Your ideas how to play vs unstopable crew

[Kadeton]

2 minutes ago, Platov said:

Somer-bowling is 1 AP. You first push him with bayou and banjonista, and them charge him with pig, 2 attacks from charge push you up to 16", and then you still have 1 AP, to do 2 more charges within 1st activation. Normal+Stampede one. And Master in the enemy deploy, well, it doesn't matter if you table opponent. And if he counters pigs - you are done anyway. It's kinda all-in surprise-attack list. You either table opponent turn 1, and he surrenders, or you surrender yourself.

I figured you would have to use that second AP to walk around Som'er and get into position to charge on the next activation - pushing into base contact with him when he's moving towards the enemy will almost always mean he'll be in the way of your charge.

It's the all-in surprise-attack aspect that I think is its weakness. The first few times you saw it, you'd get completely blown away, but it shouldn't take too long to figure out ways to stop it. It's a tactic that inherently becomes weaker the more you use it.

[looka]

7 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Killing the whisperer serms higly unlikely but the pig is up a fair bit on the duel and has some pretty nice triggers like slow or charging again straight back through the crew. Pretty decent result for a single obey even if it just causes a couple of damage points on something and a few cheated high cards from Som'er.

but you also spend a lot of it for this, risking, and to run so much forward you need at least to make up your mind) because you need to do this before he gives out reactivation,  this will give you -2 reactivation on pigs, but when this will give me the early 3 cards and the opportunity to reach the pigs wherever I need for 1 activation) but the idea is not without sense

[looka]

1 minute ago, Kadeton said:

I figured you would have to use that second AP to walk around Som'er and get into position to charge on the next activation - pushing into base contact with him when he's moving towards the enemy will almost always mean he'll be in the way of your charge.

is push into btb means a push on the shortest distances?

[Ludvig]

8 minutes ago, looka said:

is push into btb means a push on the shortest distances?

Yes, always when you push in any way i relatio to abother object or model. If Som'er pushes first he could push to the side so you have a clear path. That will significantly reduce your forward momentum but could help you get around bloking stuff.

[Kadeton]

Just now, looka said:

is push into btb means a push on the shortest distances?

Yep, a push into base contact is "in relation to another model". P. 43:

Quote

Some game effects require a model to be pushed in relation to another object, such as towards or away from another model. When this happens the model must move in a straight line while obeying these restrictions, moving directly towards (or away from) the specified object.

 

[Platov]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

Yes, always when you push in any way i relatio to abother object or model. Som'er pushes first though so he could push to the side so you have a clear path. That will significantly reduce your forward momentum but could help you get around bloking stuff.

Yep, exacly. And 16", in my experience, is overkill most of time. So you push 8", and then just squeal Somer out the way after second attack.

[looka]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

Yes, always when you push in any way i relatio to abother object or model. Som'er pushes first though so he could push to the side so you have a clear path. That will significantly reduce your forward momentum but could help you get around bloking stuff.

it's true if you need to move to the object or from it, here the condition is quite different, I do not violate it in any way if I finish pushing in the btb but sideways

[Ludvig]

3 minutes ago, looka said:

it's true if you need to move to the object or from it, here the condition is quite different, I do not violate it in any way if I finish pushing in the btb but sideways

Any push in relqtio to another object. How can iu reach base contact with somethig without in any way relaing to it? Towards and away are just a couple of examples given, not all the wordings it applies to.

[looka]

10 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Any push in relqtio to another object. How can iu reach base contact with somethig without in any way relaing to it? Towards and away are just a couple of examples given, not all the wordings it applies to.

in the rules it is written that I must move in a straight line fulfilling the condition of the push, and yes "to the mode"l and "from it" is а condition and an example, that does not quite have to do with the kind of push

[Ludvig]

32 minutes ago, looka said:

but you also spend a lot of it for this, risking, and to run so much forward you need at least to make up your mind) because you need to do this before he gives out reactivation,  this will give you -2 reactivation on pigs, but when this will give me the early 3 cards and the opportunity to reach the pigs wherever I need for 1 activation) but the idea is not without sense

Perdita can push 8" towards a family member without using an action and has companion so provided my first activation is to walk a family member up  she can now interrupt between any two activations in your crew even if I need to buff her in some way first. In stardard she can reach most things that are a single walk outside of the deployment zone with her shot, she might need a walk to obey if something is only about 4" out of its zone.

[Adran]

7 minutes ago, looka said:

in the rules it is written that I must move in a straight line fulfilling the condition of the push, and yes "to the mode"l and "from it" is а condition and an example, that does not quite have to do with the kind of push

The rules written say that you have to push to base contact, and the rules also say that a push to base contact is a push in relation to another object so must be performed in the shortest distance possible. 

That doesn't invalidate the list, but it does possibly explain why people here said positiong is hard, and you thought it was easy if you were mis-readign the push rules. Whilst it doesn't lower the Maximum effect of the list, it does make placement a much more exacting science.

[Ludvig]

From whqt ai gather there is concensus on this for the major tournaments in central europe, northern europe, the UK and US. It should really get an faq entry because it definitely comes up frequently enough.

[looka]

22 minutes ago, Adran said:

The rules written say that you have to push to base contact, and the rules also say that a push to base contact is a push in relation to another object so must be performed in the shortest distance possible. 

That doesn't invalidate the list, but it does possibly explain why people here said positiong is hard, and you thought it was easy if you were mis-readign the push rules. Whilst it doesn't lower the Maximum effect of the list, it does make placement a much more exacting science.

its sad ( it will be 5 inches shorter, or 8 if do not use the geometry (if there is enough space you can make the last push at right angles to the target, this will give us almost 13 inch of a total of just 3 extra inches in size 8 )
while pulling the last push can still be used to make a charge around the corner

[Adran]

22 minutes ago, looka said:

its sad ( it will be 5 inches shorter, or 8 if do not use the geometry (if there is enough space you can make the last push at right angles to the target, this will give us almost 13 inch of a total of just 3 extra inches in size 8 )
while pulling the last push can still be used to make a charge around the corner

If you use Bowled over, you have no say on the location of anything from that point. (Your point of control is where you put the pig in the first place)

So yes it can give you 8 " extra movement, allowing you to get round corners, but if your opponent has moved into a place where you can't easily push (prehaps there is a smaller model or a wall just behind) then you are stuck until you kill the target. Not always a huge cost, but if its preventing you charging, then you lose half your attack power. If its also in a place you can't stampede off, you are suddenly only 5 attacks instead of the 12 attacks that you could ideally get. 

 

[looka]

1 minute ago, Adran said:

If you use Bowled over, you have no say on the location of anything from that point. (Your point of control is where you put the pig in the first place)

Sommers as the defending side will get 1 push in any direction , thereby he can correct where he will be pushed by a pig
or have I again misused their trigger?

[Adran]

16 minutes ago, looka said:

Sommers as the defending side will get 1 push in any direction , thereby he can correct where he will be pushed by a pig
or have I again misused their trigger?

No, you're right with Loudest Squee will go any direction. Yes, you can use Sommer to direct you better

[looka]

and by the way this is not the only a way to deliver the pig) is also a way to deliver the master (if he does not need additional cards and he wants to personally take part in a fight)

[Ludvig]

Som'er himself is maybe even worse than a pig.  

[Haagrum]

11 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Som'er himself is maybe even worse than a pig.  

This much is certainly true.

Som'er isn't the Sandeep of Gremlins, but there's very little he can't do well. It's a little disheartening to think that he mght be a better pig wrangler than Ulix, though.

[Ludvig]

5 hours ago, Haagrum said:

This much is certainly true.

Som'er isn't the Sandeep of Gremlins, but there's very little he can't do well. It's a little disheartening to think that he mght be a better pig wrangler than Ulix, though.

Pretty sure Sandeep is the Som'er of arcanists: Summons from a very small pool of models, buffs friends, friends give him more ap, is better than every other master in faction and a dirty cheater. If you consider turbans hats he even has the biggest hat!

[daniello_s]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Pretty sure Sandeep is the Som'er of arcanists: Summons from a very small pool of models, buffs friends, friends give him more ap, is better than every other master in faction and a dirty cheater. If you consider turbans hats he even has the biggest hat!

Zipp laughs at the moment so much...

[Ludvig]

8 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Zipp laughs at the moment so much...

Zipp can go hang! There will always be Som'er! 

Does he even have a hat?! 

[green-n-dumb]

On 4/23/2018 at 1:24 PM, Platov said:

But in the end, such terrain is the exact reason, why turn 1 alpha works, and why such threads are born.

Imo, Hog Whisperer is OP and will get cuddles quite soon, tho. 

Played game with Ulix and Whisperer this weekend.
All game haven't 5 masks for casting reactivate.
So he is OP onlyon Somer double warpig lists which are pretty rare.

[daniello_s]

On 4/25/2018 at 12:26 PM, green-n-dumb said:

Played game with Ulix and Whisperer this weekend.
All game haven't 5 masks for casting reactivate.
So he is OP onlyon Somer double warpig lists which are pretty rare.

And dependable on the terrain setting and opponent crews.

[teddyclaw]

Hi everyone,

I played a game with the very list from the original post. Admittedly, I went in it without any practice with this list, but it was very educational regardless. The table was not one I would call particularly obstructed in terms of terrain. In fact I am sure a gunline would have worked very well in this one. But there was a lot of smaller terrain pieces making pushes kind of tricky. The opponent was Nellie with 2 or 3 reporters, Franc, Peacekeeper, Phiona and a watcher.

What I learned:

1. This crew needs practice. A lot!

2. Setting the crew up even just deployment-wise can be very tough if the terrain is against you. You will probably always be deploying your models very close together, but you really have to pay attention to the distances between all the models to get all the passive effects right.

3. In order to geht the full effect of the card draw, you have to be very speific with you activation order. There might be some room for error, but that is probably where the practice part comes in.

4. In the very beginning, before the drawing engine get going, if you want to get the full effect of all the pushes, summons and ensure the crier turns into a bayou gremlin, some luck is stell involved regarding drawing the right suits and high enough cards in general.

5. Once the card drawing is done, you hand is absolutely amazing! I am sure you could use very similar card draw without the pigs and get great results as well.

6. If the terrain is against you, you will still have a chance to reach at least part of the opponents crew turn 1, but the effectiveness is reduced a lot (I took out only 1 reportes and 1 watcher). 

7. Timing for using One Pig against the world is not as straight forward as you might think.

8. Once the hand from turn one wears off, the effectiveness of the crew diminishes fast.

9. Armor (Peacekeer) and High defense (Phiona near terrain with Francs buff) can completely stopp your attack.

10. It is amazingly good fun

 

I will keep playing this list for a bit and see how it performs with more experience on my part and a less bad matchups, as soon as I can and keep you posted.

 

 

See you

Teddy