My thoughts on Torakage & the 5-6ss minions

[Da Git]

So I've actually been trying out a bit of a Last Blossom themed crew for a beginner-friendly tournament and it turns out that Torakage aren't actually all that bad.  The problem is that there are just better choices. We then kind of moved on to talking the whole 10T 5-6ss minions range.  I was really surprised to see Torakage didn't go down to 5ss in the last errata, but then I thought really, it doesn't matter anyway, as 10T bros & (the soon to be released Charm Warders are just so much better.  Moving Terracotta to 6 was a good move and I'd actually like to see 10T bros & Charm Warders go to 6 as well.  I think they're both on bar with Lotus Eaters, Obsidian Oni and Terracotta. 

This would also actually give people a reason to look at the other 5ss minions: HR monks, Komainu, Oiran, & Torakage (once errata'd to 5ss).  These models just don't see enough tabletime due to the Bros just being better for the same (or less) cost.

Another model I'd really like to see dropped is Tengu.  For 4ss they're way too easy to kill and can't run off on their own as they then lose out their best Ability in Shooting Star. They're kind of like the Guild Guard were; they sucked by themselves, but sucked as a pair as now it's 8ss.  Dropping them to 3ss (and maybe making them Rare 3, none of this 16 Tengu list bull-poo!) would give them a real niche in the faction as the only 3ss model and a good dedicated scheme runner duo.  It might also see Feigned Weakness be taken too on Asami...

[anencephalous]

I have pretty much stopped taking Terracotta at six. Even 10T bros at five, who are awesome at that price, are usually too expensive for my tastes. Because our faction is so tied around well supported, Recalled Trained models, I find that the difference between two five point models, and two four point models, is far outweighed by a two point cost increase in the second beater (or support or whatever).

It just doesnt really matter who the low models are, they need to run objectives, tar pit and be an activation. Most turns they dont get cards, so the abilities on them just are not that relevant.

I will not buy Lotus Eaters at six, because I know I will never find a spot for them. Charm Warders are pretty good, but if/when the disguised gets nurfed back to what was intended, I wouldnt buy one at six cost.

The only six cost model I really go for in TT is Yamaziko. Compare her card to a 10T bro or a Charm Warden and tell me they should cost the same?

However, I am a fan of changes to Tengu, which are terribad. The advantage of dropping them to three is that there is no risk of someone spamming them, like Guild Guard.

[DonCheadle]

I've given some thought to this, and have come to the (premature) conclusion that TTBs are amazing at their costs, but not quite valuable enough to be worth 6 points. 

At 5 SS, our models worth taking include the TTB, the Charm Warder, the Rail Worker, the Bunraku, the Komainu, the Tanuki and the Yokai, with the last five not being mainstays but having their respective & respectable niches. 

I do agree Torakage could've used a drop, but who knows, perhaps they wanted to buff them instead of lowering their costs and are waiting until June, like I wished they'd done with the HRM (increasing their damage spread by 1 but costing 6).

A man can hope, eh? 

I think our early release subpar minions could use a little love, but overall we are an elite faction, and making Tengu cheaper would buff Asami, which isn't necessary. 

[newsun]

10t Bros already barely see play time now. 5ss is fine for them. Terracotta at 6 is out now for me too. Torakage at 5 would be considered at least. 10t struggles in the 2-4ss range more than this spot.

[Haagrum]

Terracotta Warriors are still good at 6 SS, depending on your master. That said, they're probably better for the masters that can hire them out-of-faction than for most 10T masters (I maintain that they're still great for Brewmaster).

Model comparisons on cost don't necessarily make sense. It's always a question of roles and where the model fits with the rest of the crew, the schemes and the strategy in any game. If you're getting multiple benefits from a model that are more or less unique to it, or which synergise with your crew, the SS cost comparison based on attacks, damage tracks and stats misses the point.

For example, I swear by Fermented River Monks in Brewmaster, because they're cheap, can hit surprisingly hard, go for the weak/non-trigger stat on any attack, and are easy to Reactivate. Still, they tend to fly under the radar when a Whiskey Golem and another beater are on the table, until one Reactivates and then clobbers a key model using Drunken Strength. I've never seen anyone else use one in any game I've played or watched, though.

TL;DR - Go with what works for you. Internet wisdom isn't necessarily authoritative, or conducive to a fun game.

[Piccio]

Uhm I think Torakage is still ok with McCabe, but also the 5pt high river can benefit from his sword and now is cheaper. 6 to every stats and free desingaging is nice but now there are many models with ml6/7.

Many 5-6SS minions now suffer the competition of the cheapest enchmen/enforcers, chiaki's ranged removal condition is really usefull with gg2018, yamaziko now is really cheap, with a bit more points we have graves, boss and sunquiang...  due the emissary and 0ss upgrades models who can take upgrades are generally a bit better.

Terracotta are a bit overpriced for 4wounds and wp4. I take one of them only if I plan to switch upgrades more than 1 time or if I suppose I can suffer eavy alfa who can kill my key model in just one activation.

 

[Mxbedlam]

On 4/28/2018 at 3:07 AM, anencephalous said:

I have pretty much stopped taking Terracotta at six. Even 10T bros at five, who are awesome at that price, are usually too expensive for my tastes. Because our faction is so tied around well supported, Recalled Trained models, I find that the difference between two five point models, and two four point models, is far outweighed by a two point cost increase in the second beater (or support or whatever).

It just doesnt really matter who the low models are, they need to run objectives, tar pit and be an activation. Most turns they dont get cards, so the abilities on them just are not that relevant.

I will not buy Lotus Eaters at six, because I know I will never find a spot for them. Charm Warders are pretty good, but if/when the disguised gets nurfed back to what was intended, I wouldnt buy one at six cost.

The only six cost model I really go for in TT is Yamaziko. Compare her card to a 10T bro or a Charm Warden and tell me they should cost the same?

However, I am a fan of changes to Tengu, which are terribad. The advantage of dropping them to three is that there is no risk of someone spamming them, like Guild Guard.

You should definitely give Lotus Eaters a try. In a scheme heavy pool they are a world of frustration for your opponent and just eat all the things. I've played them twice now with huge amounts of success. Charm Warders I feel like are pretty essential in the moment for most of our crews. 

Also Ten T bros and Charm Warders are 5 and Yama is 6. The biggest downside to her in my opinion is her awful Df and mediocre melee stats. 

[anencephalous]

I played the Lotus Eater's pretty extensively during the beta. I just could not find a way to use a six point scheme runner who needs at least a 10 (!!!) to get any extra movement, and even then it is conditional. Billed as a anti-scheme runner style scheme runner, this model really doesn't have anything useful left printed on the card.

There is probably a card drop crew that uses Threaten, but outside of something niche like that I would never reach for this model. I won't buy them.

Charm Warders are good, no doubts about that. Although some of that is due to the dubious wording of the Charm of Hiding. If and when that is fixed it will help tone them down. But at six points, I don't know, I just cannot see them as being worthwhile.

I was comparing 6 point TT and six point Charm Warders to Yamaziko, because that was the original post. I thought Yamaziko was good even at seven, and I frequently stack her with Smoke Grenades, making her eight (now seven).

In our meta, lures and snipers are pretty common, and so a model that can ignore pretty much all lures, while also taking a full five point sniper severe and still running schemes is great. She is mobile, she can put down two scheme markers in a turn, her engagement range is useful, and once in a while her attacks are devastating. Min 3 damage on a six point model? With an AoE attached? So good.

At the very least she wins duels verses other scheme runners. She is in all ways the model Lotus Eaters dream of being in their drug fuelled euphoric haze.

[Bumpasses]

On 4/28/2018 at 7:10 PM, newsun said:

10t Bros already barely see play time now. 5ss is fine for them.

Hmmm, I just used them with Shen in a game against Lucious, heavy scheme marker set up.

They were awesome.

Only reason I dont run them a ton anymore is because I am filling both merc slots.

I dont really see a true contender for them in that slot, maybe the screaming monkeys.

 

Why have you stopped running them?

[newsun]

18 minutes ago, Bumpasses said:

Hmmm, I just used them with Shen in a game against Lucious, heavy scheme marker set up.

They were awesome.

Only reason I dont run them a ton anymore is because I am filling both merc slots.

I dont really see a true contender for them in that slot, maybe the screaming monkeys.

 

Why have you stopped running them?

Mostly because the way gg18 is. And I played a lot of Asami as I think she's probably top master in 10t.

[DonCheadle]

I think they're better than ever in GG18. 

Ply, Symbols, Ours, Guarded Treasure, Surround Them, Breakthrough, Search the Ruins, Take Prisoner, Public Demonstration are all great Strats and schemes for them. 

Premiere scheme runners, for which I'll gladly pay a premium. Also don't underestimate their Mask Trigger on their melee. 

[Mxbedlam]

5 hours ago, newsun said:

Mostly because the way gg18 is. And I played a lot of Asami as I think she's probably top master in 10t.

The way GG 18 is seems perfect for them. stout often df 7, 4" ml for surprise Ply for info grab, card filter or self heal, places. Ten Thunder bros are still the best general purpose 5ss minion in the game. That being said Yokai and Charm Warders are also amazing so I see the struggle, and playing Asami being able to summon Yokai makes them irrelevant but Bros are in no way bad now. 

[newsun]

Oh they are still good, just don't think they are 6ss worthy. Torakage might see play at 5ss.

[Da Git]

For Torakage, an awesome (IMH!O) would actually be an errata to the Smoke & Shadows upgrade to allow Torakage to take those 2 actions as a (0) Action. That way Torakage could still do everything on their card, then drop Smoke Bombs or Shadow Stride (or both with Trigger) out of there.  I think that would be awesome and really give Torakage a solid niche and worth their 6ss. 

I don't think it would be too powerful as you need a either Misaki, Ototo or Yamaziko (although she's now super-duper awesome!) to carry the upgrade, you still need a Mask to Shadow Stride (either via action or trigger) so you won't be able to spam it and there's still lots of competition for that 6ss slot.