Domin Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 My question is - can Nelle Cochrane use her Revisionist History Ability to cheat hazardous terrain damage flips?Rules of hazardous terrain say: Quote The opposing player flips for hazardous terrain damage, which may not be cheated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Ludvig Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 No, it clearly states it cannot be cheated. She can only ignore negatives, not anything else that states you can't cheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Ludvig Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 Your second sentence doesn't make sense to me. A negative modifier or a joker is not a damage flip so the "those" sounds like it's referring to an earlier sentence. The current sentence says you may cheat flips that were made against you, you are also excluded from the normal no-nos of being on negatives and flipping a joker but nothing in that sentence excludes you from an ability that straight up says "you can't cheat". How are you overriding that? Remember that if an ability says "perform an interact action" or whatever else you still need to obey normal restrictions unless granted express permission. I don't see why this would be different. It lists the specific restrictions you are allowed to ignore. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Morgan Vening Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 7 hours ago, Ludvig said: No, it clearly states it cannot be cheated. She can only ignore negatives, not anything else that states you can't cheat. The wording on that card is terrible, if that's the intent. "This model may cheat damage flips against it, regardless of any or jokers." I know English is an imprecise language, and the rulings on "can vs cannot" tend to be crappy, but if that was the sole intent, I'd have definitely put the clause BEFORE the effect. "Regardless of any or jokers, this model may cheat those damage flips against it." Cause the way it reads now, I can absolutely see it being interpretable as either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Morgan Vening Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 8 hours ago, Ludvig said: Your second sentence doesn't make sense to me. A negative modifier or a joker is not a damage flip so the "those" sounds like it's referring to an earlier sentence. The current sentence says you may cheat flips that were made against you, you are also excluded from the normal no-nos of being on negatives and flipping a joker but nothing in that sentence excludes you from an ability that straight up says "you can't cheat". How are you overriding that? Remember that if an ability says "perform an interact action" or whatever else you still need to obey normal restrictions unless granted express permission. I don't see why this would be different. It lists the specific restrictions you are allowed to ignore. I guess I'm reading (or at least seeing the reading as possible) that "regardless of" is a clarifying, not an exclusionary phrasing. And yes, my inclusion of "those" was in error. But I think if the intent to be unambiguous with regard to exactly what is and isn't allowed, a different phrasing would have made it much clearer. Not doubting your interpretation, I think it's solidly reasoned. But based on the wording on the card, I'd absolutely not have disagreed with someone using it on Hazardous Terrain damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Ludvig Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 Yeah, I get the other side of the argument because it isn't chrystal clear. If an alternative wording was an option it could have said "regardless of negatives, jokers etc." which would have made it clearer it wasn't a specific list but a general exception from anything you could think of. The wording "may cheat any damage flip against it regardless of any restrictions" would also have cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 solkan Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 On 5/22/2018 at 3:47 PM, Morgan Vening said: The wording on that card is terrible, if that's the intent. "This model may cheat damage flips against it, regardless of any or jokers." I know English is an imprecise language, and the rulings on "can vs cannot" tend to be crappy, but if that was the sole intent, I'd have definitely put the clause BEFORE the effect. "Regardless of any or jokers, this model may cheat those damage flips against it." Cause the way it reads now, I can absolutely see it being interpretable as either way. There are a few problems with this reasoning: 1. The rule book starts out with the statement "While players may Cheat Fate on duels, damage flips, and healing flips, it is important to note that a player may not Cheat Fate unless specifically allowed." 2. In the Hazardous Terrain rules it says "The opposing player flips for hazardous terrain damage, which may not be cheated." You'll note that the regular damage flip rules don't have a similar prohibition and instead rely on the general "permission required" qualifier in Cheating. Concerning "the rule would be clearer if it was written in a different order", the rules aren't structured that way at all. Having the qualifier before or after the permission to cheat isn't defined or observed to change the nature of the permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Domin
My question is - can Nelle Cochrane use her Revisionist History Ability to cheat hazardous terrain damage flips?
Rules of hazardous terrain say:
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