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Fictor

The AWESOME Colette (Nop)

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1 hour ago, LeperColony said:

As a Collette main, I would have preferred raising the TN on subsequent uses (or, less favorably, adding a suit).  I'm not sure why Wyrd doesn't take more advantage of TN increase as a balancing mechanic, because I think it's a potential way of adding decision points to play, rather than heavy handed prohibitions.

Or, if they wanted to push theme more (which I think generally they should, as a rule), they could have allowed Colette to Prompt again if the target was a Showgirl (so if you Prompt only Showgirls, you could still do 3x, but if you Prompt another model, it ends the Prompt opportunity).  Though I think there you may start to run into text length issues on the card.

The thing about Command abilities that makes balancing them difficult is that they essentially it is really a two-tiered process.  Both the Command ability itself, but then the range of obedient models have to be considered as well.

 

i really wish the prompt showgirl thing was actually written, its not hard to do just add "unless target is showgirl" on the "target cannot be prompted again against the same target"

 

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Like some nights, yesterday, I was review the upgrades and while was reading Colette's...

Did you read Audience Participation!?

Let's read together:

  • 0Ap, you can only take it one time
  • no dmg
  • 8" treat
  • 2ss upgrade, you need stones + slot
  • TN 14:tome:tome, so you need 7:tome
  • You can only target minions
  • Must be unactivated minion
  • Need be within 3" of a allied Scheme Marker

Now compare with a fucking trigger on Collodi attack:

  • 1Ap, 3 or 4 times per activation if you gain fast vs only 1
  • 2/3/4 with :+flip on dmg vs 0 dmg
  • 10" treat... 2" more
  • No upgrade, no slot and no stones needed
  • You need the additional :mask, but you only need win the duel, not TN
  •  You can target all non-Leader miniatures
  • Can target activated non-Leader miniatures
  • Doesn't need Markers

Yes the upgrade in addition gives Focus on :aura 8" of Colette to minion-showgirls, that's is in all the game: Performer + Ice-Dancer + Oiran (mercenary), thx for it, yeah, it's op upgrade...

Take this shit and burn it please...

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Whilst everything you say is true, you are twisting it quite largely. And 've never liked the pull the string action, I've thought it was too good since the public playtest. So yes the trigger on Collodi is better, but that doesn't make Colettes action bad by default.

a simple duel vs an opposed duel is a huge difference. ( You can garentee a simple duel if you know where the black joker is, where as you have less control over the opposed duel. Its rare that the 7:maskwill win you the attack. And even then you need to not black joker the damage, and not have it all reduced. Sometimes a lower card will also succeed, but you can't know what will be enough before you take the action)

the trigger is an after damaging trigger, so unreliable on soulstone users.

The trigger also competes with 2 other triggers on the action, so its not like its a case of you stealing an AP or do nothing. You are going to be giving up at least slow for the AP steal.

 

Stealing enemy AP is strong. now 2 masters can not only steal the AP, but use it. Before the upgrade it was 1. Is it an always take upgrade? No. But as a (0) action its a pretty decent (0) action. It might be a little too restricted to see reagular play, but I know in most games I've played I could have used it to make a difference.

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3 hours ago, Adran said:

Whilst everything you say is true, you are twisting it quite largely. And 've never liked the pull the string action, I've thought it was too good since the public playtest. So yes the trigger on Collodi is better, but that doesn't make Colettes action bad by default.

a simple duel vs an opposed duel is a huge difference. ( You can garentee a simple duel if you know where the black joker is, where as you have less control over the opposed duel. Its rare that the 7:maskwill win you the attack. And even then you need to not black joker the damage, and not have it all reduced. Sometimes a lower card will also succeed, but you can't know what will be enough before you take the action)

the trigger is an after damaging trigger, so unreliable on soulstone users.

The trigger also competes with 2 other triggers on the action, so its not like its a case of you stealing an AP or do nothing. You are going to be giving up at least slow for the AP steal.

 

Stealing enemy AP is strong. now 2 masters can not only steal the AP, but use it. Before the upgrade it was 1. Is it an always take upgrade? No. But as a (0) action its a pretty decent (0) action. It might be a little too restricted to see reagular play, but I know in most games I've played I could have used it to make a difference.

It’s nice that this is a simple duel. It’s a shame that it’s another 2 point upgrade. I think it would have been nice if they would have dropped one of the three restrictions (minion, hasn’t activated, close to a scheme marker).

I do think this potentially a sleeper upgrade that will get good if a Showgirl minion that can really make good use of focus is released. If that happens, the upgrade might be worth bringing just for the free focus and the delayed obey would be a nice bonus if it’s something you can end up using.

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5 hours ago, Adran said:

a simple duel vs an opposed duel is a huge difference. ( You can garentee a simple duel if you know where the black joker is, where as you have less control over the opposed duel. Its rare that the 7:maskwill win you the attack. And even then you need to not black joker the damage, and not have it all reduced. Sometimes a lower card will also succeed, but you can't know what will be enough before you take the action)

 

Barring an enemy red joker, you're guaranteed a success on a wp 5 model with an 11, wp 6 on a 12. You'll probably be cheating for the suit anyway. 

8 hours ago, Fictor said:

Yes the upgrade in addition gives Focus on :aura 8" of Colette to minion-showgirls, that's is in all the game: Performer + Ice-Dancer + Oiran (mercenary), thx for it, yeah, it's op upgrade...

You have Corphyee too. It's too bad Assassin's gift  is a (2), I think Oiran could really benefit from free focus. 

My experience with this upgrade is the delayed Obey is too situational to be used. 

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56 minutes ago, grim_stoki said:

Barring an enemy red joker, you're guaranteed a success on a wp 5 model with an 11, wp 6 on a 12. You'll probably be cheating for the suit anyway. 

Will you be cheating for the suit much? With Colette's free soulstone to add a suit each turn, needing the suit seems like less of an issue..

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7 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Will you be cheating for the suit much? With Colette's free soulstone to add a suit each turn, needing the suit seems like less of an issue..

I was referring to Collodi's attack, and that a cast 7 is guaranteed under certain (not uncommon) circumstances. 

Maybe I've lost track of this "thread?

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30 minutes ago, grim_stoki said:

I was referring to Collodi's attack, and that a cast 7 is guaranteed under certain (not uncommon) circumstances. 

Maybe I've lost track of this "thread?

Nah, I see where you are coming from. 

I also see where you did there.

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26 minutes ago, grim_stoki said:

I was referring to Collodi's attack, and that a cast 7 is guaranteed under certain (not uncommon) circumstances. 

Maybe I've lost track of this "thread?

I've lost games when all I needed was a ml 6 model hit a df 1 model because they flipped the red joker, so my hand was no use. Ca 7 is good, but there are models with wp 10. I don't like to think of any opposed duel as garenteed, as even if you have a higher stat, and cards in hand to beat them, there are still 3 flips in this case that can ruin it. 

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14 hours ago, Adran said:

I've lost games when all I needed was a ml 6 model hit a df 1 model because they flipped the red joker, so my hand was no use. Ca 7 is good, but there are models with wp 10. I don't like to think of any opposed duel as garenteed, as even if you have a higher stat, and cards in hand to beat them, there are still 3 flips in this case that can ruin it. 

Wait - you've lost games to that? As in more than one? Holy crap it must've been frustrating the second time it happened!

(As to your actual point, I most definitely agree - opposed duels are tricky and surefire things backfire surprisingly often)

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7 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Wait - you've lost games to that? As in more than one? Holy crap it must've been frustrating the second time it happened!

(As to your actual point, I most definitely agree - opposed duels are tricky and surefire things backfire surprisingly often)

Murphy was an optimist.

The amount of important turns I've lost Initiative in the last month or so, with Seize the Day, is frustrating. Of something like 12 turns of importance,  I didn't win a single one. I didn't need the reminder that fate happens, but it has definitely been a reminder tap to the junk, especially when your opponent affects your odds. I also failed three important Alpha attempts, because of Black Jokers (two flipping the bastard on the Alpha attempt, once flipping it on the Shillelagh attack needing to turn Beast).

Hell, the last time I won Initiative on an important turn, it was after Marcus had died, and I was straight flipping. Because of course.

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@Morgan Vening this is getting off topic, but you really should just stop taking Seize the Day!

Back on topic, looking at Colette, she's such a unique master aesthetic- and theme-wise. What other wargame has a crew made up of burlesque performers?

Sadly, she's really not great.  I actually think more than any other master she needs a full Errata. Everything she does just has too many hoops to jump through and all competes for the same resources. Everything needs Scheme Markers (which aren't actually that easy to get out the amount that she needs). Everything needs Masks. The cuddle to Prompt was too much and probably should have been one attack only or showgirls or minions only, but it's not just that.  Everything else on her card and upgrades needs a boost/ss decrease to actually be master-level. It's just so frustrating, no other master actively works against herself.

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Colette is great imo. Sure, Collodi is better but I think Collodi has been one of the strongest masters in the game for a good minute and got some serious buffing in Wave 5 for some reason.

As I said in the other Colette thread, when you're building her crew you're not looking for the biggest, killiest models. You're building to give yourself options and score points. Toolbox minions like the Union Miners and Performers are bread and butter for her. The Slateridge Mauler probably fits in that category now that the price has gone down.

You do have to build the crew for the table, for the schemes and strats, and then just don't worry about trying to table your opponent. Dance around them, refuse engagement, and score your points.

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I’m come here hoping to find a way that I’ve not considered to play Colette ,that is my favourite and best painted master...

But we all think that is probably one of the worst master in game...

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I mean, run her with a large crew of union miners, performers, and midrange beaters that benefit from marker spam - Envy, Large Arachnids spring to mind. 

Her new upgrade to let her take Saber Trick as a (1) is super useful for spamming out slow and decent damage and the triggers on her main attack are useful if situational.

All Together Now is great for scoring some tricky schemes like Recover Evidence.

Prompt is still great - it's pretty comparable to Lucius' Issue Command action (which is also limited to once per turn). 

She's not bad, she just doesn't compare to an OP master like Collodi.

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I played yesterday game with Colette, she stood all the game in paralease, did not perform any action for the game, and won the game thanks to her ability "Rehearsed" and their DF triggers, as for me it's just an excellent master

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I had a fun game recently using Colette's Rehearsed, Cassie with Practiced Production, a Performer and Mannequin, and Howard Langston with Well Rehearsed.

Between the four of them (actually not counting Colette bar her aura) Howard is just silly mobile - Cassie's Prompt, and four Scheme Marker pushes, on top of Nimble, can put him comfortably in threat range of a large chunk of the board. Handily, this also laid a field of Disappearing Act nodes up the board to fling the rest of the girls at when Colette activated.

Admittedly I got nothing done with Howard, because I've not used him for a year or more and so forgotten how to play with him, but it's another model that a Colette crew can throw around the board willy nilly.

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