be a part of it in this faction, considering that models like Montresor, Rusty Alyce and Ama no Zaku are seen as better models for their cost.

Question is - does he not like enforcers in that price range in general, or just the outcast specific ones?

[Seadhna]

1 hour ago, Tris said:

I just mentioned the station as in the current discussion we're talking about outcast 9-10stone models, srongarm, lazarus and bishop where disregarded, stating that they are the worst at least in that price range - everyone else except the emissary is a henchman, so I guess station must be a part of it in this faction, considering that models like Montresor, Rusty Alyce and Ama no Zaku are seen as better models for their cost.

Question is - does he not like enforcers in that price range in general, or just the outcast specific ones?

I do believe 10ss enforcers are a very risky investment since they either do something when you don't have suits, do a lot when you do, or die because none of them are both survivable and impactful. In my experience, the best defensive ability to have for a model with no SS prevention is HtK, and at 9-10 ss only the Emissary has it. Sure, Strongarm gets the Schill aura, but then you either lose activation control big time or don't get emissary, and without regular shirts VS is basically a Swift henchman.

So my biggest gripe with Bishop and Strongarm is that they are extremely vulnerable to any sort of control while naturally attracting it (Slow strongarm is just a piece of meat, Slow Bishop is just an expensive Freikorpsmann). My gripe with Laz and SA is that armor reduction is very common in a lot of factions which makes the premium we payed for Armor +2 a little too much.

For 9 SS I'd always pick Sue with Return Fire/Scramble for the utility and beatdowns  (worst case he draws me a card and has more survivability than Bishop, best case he does good damage at range), for 10 SS it's Emissary without competition, 8 SS is the utility slot, so Marlena/Stalker/naked Sue/Scramble Johan, 7 SS is the "leftover points" slot, but Johan and Flammenwerfer have their niche uses, and Convicts are okay-ish despite being slow.

 

EDIT:

looked at Gunslinger stats again. Yeah, they're in the Bishop and Lazarus and Talos category of "I was born to do great things, but will die horribly", so probably the worst enforcer in the faction.

[katadder]

I must be odd then as I get great use out of bishop and taelor bringing at least 1 and sometimes both in most crews. 

Some time use from Lazarus but he often doesn't do alot.

Sue is our best enforcer but others have their places

Edit: out of 16 currently built outcast crews I only have 4 that don't have either taelor or bishop and 3 of my crews have both of them 😀

[Jesy Blue]

2 hours ago, Tris said:

Question is - does he not like enforcers in that price range in general, or just the outcast specific ones?

What about Vanessa?  Even without her sister(s) her card manipulation, great shooting, 0 Action construct Obey, and access to Howling Wolf Tattoo are pretty awesome!  Or does she not compare being only 8 stones?

[CapnBloodbeard]

She's only good in a sister crew, unless you're focussing on the construct obey bit.  Low damage, easy to take down, heal is 2AP.

[katadder]

She has other uses. Card manipulation is nice and ca9 whilst standing on the centre line plus card draw. I like her but she is easy to take down. Should probably be a 7ss model

[Cedar]

The only thing how I'd change Vanessa would be to make her Leyline ability to be active when she is within 2" of the centerline instead of being active when she stands on it.

About Gunslingers - I'd take them if they would be WK 5 and Rg 2"or 12".

[Zebo]

I like the gunslingers, but I think that their worst thing is their Df 4. It makes their trigger almost anecdotal. 

[Cedar]

They are also very slow - WK 4 is same as Sue has, but his guns are rg 12"  instead of 10" and are dealing more damage (although are less accurate). I think there are few ways how to improve them - either increase their walk and range as I said before, or - for instance - give them Hard to Kill or increase their defense to 6, or give them built-in slow trigger, or even reduce their cost  by 1-2 soulstones.

[Zebo]

They're probably well costed for their damage output. And with Return Fire upgrade become more dangerous

[Cedar]

I don't think so - they have damage track of 2/3/4 with possibility of performing additional shot. For 1 Soul,stone less, we can hire Dead Outlaws, who have same, or sometimes better, damage output and who provide utility in form of removing enemy scheme markers or applying curse of covetous to the enemy. For 1 soulstone more, we can hire Sue, who has better damage track, draws cards and has fantastic utility actions. Of course - Convicts are most accurate of the three models mentioned above, but their damage output isn't as reliable as Dead Outlaws or Sue and they bring nothing to the team except mediocre firepower. 

[Zebo]

Nonto attack, no extra shoot trigger, no rapid fire... No way Dead Outlaws makes the same damage than Convicts Gunsligers. They can do other things (and are quite more hard to take down). But CG could make up to 6 shots in one activation. 

[Adran]

56 minutes ago, Cedar said:

I don't think so - they have damage track of 2/3/4 with possibility of performing additional shot. For 1 Soul,stone less, we can hire Dead Outlaws, who have same, or sometimes better, damage output and who provide utility in form of removing enemy scheme markers or applying curse of covetous to the enemy. For 1 soulstone more, we can hire Sue, who has better damage track, draws cards and has fantastic utility actions. Of course - Convicts are most accurate of the three models mentioned above, but their damage output isn't as reliable as Dead Outlaws or Sue and they bring nothing to the team except mediocre firepower. 

It sort of depends on how you look at it. The convict gunslinger is more likely to deal damage ( it's more likely to hit) and has a higher maximum damage from his activation, so almost always is a better choice for dealing damage. If you need to do exactly 3 damage, then you might find the other 2 slightly more likely. But if you only need 2 damage, or want 24 damage( I think is it's maximum without joker ) then it has a better chance. Other numbers probably depend too much on what you're hitting and your hand for me to work out. 

14 hours ago, Seadhna said:

I do believe 10ss enforcers are a very risky investment since they either do something when you don't have suits, do a lot when you do, or die because none of them are both survivable and impactful. In my experience, the best defensive ability to have for a model with no SS prevention is HtK, and at 9-10 ss only the Emissary has it.

While I agree htk is a great df, I thought stats were still better. For example, I'd take bishop as is over losing 2 points of df but gaining htk. 

[Seadhna]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

While I agree htk is a great df, I thought stats were still better. For example, I'd take bishop as is over losing 2 points of df but gaining htk. 

I usually assume opponent is going to hit if they want to (there are a lot of high stats in the game), so having Df 4 with HtK is not too shabby.

Also HtK saves a model from damage spikes like moderate on negatives or a RJ, whereas high stats don't.

[Rathnard]

I've never understood why people don't rate Convict Gunslingers. Sue and the Dead Outlaws are more versatile but if I just need a solid shooter, Convict Gunslingers have been my go-to Outcast. 

They're especially good with Misaki IMO, since they've got a reliable attack that thanks to the triggers, your opponent will want to cheat against to avoid the Slow or additional shot. Combine that with his range and Rapid Fire Action and you can consistently draw a few cards out of your opponents hand (or severely punish them for not doing so), priming their crew to get mauled later on by a Misaki-powered Assassination run. That's something that Sue or the Dead Outlaw aren't nearly as good at.

 

EDIT: To me, the Outcast models I see the least reason to take are;

Ama No Zako: Decent mobility and a good damage track, but pretty much everything she does needs a suit so she really needs your cards/stones to be worth while. In any game with any Master, I'd rather take a Midnight Stalker. 

Freikorpsman: Put simply, there's just better available models for the role he's supposed to fill. Not even some Freikorps synergy in a Von Schill crew is enough to make them worth using for anything but staying in-theme. 

Pride: The only reason to take Pride is becase you're taking a Crossroads 7 crew, and he's still the worst model of that bunch too. He might be worth taking in a Misaki crew (all those discards might come in handy), but there are better models. Like a Convict Gunslinger.

Of the others mentioned in this thread (eg, Karina etc), alot of them aren't great, but I think most are still good enough to have a niche in certain crews or situations. And that at least puts them above the three duds above!

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Seadhna said:

I usually assume opponent is going to hit if they want to (there are a lot of high stats in the game), so having Df 4 with HtK is not too shabby.

Also HtK saves a model from damage spikes like moderate on negatives or a RJ, whereas high stats don't.

I probably remember all those times when htk did nothing for me. 

One of the reasons I like bishop is that you have to make a choice if you're going to attack him. Even if you're on a higher stat you still need to save cards in case you missed. 

[Seadhna]

18 minutes ago, Adran said:

I probably remember all those times when htk did nothing for me. 

One of the reasons I like bishop is that you have to make a choice if you're going to attack him. Even if you're on a higher stat you still need to save cards in case you missed. 

I probably see too much non-Ml attacks in my meta!

 

1 hour ago, Rathnard said:

I've never understood why people don't rate Convict Gunslingers. Sue and the Dead Outlaws are more versatile but if I just need a solid shooter, Convict Gunslingers have been my go-to Outcast. 

They're especially good with Misaki IMO, since they've got a reliable attack that thanks to the triggers, your opponent will want to cheat against to avoid the Slow or additional shot. Combine that with his range and Rapid Fire Action and you can consistently draw a few cards out of your opponents hand (or severely punish them for not doing so), priming their crew to get mauled later on by a Misaki-powered Assassination run. That's something that Sue or the Dead Outlaw aren't nearly as good at.

 

EDIT: To me, the Outcast models I see the least reason to take are;

Ama No Zako: Decent mobility and a good damage track, but pretty much everything she does needs a suit so she really needs your cards/stones to be worth while. In any game with any Master, I'd rather take a Midnight Stalker. 

Freikorpsman: Put simply, there's just better available models for the role he's supposed to fill. Not even some Freikorps synergy in a Von Schill crew is enough to make them worth using for anything but staying in-theme. 

Pride: The only reason to take Pride is becase you're taking a Crossroads 7 crew, and he's still the worst model of that bunch too. He might be worth taking in a Misaki crew (all those discards might come in handy), but there are better models. Like a Convict Gunslinger.

Of the others mentioned in this thread (eg, Karina etc), alot of them aren't great, but I think most are still good enough to have a niche in certain crews or situations. And that at least puts them above the three duds above!

Ama no Zako with Scramble is amazing in Parker: she can tank, she can stone for suits (that aura is great), and Wk 7 is glorious in Symbols, Stake and Ours

[MalifauxDave]

19 minutes ago, Seadhna said:

Ama no Zako with Scramble is amazing in Parker.

Ama no Zako
Parker
this is definitely a thread about our worst models. 

[Jesy Blue]

4 hours ago, Zebo said:

Nonto attack, no extra shoot trigger, no rapid fire... No way Dead Outlaws makes the same damage than Convicts Gunsligers. They can do other things (and are quite more hard to take down). But CG could make up to 6 shots in one activation. 

... and no option to put Return Fire on the Minion.

[wafew]

Comparing Convict and Sue, Sue seems to be more resilient (against non-SH), and has more utility and general use. Convicts are just there to shoot people and chew bubble gum. ( and their out of bubble gum)

To another complaint I hear about the convicts being slow, why not use your supporting models to help him out? lure your enemy into position, unbury a model in range, have von schill do n it's not delivery, it's nytheria aftermath into their face, or just park them somewhere that you really don't want the enemy to get close to. 

A lovely thing about them having a 2 to their guns is to give them return fire, since melee attacks will allow them to hit back, so if you get them in a nest of enemies, the convicts will do some damage.

Also sue is rare 1, I like to take a couple of convicts with me, so even if i replaced one with sue, i'd take another convict with him ( i don't have sue, so this is all hypothetical)

also, to the person who said convicts weren't reliable Sh6 and  sounds really reliable to me.

ps: why does sue have the prison pistols, and convicts don't?

[Jesy Blue]

2 hours ago, wafew said:

ps: why does sue have the prison pistols, and convicts don't?

Because "Folsom Prison Blues", that's why!

[Seadhna]

6 hours ago, MalifauxDave said:

Ama no Zako
Parker
this is definitely a thread about our worst models. 

Well I’ve won tournament games at top tables using both, so yeah, probably worst in faction. 

[Franchute]

11 hours ago, Seadhna said:

 

Ama no Zako : she can tank

how does she?