Proposal: A request of evidences, before making any change at game!

[TeddyBear]

Summer erratas are coming. Every day, arise new discussions, about what should be nerfed, and strangely are always "the same peolple" to complain; Nellie, Sandeep, Nicodem, Collodi, Hamelin or Somer.. Always the same masters (Always same one or two for for every factions...)

As player, i sincerly and officially ask at Wyrd, that before any erratas, this is supported at least to some Battlereports or some Results in medium-size tournaments...

It's not possible to see is own models, nerfed every 6 months, just because of same complaints of same 4 people...

For those are agree with me, excuse me for outburst.. for the same people that always complaints for nothing: 

 

now you can cover this topic of minus!!!! 😎

 

 

[Ludvig]

When the proven top players from several different places of the world keep complaining that they want to play other masters but a select few are so good that others aren't even an option I'd say that carries some weight. I'd be pretty surprised if Nico and Sandeep with their current netlist picks weren't touched in some way.

An alternative would be a huge boost to half the masters in the game to make them as good as the proven top dogs but that takes a lot more work than filing the edges down on the filthiest two or three.

I'm not sure if you are aware that erratas are usually playtested before release but it's done in a secret playtest group and no one who participates is allowed to say anything about how thr testing was done.

[TeddyBear]

For the first time i am in disagree with your opinion Ludvig..

16 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

An alternative would be a huge boost to half the masters in the game to make them as good as the proven top dogs but that takes a lot more work than filing the edges down on the filthiest two or three. 

That's what should be done, i know it's a very huge job, but think about who this year, bought Nicodem, and all his models, Or Sandeep with his entire pool.. in my opinion should be more respect for client who spend his own moneys.. nerfes it's not the right way.. buff others could be..

probably i don't follow enough assidously forum, and difficulties with english don't help, but i don't think that top players from around the world complaining about Nicodem or Sandeep, rather i see Always same 5/6/7 people.. all coming from the same nation.. with maximum of 100 posts in this forum (i name no names, of course to prevent polemics, and flames)

You're saying that they are the best players of the world?

i'd be instead very sad, if they change something to Sandeep or Nico, especially as a customer. 

 

 

 

[TeddyBear]

I would like to add one more thing, is it possible that for the reasons i listed up, i haven't followed all debates.. but i never seen someone sayuing: "please nerfing Sandeep that i can't play Kaeris"...

 

[Ludvig]

Do ou listen to the podcasts and follow the facebook discussions on a wyrd place and under the bridge? 

I have no idea who the people posting nerf suggestions on these forums are in real life but the people complaining on AWP and in podcasts have solid tournament records.

Personally I mostly choose to play masters and models that people consider bad because I like trying to figure something out that other have not. The only time a nerf affected me was Sonnia losing the Papa Loco in the box and I agreed that was needed. I can imagine that it sucks to have your favourite models become worse so in that respect it is better to raise the power of the worst masters.

The problem is like some stuff like how many cards Nico can draw while doing what he does is just blatantly overpowered so either Nico maybe shouldn't get to cycle cards when he summons from zombies or every other master needs errata to also draw 10 cards each turn. I think some interactions just shouldn't be available to anyone because they are so hard to balance. You would still need to boost a few masters like Kaeris to make her equal to others but I think bringing some up and some down is better than introducing borderline gamebreaking advantsges to every master as balance.

[TeddyBear]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Do ou listen to the podcasts and follow the facebook discussions on a wyrd place and under the bridge? 

On wyrd place yes, on podcast sadly no, i need subtitles..

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

The only time a nerf affected me was Sonnia losing the Papa Loco in the box and I agreed that was needed. 

No no ... what would it changed if Sonnia don't loosing Papa in box? Absolutely nothing.. certanly was a strong interaction.. but it doesn't changed fate of a game..same thing for channel of Leveticus or his ss cache.

You're taking example of Nicodem, but what do you think about Somer/Crier? Leveticus/Philip and Abominations.. All Nb tricks for drawing With Serena/Thousand Faces?  I can't think of others for moment..

Said all that, instead propose new nerfs why not improve some already existing models maybe with mercenaries car. that for example within area x do not allow enemy model to draw cards? Or maybe that they can recognise mindless zombie like corpse and they can discard them?

i hope it understanding what i mean...sorry for my english

[Dr Mittens]

3 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

For the first time i am in disagree with your opinion Ludvig..

"An alternative would be a huge boost to half the masters in the game to make them as good as the proven top dogs but that takes a lot more work than filing the edges down on the filthiest two or three."

That's what should be done, i know it's a very huge job, but think about who this year, bought Nicodem, and all his models, Or Sandeep with his entire pool.. in my opinion should be more respect for client who spend his own moneys.. nerfes it's not the right way.. buff others could be..

This has been tried in numerous pvp games, and historically results in terrible balance, as in trying to balance everyone around the strongest masters/models in the game, you will inevitably by statistics create new stuff even worse than the old problem. It's also non-sustainable as it constantly forces the power level of the game up, making older models that weren't brought to par unusable and creating a constant sense of power creep.

 

It is both far easier to hit 2-3 outliers than 20 mid tiers, and more sustainable as the prior maintains the current norm of power while the latter warps the whole game around the new standard.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

On wyrd place yes, on podcast sadly no, i need subtitles..

No no ... what would it changed if Sonnia don't loosing Papa in box? Absolutely nothing.. certanly was a strong interaction.. but it doesn't changed fate of a game..same thing for channel of Leveticus or his ss cache.

Duncan Bilz who I believe was around here under the name Godlyness a few years back played Sonnia. He won three or four major events with the exact same list in two different GGs. After the Loco errata he has kept playing Sonnia but hasn't done as well (but still does well with her I believe). The difference between having Locos buff on Sonnia automatically without risking an enemy sniper doing tons of damage by killing him and not having to worry at all about positioning was huge. It also mean Loco usually popped out and blasted away a bunch of enemies because he could reliably be delivered. These days if you do an aggressive Sonnia push turn one to reach things the buff from Loco will be dropping turn two because he won't be able to keep up. Sonnia will still likely get to use it because she will go before him turn 2 but she won't have it for as long as she pleases and the enemy can cause Sonnia's crew large amounts of damage by killing Loco. You are also pretty much required to take the upgrade that lets you ignore obeys against many factions because you cannot risk them making him explode himself and talking more than half your crew with him. He is also a lot more difficult to deliver into a nice place to blow up without the marshal because on the turn where he could previously let the marshal move him by charging and trying to box on enemy to have Loco pop out and companion with both his ap he will these days need to spend those ap walking up to the enemy and then wait a turn before blowing up in the same spot where he was blowing up with the box trick. It definitely affected my play with Sonnia.

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You're taking example of Nicodem, but what do you think about Somer/Crier? Leveticus/Philip and Abominations.. All Nb tricks for drawing With Serena/Thousand Faces?  I can't think of others for moment..

Said all that, instead propose new nerfs why not improve some already existing models maybe with mercenaries car. that for example within area x do not allow enemy model to draw cards? Or maybe that they can recognise mindless zombie like corpse and they can discard them?

i hope it understanding what i mean...sorry for my english

I think I understand you and I don't mind at all that we don't agree. I may be way off base, I am certainly not at the top level of players but I do see what masters are being played by people who get 1st 2nd and 3rd place at my tournaments as well as try to keep up somewhat with others. Before the Levi nerf you saw an awful lot of Levi on top tables. Channel made the difference between Levi killing more or less any model in the game no matter their defenses (except for unfortunate jokers) to Levi being scary to models with some defenses but not killing anything by just looking at it. I would argue that removing the rat engine was probably a bigger hit though, that happened at the same time and let me tell you: it was not fun facing Levi or Viks with a rat engine. I had faced Levi when the player wasn't using a rat engine and Levi was strong but I wasn't really convinced he needed a nerf. With the rat engine though, there was practically nothing you could do to keep pressure because by the time your entire list was done he wasn't even done cycling rats and then he could deliver himself and a couple of solid beaters after you had lost any chance to react. If the rat engine had stayed available to any outcast I'm not sure what to do to let others have fun games against outcasts.

I think card draw has gotten out of hand. There should be a hard cap on how many cards a crew was allowed to draw during a turn or at least how big of a hand you could have at any time. It is a ridiculously strong advantage.

[4thstringer]

I'm pro Nerf, but honestly I don't play enough tournaments so it doesn't effect my quality of life that much if they don't.

[Zebo]

I think that Malufaux is a game really well balanced. There's some troops harder to play or exploit than others, but in good hands many many troops can shine. 

 

Of course, there's some models obviously over the rest, and others really under (or usually less good/cheap that others that can do the same better), but those models are the exception. 

 

I think it's better and easier to nerf/boost the few models out of balance that buff every model but the strongers. 

 

That said, Von Schill keep being too expensive for what he puts up over the table, his new upgrades are really good, but I think that a Cache 1 master should be most productive without spending more ss. Also the Freikorpsmann are too expensive. 

 

And I would bet for some more nerfs to Gremlins, they are too OP. 

 

XD

[TeddyBear]

54 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Duncan Bilz who I believe was around here under the name Godlyness a few years back played Sonnia. He won three or four major events with the exact same list in two different GGs. After the Loco errata he has kept playing Sonnia but hasn't done as well (but still does well with her I believe). The difference between having Locos buff on Sonnia automatically without risking an enemy sniper doing tons of damage by killing him and not having to worry at all about positioning was huge. It also mean Loco usually popped out and blasted away a bunch of enemies because he could reliably be delivered. These days if you do an aggressive Sonnia push turn one to reach things the buff from Loco will be dropping turn two because he won't be able to keep up. Sonnia will still likely get to use it because she will go before him turn 2 but she won't have it for as long as she pleases and the enemy can cause Sonnia's crew large amounts of damage by killing Loco. You are also pretty much required to take the upgrade that lets you ignore obeys against many factions because you cannot risk them making him explode himself and talking more than half your crew with him. He is also a lot more difficult to deliver into a nice place to blow up without the marshal because on the turn where he could previously let the marshal move him by charging and trying to box on enemy to have Loco pop out and companion with both his ap he will these days need to spend those ap walking up to the enemy and then wait a turn before blowing up in the same spot where he was blowing up with the box trick. It definitely affected my play with Sonnia. 

I think I understand you and I don't mind at all that we don't agree. I may be way off base, I am certainly not at the top level of players but I do see what masters are being played by people who get 1st 2nd and 3rd place at my tournaments as well as try to keep up somewhat with others. Before the Levi nerf you saw an awful lot of Levi on top tables. Channel made the difference between Levi killing more or less any model in the game no matter their defenses (except for unfortunate jokers) to Levi being scary to models with some defenses but not killing anything by just looking at it. I would argue that removing the rat engine was probably a bigger hit though, that happened at the same time and let me tell you: it was not fun facing Levi or Viks with a rat engine. I had faced Levi when the player wasn't using a rat engine and Levi was strong but I wasn't really convinced he needed a nerf. With the rat engine though, there was practically nothing you could do to keep pressure because by the time your entire list was done he wasn't even done cycling rats and then he could deliver himself and a couple of solid beaters after you had lost any chance to react. If the rat engine had stayed available to any outcast I'm not sure what to do to let others have fun games against outcasts.

Rat engine was very wrong, and changes all game dynamic.. in fact i didn't mentioned it.

Actually in my opinion Reva is not different from old Levi, everything she looks, die badly ; but i don't think she should be nerfed.. what do you think?

54 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I think card draw has gotten out of hand. There should be a hard cap on how many cards a crew was allowed to draw during a turn or at least how big of a hand you could have at any time. It is a ridiculously strong advantage. 

Ok, but not only for Nico..also for other factions models that i listed up.. What if the fact that a master can draw much cards, serves instead to offset some weakness that other masters don't have?

Duncan Bilz, stopped plays with Sonnia that you know? 

Edit: i would add also that only person who wins all tournament, can't be a parameter to determine if a master should be nerfed..instead a bunch of people maybe with some battlereports, game videos, it's different.. this is what i'm asking..

[Ludvig]

29 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Rat engine was very wrong, and changes all game dynamic.. in fact i didn't mentioned it.

Actually in my opinion Reva is not different from old Levi, everything she looks, die badly ; but i don't think she should be nerfed.. what do you think?

I think releasing Reva closely after Levi's nerf is a bad joke. She is so similar to him in so many ways that I don't see why they nerfed Levi's attack aspect in the first place. At least she isn't immortal.

Quote

Ok, but not only for Nico..also for other factions models that i listed up.. What if the fact that a master can draw much cards, serves instead to offset some weakness that other masters don't have?

What weakness does Nico have compared to others? It's often not only the master draw, the ability to just stack models with card draw is bad in my opinion. The Nico list has an awful lot of card draw apart from Nico which is extra powerful with summoning. The balancing factor for summoning is that sometimes you don't have the reources (cards) to summon exactly what you need, with a silly draw engine you get those cards. Summoners also often lose tempo because they need to get the engine going so the opponent is supposed to have a chance to dominate early game before getting tabled. Nico can summon a model to alphastrike you far far into the board and none of his summons are ever slow so he negates the main drawbacks of being a summoner in the first place. Every good player trying to teach you how to face a summoner tells you to attack their resources, often referring to cards and ss and to get your schemes done early.

Quote

Duncan Bilz, stopped plays with Sonnia that you know? 

No he kept playing her. Didn't do bad in any way but wasn't unstoppable anymore. He keeps dropping a ridiculous amount of comments about burning things over at AWP.  

Quote

Edit: i would add also that only person who wins all tournament, can't be a parameter to determine if a master should be nerfed..instead a bunch of people maybe with some battlereports, game videos, it's different.. this is what i'm asking..

After a master becomes very prominent in several tournaments there will be battle reports, sometimes in the form of podcasts and sometimes written reports. Just because you don't see the reports does not mean no one is writing and sharing them with the developers.

[edopersichetti]

The most complained about are Sandeep and Nico, I believe. I'd be surprised if they weren't toned down a bit - it would be about time.

Nico is insane, and I strongly support the idea of a limit to card draw - perhaps a limit of cards in hand? But at least Ressers have other options. To be honest, the situation with Sandeep is even more ridiculous - currently, in Arcanists there is no reason to play anything else than Sandeep. I've been in tournaments where every Arcanist player fielded Sandeep in at least 2/3 rounds out of 4, if not all 4. That isn't good - it isn't fun for opponents and it isn't fair for Arcanist players that would like to play something else.

Don't worry - Nico and Sandeep players will come to terms with the fact that they now have to actually put a little effort to win their games, rather than simply push the auto-win button

@Zebo: phew, for a moment thought you were serious  
Let's hope this time Gremlins get away this time at least - they've been pummeled mercilessly in the last few erratas, and they have the worst Wave 5 among all factions. There's very little left to nerf before destroying the faction completely!

[TeddyBear]

anyways guys, i don't know what tell you.. you all seems all agree, that nicodem and sandeep should be nerfed.. i reapeat, for me, should not be nerfed.. 

or at least, enable all to understand motivations especially in this forum (which should be a reference for all players) and no in podcast or facebook discussions.

i'm sorry for people who invested moneys, and who love tournaments.

And i will not go into a relation about secret playtesting before errata, "that are not so secret"..

 

[whodares]

9 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

anyways guys, i don't know what tell you.. you all seems all agree, that nicodem and sandeep should be nerfed.. i reapeat, for me, should not be nerfed.. 

or at least, enable all to understand motivations especially in this forum (which should be a reference for all players) and no in podcast or facebook discussions.

i'm sorry for people who invested moneys, and who love tournaments. 

What I read from this is that you are either a Nicodem or Sandeep player and you're scared of actually having to put in effort into winning.

My meta is not that big, but any tournament those masters show up, they win. And not just win, but win by a landslide. They win so hard and so easily it's not even funny anymore.

 

By your logic no nerf should ever happen. Removing the rat engine was a mistake then, because what about the people that invested money to get rats with Levi? What about Dreamer players after his nerf? ...

As several posters have mentioned already: buffing other masters is not really an option. I've seen it happen in other games. Sometimes it becomes so bad you HAVE to win Turn 1 or you are set back so much you auto-lose. Imagine buffing up the Viks some more giving them a 10-card hand. I'm pretty sure they would destroy anyone as you have enough cards to both Whirlwind and defend afterwards from whatever is still alive.

Imagine any other summoner getting the resources of Nicodem. Actually, that might just make him balanced and onto par with all the other summoning masters. A possible way to do this for Dreamer: draw a card on summoning + draw a card when a daydream sacrifices + draw a card when something heals from your aura + draw 6 cards when LCB is summoned. Now he can come close to the amount of power Nicodem has, but I'm not sure we're at his draw engine power yet

A bit over the top, but it should prove a point: buffing other masters just isn't viable and would create a very unfun way to play the game. It would overcomplicate it as well.

[Ludvig]

@TeddyBear That's a valid opinion and I'm sure there are others that agree.

What I don't see why the developers shouldn't take in information from other channels than these forums. A developer will call the shots on which models seem problematic and they are going to use all info available to them. A wyrd place is an official wyrd page these days so them not listening to anything stated there seems really weird. The devs aren't required to tell us why that particular model caught their eye, sometimes it's a rule just not working as intended and sometimes it's a pure balance thing. It's usually easy to guess by googling and checking if there are 10+ salt threads or 10+ "how the hell does this work?!" threads.  

A small point that seems to often get missed. The point of a nerf isn't to make a model unplayable but to make it equally playable as other models so you shouldn't really need to feel sorry for those playing whatever got nerfed unless it misses the mark significantly.

To anyone who hates having their stuff nerfed I have a great tip. Ask in the faction forum for the absolute worst master available. Pick that master and you won't have trouble with nerfs in a long while. There are plenty of ranking posts on these forums at regular intervals. Also note that Kaeris who regularly catches a lot of flak have won the occasional tournament. If you get to tournament winning level with Kaeris you may be in for a treat if she ever gets a boost.

[TeddyBear]

2 minutes ago, whodares said:

What I read from this is that you are either a Nicodem or Sandeep player and you're scared of actually having to put in effort into winning. 

Already here you're wrong i have almost all masters and models of malifaux 😁

3 minutes ago, whodares said:

By your logic no nerf should ever happen. Removing the rat engine was a mistake then, because what about the people that invested money to get rats with Levi? What about Dreamer players after his nerf? ...

Removing rat engine was not a mistake,  before do that, there were some threads in this forum that speak about rat-engine, any players have had a chance to understand wrong potential of rat-engine in crews like Levi, o Vikies. That's what missing in others nerfs! I oppose nerfs, unless they are be motivated well.

let's no argue  about moneys.. there are differences between who buy two box of rats and 100000 box of sandeep models or nicodem.

12 minutes ago, whodares said:

As several posters have mentioned already: buffing other masters is not really an option. I've seen it happen in other games. Sometimes it becomes so bad you HAVE to win Turn 1 or you are set back so much you auto-lose. Imagine buffing up the Viks some more giving them a 10-card hand. I'm pretty sure they would destroy anyone as you have enough cards to both Whirlwind and defend afterwards from whatever is still alive.

 I repeat again: "instead propose new nerfs why not improve some already existing models maybe with mercenaries car. that for example within area x do not allow enemy model to draw cards? Or maybe that they can recognise mindless zombie like corpse and they can discard them? "  ...nobody answered..

14 minutes ago, whodares said:

Imagine any other summoner getting the resources of Nicodem. Actually, that might just make him balanced and onto par with all the other summoning masters. A possible way to do this for Dreamer: draw a card on summoning + draw a card when a daydream sacrifices + draw a card when something heals from your aura + draw 6 cards when LCB is summoned. Now he can come close to the amount of power Nicodem has, but I'm not sure we're at his draw engine power yet 

hahahaha that's make me smile.. i've Dreamer.. and if he's a master that don't drawing a tons of cards, i don't know nothing about malifaux... 

[TeddyBear]

14 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

What I don't see why the developers shouldn't take in information from other channels than these forums. A developer will call the shots on which models seem problematic and they are going to use all info available to them. A wyrd place is an official wyrd page these days so them not listening to anything stated there seems really weird. The devs aren't required to tell us why that particular model caught their eye

I'm not saying that (developers can take infos for where they want) i'm just saying, that would be more correct if when there are new nerfes are supported by good reason, most obvious evidences.. only this.

[Ludvig]

15 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

I'm not saying that (developers can take infos for where they want) i'm just saying, that would be more correct if when there are new nerfes are supported by good reason, most obvious evidences.. only this.

I can only assume they have reasons for whatever they pick, the ones they pick are usually pretty obvious to a lot of players even if there have been a couple of surprises. I can also only assume that they test their errata suggestions. An errata is always a risk so you would probably not just want to throw a dice to see what you changed but try to make it balanced.

[TeddyBear]

4 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I can only assume they have reasons for whatever they pick, the ones they pick are usually pretty obvious to a lot of players even if there have been a couple of surprises. I can also only assume that they test their errata suggestions. An errata is always a risk so you would probably not just want to throw a dice to see what you changed but try to make it balanced. 

Speaking of which, you don't think that Nico is perceived by all, so strong also for natural affinity that his ressers models have to scoring gg2018? Probabily same thing for Sandeep?

[Ludvig]

Not really. Nico was a force to be reckoned with back since the book schemes but a lot of people got into the idea that you couldn't play a summoner because you might run out of time and they need the entire game to get their full potential. These days people finish games and schemes score differently, as well as Nico getting some ridiculously good synergies which pushed him up. Nico will be strong pretty much whatever happens to schemes I think. Aside from like silly shit like: score if your opponent summons in each game, but that won't happen.

[edopersichetti]

6 hours ago, whodares said:

What I read from this is that you are either a Nicodem or Sandeep player and you're scared of actually having to put in effort into winning.

My meta is not that big, but any tournament those masters show up, they win. And not just win, but win by a landslide. They win so hard and so easily it's not even funny anymore.

This. +100. If someone invested their money in a master or model just because they're ridiculously powerful, that someone needs to grow up as a player. What I always loved about Malifaux is that every master and crew always has a shot at winning, depending on matchups, skill, and even luck. Heck, I've seen people win games despite ending the game with no models alive! If some masters are way over the top, it is only right that they are brought back in line, just to give everyone a fair chance.

I've been playing long enough to witness this in action: I played Levi before and after the Channel change, same for Ophelia and the change to Lenny's aura, and Dreamer and the change to Daydreams suit. All of the above are just three examples of master nerfs who were actually useful and helped balance the game. Levi still kicks ass, same for Dreamer, and Ophelia is still playable (although in a different way, and a different crew). I have a gripe about Colette - the Prompt nerf was ham-fisted and excessive and she's now subpar - but I think one bad errata among many good ones is rather the exception, than the rule.
 

6 hours ago, whodares said:

As several posters have mentioned already: buffing other masters is not really an option. I've seen it happen in other games. Sometimes it becomes so bad you HAVE to win Turn 1 or you are set back so much you auto-lose. Imagine buffing up the Viks some more giving them a 10-card hand. I'm pretty sure they would destroy anyone as you have enough cards to both Whirlwind and defend afterwards from whatever is still alive.

Pretty much what happened to Magic the Gathering, basically you either have a win in Turn X (1,2,3) or you're done. No game should go that route.

[TeddyBear]

2 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

This. +100. 

What are you saying? I don't understand this +100..

[TeddyBear]

@edopersichettiAh, i don't invest my money in models, just because are powerful, precisely.. ok?

[Haagrum]

30 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

What are you saying? I don't understand this +100..

@edopersichetti was expressing strong support for the ideas in the post quoted.

My $0.02 is that combinations or effects which 'break the game' should be scrutinised closely, by people who get far more game time than me. People tend to scream 'broken!' or 'OP!' far too quickly, when there's often a way around it. The Som'er Warpig list is an example - Hans' Rams trigger reliably neuters the main threat and makes it a mostly fair fight.

The Rat Engine was one such problem with no counter but to play the same trick. The solution was appropriate - limit it to the master whose entire gimmick is massive out-activation shenanigans.

Prompt got nerfed because it gave up to 3 more AP to whichever model in Colette's crew could use it most effectively. That nerf probably went a little far, partly because of GG18 and partly because Colette isn't Sandeep.

I'd like to see some limit on card draw and summoning in future, having taken a vicious beating from such lists in the past. I don't have an easy answer - Nicodem is vicious with multiple models being summoned each turn, but Kirai needs her Seishin spam and Ikiryo to function. As ever, we'll see what happens next July.