Proposal: A request of evidences, before making any change at game!

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

6 minutes ago, whodares said:

As mentioned in previous posts summoning is supposed to be a resource drain. Nicodem actively comes out stronger on all front from summoning.

As a side note: when I look at Nico's Undertaker I see that he was designed to be a different kind of summoner: the one who does not use his resources to summon, but the one who CYCLES his resources, so he never gets out of steam. This sounds like bonkers, true, but unlike other summoners he has no interesting way to spend his AP other than on summoning. So the initial idea was probably ok - to make one-dimensional master, better at summoning than any other - but it derailed later, after more models has been released and enabled abusement of Nicodem's core mechanics. I agree with Fetid Strumpet that the easiest way to mitigate it from the very beginning was to restrict his summoning to a certain keyword. But now it's a bit too late for that.

[TeddyBear]

34 minutes ago, whodares said:

I fail to see how these masters can rival Nicodem's card draw.

I don't want to go too long to explain every drawing synergies, i'm just saying, try to search in forum: serena bowman with thousand faces, the thorn, gwyneth maddox, yasunori.

And think that there are other masters that drawing cards very well!

You didn't say anything about Levi or Somer, do you know those?

34 minutes ago, whodares said:

Lynch can get back aces on friendly activations, but those are aces and they are not useful for all models. 

Yeah, so for example have all other crew models in defensive +2 for free is garbage..🤨

 

34 minutes ago, whodares said:

 Even low cards are great when you're flipping through the deck as much as him as he'll have a much more stacked deck. 

Excuse me for saying so, but this is example when we saying that very often finger is pointed aginst other masters instead his own.. because what is you say, is applies for all masters.

[TeddyBear]

Anyway i'm fairly convinced about one thing: if wyrd developers will choose to change only Sandeep and Nico, inevitably arise new discussion on other Masters 😭 it's a vicious circle

Anyway, probably it's not a right parameter, but i look at Logfaux , i'm choosing gg2018 then tournaments, i don't see neither Sandeep nor Nico.. i don't know..

We will see what happens..

[Ludvig]

16 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Anyway i'm fairly convinced about one thing: if wyrd developers will choose to change only Sandeep and Nico, inevitably arise new discussion on other Masters 😭 it's a vicious circle

Of course something else will pop up. I don't see why it is a vicious cycle? Periodic errata = devs care about the game. No errata = devs don't give a shit about how players experience the game. Just because you do not errata doesn't mean a system is more balanced, it just means the company is less interested in creating balance. I don't believe a miniatures game will ever be "done" or 100% balanced. 

I expect a few models to be adjusted up or down each 6 months. If the top is percieved as only having small differences between a big pool of viable master then errata can focus more on boosting the outliers below the pack.

No errata means more and more homemade fixes will crop up from the community until you need both the official and unofficial rules document for your area. I've seen the 30 page extra restrictions and fan errata that happen when the company isn't interested in official errata. I prefer official errata.

[whodares]

22 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

I don't want to go too long to explain every drawing synergies, i'm just saying, try to search in forum: serena bowman with thousand faces, the thorn, gwyneth maddox, yasunori.

Let me systematically destroy your entire argument.

 

Serena bowman with 1k faces: Only gives a card if you swap to pact. Just ... don't .... She also loses the upgrade if she dies and is reborn.

The Thorn: gives a card after damaging and you have a scheme marker within 2". The other trigger giving a + to damage is in general much better on a 1/3/4 damage track though.

Gwyneth Maddox: 1 card per Turn, possibly more if you flip Aces. Phillip and the Nanny can get 2 cards per Turn, so I don't see the problem here?

Yasunori: once per turn card draw on taking damage. Again I see no problem.

 

Nicodem alone gains the same amount of cards FROM SUMMONING as these "problematic" models have combined.

 

29 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

And think that there are other masters that drawing cards very well!

You didn't say anything about Levi or Somer, do you know those?

I'm not going to list every single master in the game just to show you how wrong you are. Also please don't confuse + flips with card draw. Card draw is in general a whole lot stronger than a + flip. But please continue, show me how those masters can get close to the amount of cards that Nicodem can get while doing a CORE mechanic.

 

31 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Yeah, so for example have all other crew models in defensive +2 for free is garbage..🤨

 

Excuse me for saying so, but this is example when we saying that very often finger is pointed aginst other masters instead his own.. because what is you say, is applies for all masters.

Going into defensive stance takes up AP. If you want to spend an entire Turn giving all your models Defensive +2 I will laugh and thank you for it. It means I get a free Turn to get VP while you stand still and try to look tough

 

The reason why it applies for all masters is because Nicodem and Sandeep are very overtuned right now. There is almost no point in taking another master in said faction because they are overshined by those 2. Why do you not see them winning that many tournaments? Nicodem because he needs to get to Turn 3 to really score VP and he's rather boring to play. Sandeep because he's not everybodies playstyle and some players consider playing him, just like Nicodem, tryhard wannabe winner. Getting wins on these masters is not a testament of skill. Good players seeking recognition would rather play a not-overpowered master and have a challenging game than to be know as "that" guy.

[TeddyBear]

26 minutes ago, whodares said:

Serena bowman with 1k faces: Only gives a card if you swap to pact. 

That's not the correct use of thousand faces for drawing..

26 minutes ago, whodares said:

The Thorn: gives a card after damaging and you have a scheme marker within 2". The other trigger giving a + to damage is in general much better on a 1/3/4 damage track though.

Gwyneth Maddox: 1 card per Turn, possibly more if you flip Aces. Phillip and the Nanny can get 2 cards per Turn, so I don't see the problem here?

Yasunori: once per turn card draw on taking damage. Again I see no problem.

If you see no problem, very well. Surely, i have nothing to explaining to you. If you want really looking and understand how this models can help to drawing, look at forum.

26 minutes ago, whodares said:

Going into defensive stance takes up AP. If you want to spend an entire Turn giving all your models Defensive +2 I will laugh and thank you for it. It means I get a free Turn to get VP while you stand still and try to look tough 

I don't see the connection.. i was trying to explain you that drawing much aces are useful in some ways for Lynch's crew. I would like to see when you are against Lynch crew with 12 or more cards in hand.

There is a lot of documentation about Somer, and Levi can also hire Philip, not mention about his abom.

 

Thank for your opinion.

 

 

[whodares]

7 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

That's not the correct use of thousand faces for drawing..

If you see no problem, very well. Surely, i have nothing to explaining to you. If you want really looking and understand how this models can help to drawing, look at forum.

I don't see the connection.. i was trying to explain you that drawing much aces are useful in some ways for Lynch's crew. I would like to see when you are against Lynch crew with 12 or more cards in hand.

There is a lot of documentation about Somer, and Levi can also hire Philip, not mention about his abom.

 

Thank for your opinion.

Please explain the correct use of the 1k faces for card draw on serena bowman. I have no idea what you are talking about you could possibly turn her into a card drawing machine.

I mentioned how those models can draw 1 card per turn and Nicodem outshines them all together on his own. I would really like to see these broken combo's your are talking about. After all, Nicodem can draw cards without interaction and the others have some sort of cost and/or risk involved.

 

I actually wrote the Lynch Tactica on the forums. I'm rather certain I know what I'm talking about when it involves Lynch. Lynch can shotgun an enemy model ONCE per activation and it has to be within range. Lynch is a mid-range master with barely any defenses, which can make him riskiey to play in order to get the max out of him. I agree the ace mechanic is strong on Lynch, but does it really beat Nicodem's entire hand of severes? There is no point in being able to cheat for damage if your opponent can always outcheat you. I played vs Nicodem with Lynch and Cheating Bastard. Unless I had a 13 in hand, that attack was not getting through. Nicodem pretty much always had a 12-13 in hand to counter my attack.

[Haagrum]

The Serena Bowman card draw mechanic is based on abusing Bloodwretches or Widow Weaver with Doppelgänger (with Mysterious Emissary, in Pandora) to draw a bucketload of cards without having to truly sacrifice a model and give your master an extra action when she dies.

Or at least, that's the one I'm familiar with.

[Ludvig]

8 minutes ago, Haagrum said:

The Serena Bowman card draw mechanic is based on abusing Bloodwretches or Widow Weaver with Doppelgänger (with Mysterious Emissary, in Pandora) to draw a bucketload of cards without having to truly sacrifice a model and give your master an extra action when she dies.

Or at least, that's the one I'm familiar with.

I'm intrigued. Does the emissary copy the weaver's draw on failed horror duels and the dopple + weaver spams them?

[TeddyBear]

11 minutes ago, Haagrum said:

The Serena Bowman card draw mechanic is based on abusing Bloodwretches or Widow Weaver with Doppelgänger (with Mysterious Emissary, in Pandora) to draw a bucketload of cards without having to truly sacrifice a model and give your master an extra action when she dies.

Or at least, that's the one I'm familiar with.

Thanks Haagrum. Exactly.

Hypothetycally speaking about dreamer, you can easily drawing from serena, playtime (2 times), and the thorn. For example.

 

[whodares]

24 minutes ago, Haagrum said:

The Serena Bowman card draw mechanic is based on abusing Bloodwretches or Widow Weaver with Doppelgänger (with Mysterious Emissary, in Pandora) to draw a bucketload of cards without having to truly sacrifice a model and give your master an extra action when she dies.

Or at least, that's the one I'm familiar with.

 

13 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Thanks Haagrum. Exactly.

Hypothetycally speaking about dreamer, you can easily drawing from serena, playtime (2 times), and the thorn. For example.

 

I know that combo as well. It involves making an entire engine just like Nicodem, but you will always have to use your actions on generating those cards. From Turn 2 onwards, Nicodem needs minimum investment to passively get card draw. You are also spending time and quite a bit of stones and AP on getting that done. You're not summoning in any other models, so you will lose activation advantage and/or model count. I still don't see what 1k faces has to do here though

 

As mentioned before, Dreamer uses 1 AP to give Playtime which is AP that could be spend otherwise. Then those attacks still need to damage, which means you need to hit the TN and/or win the duel. I play Dreamer as well and I haven't taken Thorn with him yet, because Thorn just isn't that good. I could take Tooth and then combo it with Rougarou to get a whole lot more value out of it. If you take Thorn for his card draw mechanic, expect him to always hit 1 damage. That's really bad for a 7 stone model. the card draw does not make up for it, hence you never see him in any lists.

 

Dreamer got errata'd a couple of years ago. I'm not even sure pre-errata Dreamer could go against Nicodem right now. That's pretty much the powerlevel Nicodem is at right now. His draw mechanic is only one part of the problem. His main problem is his summoning pool, which has become way too expanded. His other main problem is how he can now get his entire engine running from Turn 1, which is not what the devs imagined I guess.

[TeddyBear]

Keep in mind that as said before, Nicodem spends is most ap for summoning. Dreamer can do more thing imho. altough his crew must spend ap, as you say.

[Haagrum]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

I'm intrigued. Does the emissary copy the weaver's draw on failed horror duels and the dopple + weaver spams them?

That's the idea. It's not a foolproof plan, or as reliable as the Bloodwretches with The Dreamer, but it can generate a lot of card flow.

[Ludvig]

2 minutes ago, Haagrum said:

That's the idea. It's not a foolproof plan, or as reliable as the Bloodwretches with The Dreamer, but it can generate a lot of card flow.

Ten cards (assuming the dopple hits her trigger) isn't something to be sniffed at but it is a pretty hefty soulstone investment and a lot of their ap will need to be spent on it.

[Haagrum]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

Ten cards isn't something to be sniffed at but it is a pretty hefty soulstone investment and a lot of their ap will need to be spent on it.

You can also summon in Changelings with Mysterious Emissary to copy Widow Weaver's attack.

[whodares]

35 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Keep in mind that as said before, Nicodem spends is most ap for summoning. Dreamer can do more thing imho. altough his crew must spend ap, as you say.

Nicodem's summons come in non-slowed. on more health than Dreamer's summons AND he gets to draw a card for every summon he makes. He can spend an additional corpse marker to heal the summoned model for an extra 4 wounds all for thesame 1 AP.

Meanwhile Dreamer can stone for a non-slowed model, has to spend AP to get models healed up due to his aura working less well after summoning AND has to spend AP for the Playtime condition.

 

It's true that Dreamer can spend more AP on supporting his crew, but Nicodem doesn't care about that. He just gets a card advantage like no other and supports his crew that way. Nicodem can also stay in the back, while Dreamer has to move up or he won't be able to support anymore.

[Ludvig]

Nico's built in abilities are pretty supportive without a single ap spent. People act as if he's useless apart from his one summoning action but he has passive support abilities rivalling some dedicated support masters.  

[4thstringer]

4 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Nico's built in abilities are pretty supportive without a single ap spent. People act as if he's useless apart from his one summoning action but he has passive support abilities rivalling some dedicated support masters.  

Can't nico give fast out?  Nellie has that on an upgrade and it is considered an autotake.

I can get a pretty good card engine going with nellie, but that doesn't mean it is a good idea. (though now that I think about it, I wonder if I could use that card engine to hold onto a bunch of bad cards, to spike the deck for turn two.  hmmm).  

I think I have solved the way nerfs should be handled.  Each errata that comes out, we will handle nerfs by simple vote.  Every forum and AWP member gets one vote, and the master selected through that vote gets nerfed into the ground.  just absolutely Colette treatment.  None of this "we nerfed sandeep by nerfing the wind gamin" business.  TN's go to 20, abilities taken off cards, Cache 0.  That kind of thing.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

41 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Can't nico give fast out?  Nellie has that on an upgrade and it is considered an autotake.

He can, but 80% of the time it's better to summon two AP and an activation than to pass Nicodem's AP to another model, as you probably know. Comparision with Nellie doesn't seem valid to me, as they are played in different kind of crews. Nellie can't summon and her crew is elite, whereas Nicodem's crew we are speaking of consists of engine elements and summoned disposable minions.

[4thstringer]

8 minutes ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

He can, but 80% of the time it's better to summon two AP and an activation than to pass Nicodem's AP to another model, as you probably know. Comparision with Nellie doesn't seem valid to me, as they are played in different kind of crews. Nellie can't summon and her crew is elite, whereas Nicodem's crew we are speaking of consists of engine elements and summoned disposable minions.

Honestly, I only point out Nellie's fast upgrade to point out that all his other actions aren't worthless, which I think was being debated.

[Gnomezilla]

1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

Can't nico give fast out?  Nellie has that on an upgrade and it is considered an autotake.

I can get a pretty good card engine going with nellie, but that doesn't mean it is a good idea. (though now that I think about it, I wonder if I could use that card engine to hold onto a bunch of bad cards, to spike the deck for turn two.  hmmm).  

I think I have solved the way nerfs should be handled.  Each errata that comes out, we will handle nerfs by simple vote.  Every forum and AWP member gets one vote, and the master selected through that vote gets nerfed into the ground.  just absolutely Colette treatment.  None of this "we nerfed sandeep by nerfing the wind gamin" business.  TN's go to 20, abilities taken off cards, Cache 0.  That kind of thing.

YOU NEED TO IMPROVE THOSE NUMBERS! THOSE ARE ROOKIE NUMBERS!

If @Haagrum is telling the truth, and I have no reason to doubt him, for the low low cost of one master AP (plus a stone for the suit if needed), two non-master AP and a minimum of eighteen wounds from my own crew, Guild can mimic Neverborn to the tune of draw eighteen, discard nine.

Of course the crew in question couldn’t hit the enemy, let alone kill, as over half of it is Guild guard (note to self: forgot one), but impractical hypothetical situations are what I live for!

 

...Not that it helped much. Last time I faced Nicodem, I was blessed with a counter-picked crew and a very good hand, and was able to leap in and eliminate him with the first activation of turn two. But I had to commit everything I had to that strike, and didn’t have enough left to slow the Resser crew down even after Hoffman red jokered his damage two more times that game (nerd raaaaaaaaage!). I just had the moral victory while not denying him a single point, just like everyone else before me.

[4thstringer]

11 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

If @Haagrum is telling the truth, and I have no reason to doubt him, for the low low cost of one master AP (plus a stone for the suit if needed), two non-master AP and a minimum of eighteen wounds from my own crew, Guild can mimic Neverborn to the tune of draw eighteen, discard nine.

I must be blind, I cannot find for the life of me how guild does that card draw. Could you quote it for stupid me?

[Gnomezilla]

2 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I must be blind, I cannot find for the life of me how guild does that card draw. Could you quote it for stupid me?

I like to call it the rent-a-wretch program. Hire a bloodwretch and a bunch of targets...Guild guard and brutal emissary, stuff bloodwretch in box preferably out of its activation otherwise it must be made fast, buff up, gun down. Given that fast isn’t actually necessary for this, you could do it with Lucius for flavor. I’m still running the numbers on whether it’s better to be able to shoot twice and double your draw, or just use those stones to hire in more targets...guardsmen to begin with. Same idea as the flesh construct wound battery, hire your crew for maximum wounds per stone. (Which, incidentally, the above Nicodem crew did with a wall of flesh constructs, serene in the knowledge that facing Gnomezilla meant zero chance of a competent Sonnia. And it worked. I had a lot of damage output for my limited AP, but not that much.)

[4thstringer]

2 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

I like to call it the rent-a-wretch program. Hire a bloodwretch and a bunch of targets...Guild guard and brutal emissary, stuff bloodwretch in box preferably out of its activation otherwise it must be made fast, buff up, gun down. Given that fast isn’t actually necessary for this, you could do it with Lucius for flavor. I’m still running the numbers on whether it’s better to be able to shoot twice and double your draw, or just use those stones to hire in more targets...guardsmen to begin with. Same idea as the flesh construct wound battery, hire your crew for maximum wounds per stone. (Which, incidentally, the above Nicodem crew did with a wall of flesh constructs, serene in the knowledge that facing Gnomezilla meant zero chance of a competent Sonnia. And it worked. I had a lot of damage output for my limited AP, but not that much.)

I like it with lucius because at least then the emissary upgrade can heal the gg back up (assuming weak damage).  

[Fetid Strumpet]

The dreamer was needed because his summoning was too resource efficient. It was an absolutely overdue nerf and it absolutely should have happened.

The same thing is now occurring with Nicodem. He has gotten too efficient at summoning, where in the dreamers case it was stones, in nicos case it’s cards. Nicodem draws cards too easily. And once he gets his engine going the act of using cards to summon then generates more cards to summon with, and that more than anything is the biggest issue. The increase in card draw allows him to rely less on SS, because he is going to get the natural crows needed to summon from the deck, which also then makes him more survivable because he will also have better cards for defense, and allows more use of stones for prevention. Summoning should drain resources, period, and the biggest driver and culprit is the undertaker upgrade. Errata that and about 80% plus of Nicodem’s issues will go away. 

I’m not on board with errataing philip. I never felt Philip should have been an actual model but for his cost him seems fair to me, especially considering other models with cars draw in the game.

I’m also less concerned about his easy access to corpses, though that’s only because of the design choice to allow other masters to forgo needing a tertiary resource to summon, something I still argue was an egregious mistake and should be immediately rectified. If that was, yes I’d also want to pair back his access to corpses. 

Introducing a faction wide keyword on selected models to limit his summoning pool would also be totally warranted.